HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Luongo Thread: Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For (Mod Warning in OP)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-21-2012, 06:09 PM
  #976
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Can you show me where I said that this was the requirement? That I have insisted on a 60+ point winger who is also great at defense?
In fact, I have opted for the opposite. Mostly because TO doesn't have that player. No, give me futures that we can develop. Clearly, it's the best fit asset wise.



On Gillis's offer: That was the rumour. Like it or not, that's what's out there on the internet.


And just to add some perspective: A 35 yr old Kaberle on an expiring contract got a 1st and Colborne at the deadline. Something akin to half of that Gillis demand. Is Luongo twice the player Kaberle is?
Not even close. Toronto's first (5th overall as it was at the draft Gillis made his demand) Is a dam sight different than Boston's. And Gardiner is leaps and bounds better than Colborne. So half...i think not.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 06:15 PM
  #977
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I was refuting the basis of your argument which was "Why didn't we trade Hodgson for an established player instead of Kassian?", when you have no idea if any established top-6 players were even offered. Obviously If Gillis were offered, say Kostitsyn for Hodgson he wouldn't do it, because that doesn't fill a need. Kassian (potentially) could. And the player he projects to be like Gillis flat out said couldn't be acquired any way other than developing them ourselves.


Based on your logic above, is it safe to conclude that prospect Hodgson carried more value than established player Kostitsyn? Why is that? Forget "need" for a moment. Why does a prospect carry more weight than an established top6 NHLer here?



Quote:
I'd base it more on the results of our team as a hole, namely, when Daniel went down, our offense dried up. Obviously we need some more players able to contribute offensively now to give us the best chance at winning.


But that's not a "hole", that's an area that can be improved, it isn't something that's missing. It's something that can be made better, it is not absent.





Quote:
No.
So no roster player + Kadri combo equates to Lupul? Ok. Regardless, if any are close then it's a clear sign we can move off Lupul as the sticking point right? At least Kulemin + Kadri trumps his value, and I'd much rather take them on than target Lupul.




Quote:
But you have no actual evidence as to why Kadri would do better on the right than the left other than your own opinion, correct?


Lupul is proven to be better on the LW. Kadri has played all 3 positions, but hasn't proven where he's better. Not enough information yet. They've tried him everywhere and will continue to do so. Basically, I know I'm right about Lupul based on his track record. The jury is till out Kadri. So you can look at it as Kadri is a question mark, with logic dictating he could be better on the RW, while Lupul is a known on the LW.



Quote:
Here's a quote from Lupul:


So basically he was stuck on the third line in Anaheim because Carlyle refused to give him a chance on his off-wing. Obviously he was wrong, as the season showed. But it doesn't mean Lupul on the left has a higher upside than Lupul on the right, if he was stuck behind Perry and Selanne on the depth chart. This is where I don't follow you. There is no reason to assume that Kadri's upside on the right side is any higher than Lupul's. And certainly not within the next 2-3 seasons when we have our best shot at winning the cup.

And there's really no need to be rude. It's simply a discussion on who makes more sense for us to target.



I don't know if you realize this, but your posts don't come off any better to me.


On to the point: The article flat admits Carlyle was wrong for forcing Lupul to the RW...? You still think Lupul has equal upside on the right even though his best statistical season came at LW? Even though he himself wanted the chance on the left, but was denied? Even though it is implied by that quote that it benefits the skill game which Lupul eventually showed to employ? Why? When the evidence actually of him breaking out there speaks to the exact opposite?



Skill pre-requisite to play the off wing (quote) + Kadri is a skill-based player = play him on the RW. Make sense?


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-21-2012 at 06:20 PM.
Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 06:18 PM
  #978
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not even close. Toronto's first (5th overall as it was at the draft Gillis made his demand) Is a dam sight different than Boston's. And Gardiner is leaps and bounds better than Colborne. So half...i think not.

