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Luongo Thread: Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For (Mod Warning in OP)

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11-21-2012, 10:02 AM
  #926
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Kostitsyn is not a player .that we need Gillis is trying to add a player with an intimidation factor that can play in a top-6 role. As no one was offering one for Hodgson, he took the next best thing and took a prospect who projects like that. If Gillis traded Hodgson for a Kostitsyn-like forward you might have a point. But he didn't

Also, much as I hate to say it, but Gillis has a thing about avoiding Russian players.


You are shifting the goal posts yet again. First, it was established talent possibly available at the same time, and now it's targeting players of need based on skill set. Which is it?



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Yeah, and Kadri could bust. You either think they will perform or they won't. I don't see why Lupul flopping is any more likely than Kadri busting, I think both are fairly unlikely.


If they are unlikely, wouldn't that mean that Kadri will close the gap on Lupul? And if that's the case, why not get extras in the process? Answer: Because you think Lupul's stellar career consistency means that he will put up PPG next year in a VAN jersey while taking him away from his meal ticket Kessel amirite?



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Well I disagree. I'm not going to assume a player is going to get injured and not trade for him because of that. And the "feeding of Kessel" argument works both ways. He also played with Bozak. Imagine if he got to play with a legitimate centre?


You can ignore injury history, GMs don't. In fact, this was the reason Gillis passed on Mitchell to go after Ballard.


Your Bozak argument is just plain silly. Not even going to bother.



Quote:
It's possible he's played his off-wing with some success in the past, but I really don't see it as being any significant advantage over Lupul who has done so at the NHL level as well.


I thought Kadri has never played RW in his life? Haha



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Of course 5 1sts is more valuable. But that wasn't what I asked. 10 2nds is probably more than fair "value" for Luongo, it simply doesn't address our needs as well, as even if we do end up getting 2 or 3 impact players it won't be that beneficial to us, as it doesn't meet our needs as well as a return of even, say, 3 1sts. And 3 1sts doesn't meet our needs as a return like Phil Kessel.

Just because the value might be there doesn't mean you should pull the trigger.


Lupul or Kadri++, both are about value. Neither addresses a need better than the other as Lupul is a LWer and Kadri is a mature prospect. You are going for value here regardless with TO. No one is an exact fit. Now Shane Doan would be an exact fit that addresses a need. Lupul is not that.



Quote:
Fair enough, although I still don't see that as any advantage over Lupul. Both can play either wing. And I have no idea where you got this idea that offensive players automatically work better on their off-wing. Daniel Sedin shoots left, plays left. Corey Perry shoots right, plays right. It's completely a matter of preference to the player.



It's "easier" to play offense on your off-wing. Have you played the game? The reason is that it's easier for shooting angles _and_ it opens up the back-hand more. If you are on your natural wing, then you have to turn up-ice to dish on your backhand. All that said, playmaking on your natural wing is more comfortable because you are passing inside to the middle of the ice.



The reason guys like Daniel plays LW, IMO, is that he's a strong playmaker and he's on his forehand in the defensive zone. Same thing with Perry, right shot on the right wing in the Dzone, and he can pass well.



Guys like Kadri and Lupul just seem to employ more of their tools on their off-wing, from what I've seen. Lupul's strong season last year only supports this further.

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11-21-2012, 10:03 AM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
66 games....67 points and +1 on a defensively crap team and a guy who pubicly thanked BB for the opportunity...yup, real problem for us.
Lupul has had issues with more than one coach, in fact every coach that has asked him to play defence. He can be a good player on a bad team, I doubt he can be a good player on a great team.

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11-21-2012, 10:05 AM
  #928
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
66 games....67 points and +1 on a defensively crap team and a guy who pubicly thanked BB for the opportunity...yup, real problem for us.


In fairness, is being a +1 as a 1st line LWer good or bad?



Lupul has always been suspect defensively LL. For a team that scored well, but couldn't keep the puck out of the net, it's only fair to point the finger at your more defensively suspect "leaders". To contrast, the Sedins get ripped here for their defense and they were +23 and +14 respectively last year, and have been monster plus players overall.

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11-21-2012, 10:11 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Lupul has had issues with more than one coach, in fact every coach that has asked him to play defence. He can be a good player on a bad team, I doubt he can be a good player on a great team.
This always makes me giggle, a guy is a PPG player and on the plus side defensively on a bad team, yet somehow he will be a terrible player on a good team. And as far as coaching, Carlyle admitted he was at fault with their issues.

