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Off-season madness the 2nd: Jays get Reyes, Johnson, Buehrle, Bonifacio

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Old
11-11-2012, 01:28 PM
  #151
stempniaksen
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It would be nice to get two solid arms in free agency, but I still like our rotation if we can get a true number one guy and slot everyone else in behind him.

FA Signing
Morrow
Romero
Alvarez
Happ

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11-11-2012, 01:31 PM
  #152
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Because we know we cant get the best FAs here. Either cause we can attract them or because we cant afford them.
It sucks but the Jays tend to have to try to get players off the scrap heap.
Well, that's simply not true. We appear to have the budget to compete for guys like Sanchez and Jackson, according to both Anthopolous and Beeston. And plenty of FAs have signed here over the years, they'll follow the dollars.

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11-11-2012, 01:31 PM
  #153
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Because we know we cant get the best FAs here. Either cause we can attract them or because we cant afford them.
It sucks but the Jays tend to have to try to get players off the scrap heap.
Bay and wells are not an upgrade.

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11-11-2012, 01:35 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Because we know we cant get the best FAs here. Either cause we can attract them or because we cant afford them.
It sucks but the Jays tend to have to try to get players off the scrap heap.
So because the Jays can't get players like Grienke or Hamilton, they should resort to picking some of the worst players in the league?

They can still attract good players... it's just that guys like Grienke/Hamilton are out of their price range like they are for most of the teams around the league.

Oh and uhh... there is also something called making trades so yeah, they can pick-up players that don't completely suck off that too.

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11-11-2012, 01:38 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by stempniaksen View Post
It would be nice to get two solid arms in free agency, but I still like our rotation if we can get a true number one guy and slot everyone else in behind him.

FA Signing
Morrow
Romero
Alvarez
Happ
Jays have to get at least two starters no matter what. They need depth, they need to be able to call upon a reliable starter like Alvarez to come up when injuries happen (and they will).

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11-11-2012, 01:47 PM
  #156
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If we are prepared to spend $15 million a year on a pitcher like Sanchez while still needing a #2-3 type of player (who will also command good money) why not just go and spend $25 per over 6 years for Grienke then trade for a cheaper #4-5 option. Getting Greinke will eliminate the need to get another top of the rotation starter since Grienke-Morrow would be an effective 1-2 and acquiring the other #4-5 guy would be far less impact on our budget and prospects freeing up the assets to bring in another impact bat.

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11-11-2012, 02:14 PM
  #157
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what does marcum want - 12 million a yr ?
8 maybe is what he"ll get

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11-11-2012, 02:40 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
If we are prepared to spend $15 million a year on a pitcher like Sanchez while still needing a #2-3 type of player (who will also command good money) why not just go and spend $25 per over 6 years for Grienke then trade for a cheaper #4-5 option. Getting Greinke will eliminate the need to get another top of the rotation starter since Grienke-Morrow would be an effective 1-2 and acquiring the other #4-5 guy would be far less impact on our budget and prospects freeing up the assets to bring in another impact bat.
I'd have no problem with that but I have a feeling AA isn't looking at like that.

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11-11-2012, 02:45 PM
  #159
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If we can get Niese for Arencibia +prospect we could then sign Shaun Marcum/ Edwin Jackson to really fill out our rotation

Morrow
Romero
Marcum
Niese
Happ/ Alvarez

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Old
11-11-2012, 02:46 PM
  #160
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Well, that's simply not true. We appear to have the budget to compete for guys like Sanchez and Jackson, according to both Anthopolous and Beeston. And plenty of FAs have signed here over the years, they'll follow the dollars.
I will believe that when I see it. I don't want the Jays to be a teem that picks through the scrap heap but I haven't seen evidence of much else. They said before they were willing to spend and didnt.
Either because they didn't think the prices were right or because guys didn't want to come here.