What about Bozak + 2013 1st, is that close to half? Keep in mind that there are a few here that think Bozak is a replacement level player (despite where he plays on the (Leafs) and expect the 1st to be mid-pack at best.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 06:24 PM
  #979
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
What about Bozak + 2013 1st, is that close to half? Keep in mind that there are a few here that think Bozak is a replacement level player (despite where he plays on the (Leafs) and expect the 1st to be mid-pack at best.
No it's not half when there is still Gardiner and Frattin left in the demand. I think Gardinet alone is worth a late pick and a prospect like Colborne.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 06:32 PM
  #980
Bleach Clean
Registered User
 
Bleach Clean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 15,702
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
No it's not half when there is still Gardiner and Frattin left in the demand. I think Gardinet alone is worth a late pick and a prospect like Colborne.


So Gardiner skews value. I get that, but I was just speaking about Bozak + the 1st. 2 of 4 pieces. Is it similar? I would say so. And if it is, the calibre of player Luongo is + him being locked into contract + 2 yrs younger than Kaberle and you can kind of see where Gillis is coming from.



It's high, but is it exorbitant? No. Based on value given in the Kaberle deal and the Nash deal, no.

Bleach Clean is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 06:42 PM
  #981
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
So Gardiner skews value. I get that, but I was just speaking about Bozak + the 1st. 2 of 4 pieces. Is it similar? I would say so. And if it is, the calibre of player Luongo is + him being locked into contract + 2 yrs younger than Kaberle and you can kind of see where Gillis is coming from.



It's high, but is it exorbitant? No. Based on value given in the Kaberle deal and the Nash deal, no.
Wow Bleach. Let me see if i can explain this, Kabs got us Boston's 1st the year they won the cup (thus very late 1st) and a B prospect that was at least 3years minimum away (Colborne at the time). How is that remotely close to a 5th overall and a proven 2/3 center? It is also important to remember that Boston was not taking on 10 years worth of Kabs.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 06:44 PM
  #982
Vankiller Whale
Propaganda Minister
 
Vankiller Whale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,222
vCash: 900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Based on your logic above, is it safe to conclude that prospect Hodgson carried more value than established player Kostitsyn? Why is that? Forget "need" for a moment. Why does a prospect carry more weight than an established top6 NHLer here?
Because "value" or "weight" is an abstract notion. Filling needs is what makes one's team more competitive(either in the short term or long term, depending on the team's goal).




Quote:
But that's not a "hole", that's an area that can be improved, it isn't something that's missing. It's something that can be made better, it is not absent.
Well, I suppose it's simply semantics, but by your logic the Leafs don't have a hole at number 1 C, as the player there isn't absent, they have Bozak.(and if you want to use Kassian to fill the hole, they have Kadri). As a cup contender we should have higher standards on what our forward group should look like.


Quote:
So no roster player + Kadri combo equates to Lupul? Ok. Regardless, if any are close then it's a clear sign we can move off Lupul as the sticking point right? At least Kulemin + Kadri trumps his value, and I'd much rather take them on than target Lupul.
Sorry, if I wasn't more clear, I was responding to your direct question of if Bozak/Macarthur + Kadri is better than Lupul, which is a no imo. Kulemin + Kadri I would prefer to Lupul, but Lupul + Blacker I would prefer to that.





Quote:
Lupul is proven to be better on the LW. Kadri has played all 3 positions, but hasn't proven where he's better. Not enough information yet. They've tried him everywhere and will continue to do so. Basically, I know I'm right about Lupul based on his track record. The jury is till out Kadri. So you can look at it as Kadri is a question mark, with logic dictating he could be better on the RW, while Lupul is a known on the LW.



I don't know if you realize this, but your posts don't come off any better to me.


On to the point: The article flat admits Carlyle was wrong for forcing Lupul to the RW...? You still think Lupul has equal upside on the right even though his best statistical season came at LW? Even though he himself wanted the chance on the left, but was denied? Even though it is implied by that quote that it benefits the skill game which Lupul eventually showed to employ? Why? When the evidence actually of him breaking out there speaks to the exact opposite?



Skill pre-requisite to play the off wing (quote) + Kadri is a skill-based player = play him on the RW. Make sense?
Lupul's track record is that he produced more getting top line minutes as a LW than playing behind Perry and Selanne as a RW. I think that his jump in production is far more related to his increased amount of quality ice time as opposed to switching sides.