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11-21-2012, 10:19 AM
  #930
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
This always makes me giggle, a guy is a PPG player and on the plus side defensively on a bad team, yet somehow he will be a terrible player on a good team. And as far as coaching, Carlyle admitted he was at fault with their issues.
It always makes me giggle when bad teams give their best players a pass from playing defence because the team "wasn't good defensively". Guess what? Your team isn't going to be any good defensively as long as the guys playing 20+ minutes aren't buying in. Players that are suspect defensively don't get the opportunity to put up points on good teams, because they don't see the ice.

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11-21-2012, 10:21 AM
  #931
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
In fairness, is being a +1 as a 1st line LWer good or bad?



Lupul has always been suspect defensively LL. For a team that scored well, but couldn't keep the puck out of the net, it's only fair to point the finger at your more defensively suspect "leaders". To contrast, the Sedins get ripped here for their defense and they were +23 and +14 respectively last year, and have been monster plus players overall.
Also in fairness, he plays with Kessel as well as on a team that is hideous on defense. Add to that our goalies couldn't stop a beach ball and our coach couldn't spell defense let alone put it in his system....we played from behind ALOT forcing us to take more chances....well, you get my point. I admit he isn't stellar on D, but there are ALOT of factors here.

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11-21-2012, 10:33 AM
  #932
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Also in fairness, he plays with Kessel as well as on a team that is hideous on defense. Add to that our goalies couldn't stop a beach ball and our coach couldn't spell defense let alone put it in his system....we played from behind ALOT forcing us to take more chances....well, you get my point. I admit he isn't stellar on D, but there are ALOT of factors here.

Agreed, as long as he is recognized as one of those factors. The extent of which can be debated to no end.

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11-21-2012, 10:37 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
It always makes me giggle when bad teams give their best players a pass from playing defence because the team "wasn't good defensively". Guess what? Your team isn't going to be any good defensively as long as the guys playing 20+ minutes aren't buying in. Players that are suspect defensively don't get the opportunity to put up points on good teams, because they don't see the ice.
Well...i can't argue that. So i've compiled a short list of other players you would laugh at as a return:

Kovalchuk -9
Ovechkin -8
Rick Nash -19
Shane Doan -8
John Tavares -6
Eric Staal -20
Zach Parise -5
Jarome Iginla -10

Hell, Stamkos was on the ice for 97 goals and ended up a crappy +7.....


Last edited by Liferleafer: 11-21-2012 at 10:48 AM.
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11-21-2012, 10:48 AM
  #934
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Originally Posted by Andy Dufresne View Post
Except you fail to mention that our 3rd line almost never got scored on. Lapierre was on the ice for 2 ES goals against through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs (Hansen 4, Torres 5). That's a mind blowing stat considering that line was used against every top 3 line the opponents iced, and almost never started in the offensive zone. They scored more than that themselves no matter how paltry their offensive production looks.

It's about out-scoring the opponent. Period. If you win 2-1 that's not better or worse than winning 5-4. Generally I hate the +- stat when it's used without context. The 5 man unit of Sedins/Burrows with Edler/Ehrhoff gave up an absurd number of goals at ES that nobody gave a **** about while we were on the run up to the finals. Maybe because they still looked like heroes in any fantasy hockey pool? I'm sure that doesn't apply to you, but there are some posters here who judge only by goals scored without applying any context to those stats.

I agree completely with the need to add somebody/anybody who can play with, and add to Kesler's line, but there's no need to rip what our 3rd line did during the cup run. It's no great feat that Ehrhoff outscored those guys when he was singularly responible for more goals against than all of them combined. Cups are won 5 on 5, so even if the reffing was complete *******, it still wasn't unexpected.
I don't believe I ripped on the 3rd line. I basically stated that the gap between the top 4 forwards and the 3rd line was huge.

Higgins and Raymond needed to be upgraded on that line, Raymond has with Booth, now we're counting on Gillis to upgrade Higgins on the 2nd line, so the 3rd line WILL continue to dominate 5 on 5 matchups - hopefully while not sheltering a rookie 3c (or at least in hopes the rookie 3c's skating and defensive acumen won't require sheltering).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
No...the rise of Reilly means we have 2 solid young D men. Franson is unsigned...so we can't deal any defensemen.
Sorry, you're the most reasonable leaf fan of them all on HF, but if I'm moving a player who over the past 6 years has basically been our team MVP - I need something of value.

That's Gardiner...it's not guarantee we get him, but you bet your bottom dollar that's the kid Gillis is after.

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11-21-2012, 10:49 AM
  #935
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well...i can't argue that. So i've compiled a short list of other players you would laugh at as a return:

Kovalchuk -9
Ovechkin -8
Rick Nash -19
Shane Doan -8
John Tavares -6
Eric Staal -20
Zach Parise -5
Jarome Iginla -10

Hell, Stamkos was on the ice for 97 goals and ended up a crappy +7.....
I don't judge players with +/-, you shouldn't either.