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11-11-2012, 02:47 PM
  #161
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I'd have no problem with that but I have a feeling AA isn't looking at like that.
I would rather spend bigger on Grienke and pair him with morrow and you got 1-2 punch. Hoping Romero bounces back and you have a solid top of the rotation with Happ in 5 you only need a 4 who is an inning eater/veteran

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11-11-2012, 02:49 PM
  #162
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Because we know we cant get the best FAs here. Either cause we can attract them or because we cant afford them.
It sucks but the Jays tend to have to try to get players off the scrap heap.
Well then you're saying that the Jays won't ever be good enough to contend. I don't want to go and watch these washed up players play in some meaningless games. Who wants to do that?

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11-11-2012, 03:01 PM
  #163
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Well then you're saying that the Jays won't ever be good enough to contend. I don't want to go and watch these washed up players play in some meaningless games. Who wants to do that?
I don't want that. But what I want is irreverent. Every off season we all talk about going after great players and it never happens. Maybe this is the year they do something different but I'm not gonna get my hopes up either.

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11-11-2012, 03:13 PM
  #164
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Yes, this is what I meant.

I find it difficult most of the time to just have some basic baseball discussions here. For instance, if I say I like a certain player and hope the Jays acquire him, I have three different people telling me why he's terrible while a bunch of advanced stats are thrown at me. Some people don't care to analyze things to the extent that most people here do, which is fine, to each their own. I've seen other people comment about the condecending attitude from some of the regulars on here, and I think a lot of people stay away from posting because of this fact. I'm sure that's the way they want it, and don't really care what people like me think, which again is fine. I just hope the attitude will change in here one day, because I do like having a place to discuss baseball once in a while.
I don't care what anyone says, this is bang on, great point.

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11-11-2012, 03:26 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
I don't want that. But what I want is irreverent. Every off season we all talk about going after great players and it never happens. Maybe this is the year they do something different but I'm not gonna get my hopes up either.
Here is what you're missing, and I've bolded it for emphasis. For the past three years, FANS and the MEDIA have talked about "getting great players". Beeston and Anthopolous have not, because they understood that the team needed to have its core in place before it made sense to do so. So of our expectations were unrealistic, that's our fault, not the team's.

This off-season, however, it's the team's comments that are driving speculation. They've said they like their core now. They've said they have more money to spend. So this is not at all like the first three seasons under Anthopolous, and there's simply no reason to assume they won't spend as they've indicated.

Don't forget, the last time a GM asked Rogers to spend in free agency, they did without any apparent hesitation - indeed Ricciardi was fast and aggressive on the FA market. So the precedent is there.

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Old
11-11-2012, 03:30 PM
  #166
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I only mentioned wells because I love the guy. I met him once and he was so damn nice. But there is better options out there. I'd take a look at Cabrera.

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11-11-2012, 04:12 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
Here is what you're missing, and I've bolded it for emphasis. For the past three years, FANS and the MEDIA have talked about "getting great players". Beeston and Anthopolous have not, because they understood that the team needed to have its core in place before it made sense to do so. So of our expectations were unrealistic, that's our fault, not the team's.

This off-season, however, it's the team's comments that are driving speculation. They've said they like their core now. They've said they have more money to spend. So this is not at all like the first three seasons under Anthopolous, and there's simply no reason to assume they won't spend as they've indicated.

Don't forget, the last time a GM asked Rogers to spend in free agency, they did without any apparent hesitation - indeed Ricciardi was fast and aggressive on the FA market. So the precedent is there.
What is the difference between the core last winter vs this one? Pretty much the same except for guys AA overrated like Thame,Snider,Lind,Johnson

There was many players to improve the core last year on the FA market but I really think the ownership either was told by AA that we can win with young and cheap or Rogers said no to upgrades.

So I wonder if AA didn't evaluate this talent properly or wanted to tow company line and not spend

There were many players on the open market or guys to be had in deals that could have improved the team last year and nothing was done.

I truly think ownership has heard many calls by media and fans for a winning team and they now realize they need to spend to win. I am not saying they are listening and doing what fans and media are telling them to do but there has to be some idea in ownership that they need to spend to win.

What changed in 1 year about your core they had the same holes last year to fill this year.