Also, just because it requires more skill to play the offwing doesn't mean skilled players automatically do better there.

And the biggest point for me, which you've never yet addressed, is even if Kadri turns out to be the perfect RWer, he wouldn't be hitting his prime until half our core is out of their primes.

Vankiller Whale is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 06:49 PM
  #983
craigcaulks*
Registered Luser.
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: East Van!
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,000
vCash: 500
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

craigcaulks* is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 07:20 PM
  #984
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Wow Bleach. Let me see if i can explain this, Kabs got us Boston's 1st the year they won the cup (thus very late 1st) and a B prospect that was at least 3years minimum away (Colborne at the time). How is that remotely close to a 5th overall and a proven 2/3 center? It is also important to remember that Boston was not taking on 10 years worth of Kabs.
.....but, but I thought Colborne was Boston's top prospect at the time, you know like Rielly is for you.

The 1st was a 1st, it could have ended up being 17th overall.

So if Luongo was a UFA in one years time, you'd pay more?

arsmaster is online now  
Old
11-21-2012, 07:29 PM
  #985
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
.....but, but I thought Colborne was Boston's top prospect at the time, you know like Rielly is for you.

The 1st was a 1st, it could have ended up being 17th overall.

So if Luongo was a UFA in one years time, you'd pay more?
Colborne was not there best prospect, perhaps you've heard of Seguin? And ya, if i was in Boston's position (ready to make a cup run)and was a goalie away, sure i'd pay a 1st and a b prospect, after all, the 1st would be late.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 07:36 PM
  #986
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Colborne was not there best prospect, perhaps you've heard of Seguin? And ya, if i was in Boston's position (ready to make a cup run)and was a goalie away, sure i'd pay a 1st and a b prospect, after all, the 1st would be late.
So including Seguin as a prospect makes Gardiner a prospect. Cheers

arsmaster is online now  
Old
11-21-2012, 07:49 PM
  #987
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
So including Seguin as a prospect makes Gardiner a prospect. Cheers
Fantastic...so include Gardiner in our list of prospects we won't deal for Luongo. You can put his name right beside Reilly's.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:00 PM
  #988
Kid_Roll
Registered User
 
Kid_Roll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,538
vCash: 500
I always get a kick out of fans assuring either side who won't be traded.

Kid_Roll is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:05 PM
  #989
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
I always get a kick out of fans assuring either side who won't be traded.
I know Burke's word is worth crap, but he stated (early in the Nash talks) that as soon as Gardiner's name was mentioned he walked away. One can assume the same will hold true here.It's not even about value or me being a dick. Our defense needs Gardiner after trading Schenn. We literally cannot move another D.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:10 PM
  #990
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 16,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I know Burke's word is worth crap, but he stated (early in the Nash talks) that as soon as Gardiner's name was mentioned he walked away. One can assume the same will hold true here.It's not even about value or me being a dick. Our defense needs Gardiner after trading Schenn. We literally cannot move another D.
It's true. Burke walked away as soon as Howson informed him Nash wanted no part of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Drop the Sopel is online now  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:13 PM
  #991
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
It's true. Burke walked away as soon as Howson informed him Nash wanted no part of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
You'll notice i said early in the talks...like before the list.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:16 PM
  #992
SunshineRays
Registered User
 
SunshineRays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 864
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
It's true. Burke walked away as soon as Howson informed him Nash wanted no part of the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Exactly. Nash wasn't coming to any CDN team. No GM in Canada had any chance no matter who was included in the package.

SunshineRays is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:17 PM
  #993
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I know Burke's word is worth crap, but he stated (early in the Nash talks) that as soon as Gardiner's name was mentioned he walked away. One can assume the same will hold true here.It's not even about value or me being a dick. Our defense needs Gardiner after trading Schenn. We literally cannot move another D.
Probably because he didn't really need a winger. He needs a #1 goalie.

arsmaster is online now  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:25 PM
  #994
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Probably because he didn't really need a winger. He needs a #1 goalie.
I actually agree with you. It"s a shame we can't afford the one you are offering.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:39 PM
  #995
Drop the Sopel
Feaster famine
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: calgary
Posts: 16,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I actually agree with you. It"s a shame we can't afford the one you are offering.
Burke can't afford not to pay a high price for Luongo.