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11-21-2012, 10:54 AM
  #936
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+/- is just a bad stat. Better ways to judge a players defensive abilities.

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11-21-2012, 10:54 AM
  #937
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I don't judge players with +/-, you shouldn't either.
And yet you tell me Lupul's +1 is horrible considering the minutes he plays....make up my mind.

Edit: Bleach pointed it out.

Also, i agree that +/- is a bad stat, why....because there is to many factors.

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11-21-2012, 11:26 AM
  #938
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'Nuck fans are screaming for a 2nd line rw that can score goals. Put Lupul with Kes or Burr and his defensive game won't matter. This team needs more goals in the playoffs. He's the only NHL player that would upgrade the Canucks (Burke will not give up Gardiner, Grabs, Phaneuf or Kessel). If you want a main piece from TO, he's about the best you will get. Kadri will take more development time. Lupul is the guy for right now.

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11-21-2012, 11:34 AM
  #939
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Originally Posted by blendini View Post
'Nuck fans are screaming for a 2nd line rw that can score goals. Put Lupul with Kes or Burr and his defensive game won't matter. This team needs more goals in the playoffs. He's the only NHL player that would upgrade the Canucks (Burke will not give up Gardiner, Grabs, Phaneuf or Kessel). If you want a main piece from TO, he's about the best you will get. Kadri will take more development time. Lupul is the guy for right now.


Not since his rookie season has Lupul cracked more than 25 goals. Without Kessel and 1st line ice, or ice in general due to defensive deficiencies, and switching wings to RW, maybe that drops to 20 goals? Fair?


Next, his career tracks a 1:1~ goals to assist ratio, except last year (outlier). So let's say he gets 20:25 as a _2nd_ line RWer here (he's better on the LW btw). What's better? A no D, injury prone, inconsistent 45 point player or Chris Higgins at 43 points playing his heart out all over the ice?


I'll hang up and listen.

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11-21-2012, 11:40 AM
  #940
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
No...the rise of Reilly means we have 2 solid young D men. Franson is unsigned...so we can't deal any defensemen.
Wouldn't blame you for not wanting Franson. Slow as a slug, and doesn't know where the D-zone is.

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11-21-2012, 11:46 AM
  #941
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Not since his rookie season has Lupul cracked more than 25 goals. Without Kessel and 1st line ice, or ice in general due to defensive deficiencies, and switching wings to RW, maybe that drops to 20 goals? Fair?


Next, his career tracks a 1:1~ goals to assist ratio, except last year (outlier). So let's say he gets 20:25 as a _2nd_ line RWer here (he's better on the LW btw). What's better? A no D, injury prone, inconsistent 45 point player or Chris Higgins at 43 points playing his heart out all over the ice?


I'll hang up and listen.
If we are talking only points, he has a carreer of 443 games, 296 points for .668. In 82 games that equates to an average of 54 points per season. Put him with decent linemates...it goes up.

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11-21-2012, 11:49 AM
  #942
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Wouldn't blame you for not wanting Franson. Slow as a slug, and doesn't know where the D-zone is.
At this point it isn't even a matter of "want", if he doesn't sign our 3rd pairing is Komi/???. We would have to go with Ranger/Holzer/Blacker....alot of question marks.

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11-21-2012, 11:53 AM
  #943
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If we are talking only points, he has a carreer of 443 games, 296 points for .668. In 82 games that equates to an average of 54 points per season. Put him with decent linemates...it goes up.


No. You cannot simply average his PPG because injury concerns with him are a real factor. I'm going based on what he has accrued per season per TSN.ca.



This guy has worn out his welcome with ANA, EDM and PHI. I understand you trying to make a case for him LL, but it's a bit disingenuous when you know TO got him as a salary dump. Lupul is not a regular, consistent 54 point player and we both know this.

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11-21-2012, 12:01 PM
  #944
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
If we are talking only points, he has a carreer of 443 games, 296 points for .668. In 82 games that equates to an average of 54 points per season. Put him with decent linemates...it goes up.
NOt that it matters, but he's played 515 NHL games and scored 323 points as per: http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8470207

The ratio drops to around 51 points, from your 54 points/season....


Problem with assuming you're getting a 54 point season, is that this player has played over 70 games in a season ONCE in the last 5 years.

UFA, with significant injury history, up and down consistency level, and no attention to the defensive end of the rink makes him a player I have no use for, especially when Leaf fans call him their best player, or top 3 player.....we don't value him that way, and honestly I'd much rather have Higgins next to Kesler, especially at the $2.5M savings.