If he does balk, it could spell a mass exodus from Toronto, with Burke leading the way.

If Burke wants to attract any talent to Toronto or retain his top players then making the playoffs is an absolute must.

Drop the Sopel is online now  
Old
11-21-2012, 08:59 PM
  #996
Scottrockztheworld*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I know Burke's word is worth crap, but he stated (early in the Nash talks) that as soon as Gardiner's name was mentioned he walked away. One can assume the same will hold true here.It's not even about value or me being a dick. Our defense needs Gardiner after trading Schenn. We literally cannot move another D.
Its true.

Didn't he state that Luke Schenn wouldn't be traded? ... only to be traded to Philly

Scottrockztheworld* is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 09:05 PM
  #997
Hammer79
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kelowna
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,972
vCash: 500
It's pretty hard to gauge Luongo's trade value before a new CBA gets put in place.

Hammer79 is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 09:10 PM
  #998
Liferleafer
RIP Pat
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 10,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Burke can't afford not to pay a high price for Luongo.

If he does balk, it could spell a mass exodus from Toronto, with Burke leading the way.

If Burke wants to attract any talent to Toronto or retain his top players then making the playoffs is an absolute must.
You guys seem to remember Burke from his days there...tell me, when did he ever overpay for personal reasons? Burke has been asked that question by every local sports statio. and has laughed loudly at the notion of overpaying to save his job. If that is what you are counting on......

Listen guys, i'm not trying to be a dick. Toronto can't give you what you expect...we don't have it...it's that simple. Does that mean we miss on Luongo...maybe...does it mean we miss the playoffs...possibly. But reality cannot be changed, we cannot, as a 25th place team, give up the players that will make the 2 time Prez trophy winners better. It isn't fans being stupborn, it isn't about overating our players....we simply do not have those expendable pieces.


Last edited by Liferleafer: 11-21-2012 at 09:20 PM.
Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 09:30 PM
  #999
racerjoe
Registered User
 
racerjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,154
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You guys seem to remember Burke from his days there...tell me, when did he ever overpay for personal reasons? Burke has been asked that question by every local sports statio. and has laughed loudly at the notion of overpaying to save his job. If that is what you are counting on......

Listen guys, i'm not trying to be a dick. Toronto can't give you what you expect...we don't have it...it's that simple. Does that mean we miss on Luongo...maybe...does it mean we miss the playoffs...possibly. But reality cannot be changed, we cannot, as a 25th place team, give up the players that will make the 2 time Prez trophy winners better. It isn't fans being stupborn, it isn't about overating our players....we simply do not have those expendable pieces.
You have for sure been better then most if not all, I think some get frustrated by some of the low ball offers. I agree that TO does not have the pieces to put us over the top at this moment. That is not to say they don't have pieces we can't use to help us, we just have to learn that it will come in pieces that will help in the future, and maybe via another trade.

racerjoe is offline  
Old
11-21-2012, 09:42 PM
  #1000
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 18,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You guys seem to remember Burke from his days there...tell me, when did he ever overpay for personal reasons? Burke has been asked that question by every local sports statio. and has laughed loudly at the notion of overpaying to save his job. If that is what you are counting on......

Listen guys, i'm not trying to be a dick. Toronto can't give you what you expect...we don't have it...it's that simple. Does that mean we miss on Luongo...maybe...does it mean we miss the playoffs...possibly. But reality cannot be changed, we cannot, as a 25th place team, give up the players that will make the 2 time Prez trophy winners better. It isn't fans being stupborn, it isn't about overating our players....we simply do not have those expendable pieces.
The difference is what you call overpaying and what it will take...

Fair value isn't overpaying...superstar goalies don't come cheap.

Ps. If you don't have expendable pieces that improve the Canucks, as reasonable as you are....why are you still here?

arsmaster is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:19 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.