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11-21-2012, 12:04 PM
  #945
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
NOt that it matters, but he's played 515 NHL games and scored 323 points as per: http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8470207

The ratio drops to around 51 points, from your 54 points/season....


Problem with assuming you're getting a 54 point season, is that this player has played over 70 games in a season ONCE in the last 5 years.

UFA, with significant injury history, up and down consistency level, and no attention to the defensive end of the rink makes him a player I have no use for, especially when Leaf fans call him their best player, or top 3 player.....we don't value him that way, and honestly I'd much rather have Higgins next to Kesler, especially at the $2.5M savings.
My apologies...i missed the 03/04 year.


Last edited by Liferleafer: 11-21-2012 at 12:11 PM.
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11-21-2012, 12:05 PM
  #946
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
NOt that it matters, but he's played 515 NHL games and scored 323 points as per: http://mapleleafs.nhl.com/club/player.htm?id=8470207

The ratio drops to around 51 points, from your 54 points/season....


Problem with assuming you're getting a 54 point season, is that this player has played over 70 games in a season ONCE in the last 5 years.

UFA, with significant injury history, up and down consistency level, and no attention to the defensive end of the rink makes him a player I have no use for, especially when Leaf fans call him their best player, or top 3 player.....we don't value him that way, and honestly I'd much rather have Higgins next to Kesler, especially at the $2.5M savings.


Need to add the point about him switching to his weaker wing as well.


But beyond that, this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Less than 1st line ice, less than 1st unit PP time, lesser _offensive_ player than Kessel to feed off of, more defensive responsibility, inability to stay healthy for a full season, inconsistent as ever, and there's no reason to see a drastic point difference between him and Higgins. And if that's the case, I'm taking Higgins every time... Which makes Lupul not necessary here.



In fact, this pushes me even more in the camp of targeting futures and mature prospects from TO than before. Which just so happens to coincide more with TO's needs as he still is their first line LW. They value him in that role.

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11-21-2012, 12:10 PM
  #947
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
No. You cannot simply average his PPG because injury concerns with him are a real factor. I'm going based on what he has accrued per season per TSN.ca.



This guy has worn out his welcome with ANA, EDM and PHI. I understand you trying to make a case for him LL, but it's a bit disingenuous when you know TO got him as a salary dump. Lupul is not a regular, consistent 54 point player and we both know this.
Did you not tell me yesterday that a useful productive player can't be a salary dump? I'm not trying to make a case, i'm good with keeping him...works great with Kessel. I'm just trying to give what's being asked (top 6 scorer). You guys clearly don't want Mac, Kuli is only a 7 goal scorer according to some, and Kessel is out of the question. That leaves Lupul.

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11-21-2012, 12:12 PM
  #948
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
No. You cannot simply average his PPG because injury concerns with him are a real factor. I'm going based on what he has accrued per season per TSN.ca.



This guy has worn out his welcome with ANA, EDM and PHI. I understand you trying to make a case for him LL, but it's a bit disingenuous when you know TO got him as a salary dump. Lupul is not a regular, consistent 54 point player and we both know this.
OK, so if this is the case, then TO does not have a main piece that the Nucks would want. This means the trade would be their 1st + prospect(s). Only packaging these players in a trade will help the current Canucks team. Wherever Lu ends up, I think most Nuck fans believe that he is at least worth a goal scoring or play making 2nd RW. I'm not convinced that TO is the trading partner that can get us that.

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11-21-2012, 12:18 PM
  #949
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OK, so if this is the case, then TO does not have a main piece that the Nucks would want. This means the trade would be their 1st + prospect(s). Only packaging these players in a trade will help the current Canucks team. Wherever Lu ends up, I think most Nuck fans believe that he is at least worth a goal scoring or play making 2nd RW. I'm not convinced that TO is the trading partner that can get us that.
According to 98% of your fanbase...i gurantee they aren't. I am very curious as to what team is going to give a better than 55 point winger who is great defensively and not UFA. I don't see FLA,EDM,CLB,SJ or Chicago.

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11-21-2012, 12:23 PM
  #950
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Did you not tell me yesterday that a useful productive player can't be a salary dump? I'm not trying to make a case, i'm good with keeping him...works great with Kessel. I'm just trying to give what's being asked (top 6 scorer). You guys clearly don't want Mac, Kuli is only a 7 goal scorer according to some, and Kessel is out of the question. That leaves Lupul.


A useful player yes. Was Lupul considered useful at the time he was traded with Gardiner, or not? Or was he considered as money to take on in order to get Gardiner. Be honest.

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