AA is a great spinner and makes you want to believe what he says good at PR and spinning hope but MLB is a result driven business win or your out

Time will tell this winter

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Old
11-11-2012, 04:35 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by ryno23 View Post
What is the difference between the core last winter vs this one? Pretty much the same except for guys AA overrated like Thame,Snider,Lind,Johnson

There was many players to improve the core last year on the FA market but I really think the ownership either was told by AA that we can win with young and cheap or Rogers said no to upgrades.

So I wonder if AA didn't evaluate this talent properly or wanted to tow company line and not spend

There were many players on the open market or guys to be had in deals that could have improved the team last year and nothing was done.

I truly think ownership has heard many calls by media and fans for a winning team and they now realize they need to spend to win. I am not saying they are listening and doing what fans and media are telling them to do but there has to be some idea in ownership that they need to spend to win.

What changed in 1 year about your core they had the same holes last year to fill this year.

AA is a great spinner and makes you want to believe what he says good at PR and spinning hope but MLB is a result driven business win or your out

Time will tell this winter
-Encarnacion has established himself as an elite hitter at 1B/DH.
-Johnson is not the answer
-Lawrie is not the second coming as many expected
-Rasmus showed he can hit this year until Injuries killed his season
-Morrow is a legit top of the rotation arm
-Depth is needed

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11-11-2012, 04:43 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
-Encarnacion has established himself as an elite hitter at 1B/DH.
-Johnson is not the answer
-Lawrie is not the second coming as many expected
-Rasmus showed he can hit this year until Injuries killed his season
-Morrow is a legit top of the rotation arm
-Depth is needed
I would prefer to err on the side of caution with your first point. EE had a great year. I don't know if he'll carry that over into next year...the guy always had potential but had some holes in his swing. Time will tell if he is another guy like Bautista or more of an Adam Lind type (by that I mean have one great year and then regress)

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11-11-2012, 04:45 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Jones View Post
Here is what you're missing, and I've bolded it for emphasis. For the past three years, FANS and the MEDIA have talked about "getting great players". Beeston and Anthopolous have not, because they understood that the team needed to have its core in place before it made sense to do so. So of our expectations were unrealistic, that's our fault, not the team's.

This off-season, however, it's the team's comments that are driving speculation. They've said they like their core now. They've said they have more money to spend. So this is not at all like the first three seasons under Anthopolous, and there's simply no reason to assume they won't spend as they've indicated.

Don't forget, the last time a GM asked Rogers to spend in free agency, they did without any apparent hesitation - indeed Ricciardi was fast and aggressive on the FA market. So the precedent is there.
What Beeston did say, I believe before the 2011 or 2012 season, is that he expected the team to make the playoffs a couple of times within the next 5 seasons. For that to happen, we either have to see tremendous growth in our young talent, a significant investment into free agents, or a combination of both, which likely will be the case.

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Old
11-11-2012, 04:55 PM
  #171
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I think Edwin is for real.

He was always considered a 'pull-hitter', that could hit an inside pitch but struggled on the outer half. Now, he made an adjustment and instead of pulling outside pitches, he would drive it up to center field.

Quote:
"The ball on the outside corner I had been pulling a lot. I now try to stay more to the middle and get my swing shorter with my two hands."
Look at the difference on his swing (short and compact along with both hands on the bat longer):



His plate discipline went up as well, he only swings 21% of the time on pitches outside the strike zone.

He had a 29.9 pitch value against fastballs last season, making him the fourth best fastball hitter in the game.

Pretty crazy to think the Jays are only paying 23 million a year till 2015 on middle of the order production that Edwin and Jose provide.

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Old
11-11-2012, 05:16 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
I think Edwin is for real.

He was always considered a 'pull-hitter', that could hit an inside pitch but struggled on the outer half. Now, he made an adjustment and instead of pulling outside pitches, he would drive it up to center field.



Look at the difference on his swing (short and compact along with both hands on the bat longer):



His plate discipline went up as well, he only swings 21% of the time on pitches outside the strike zone.

He had a 29.9 pitch value against fastballs last season, making him the fourth best fastball hitter in the game.

Pretty crazy to think the Jays are only paying 23 million a year till 2015 on middle of the order production that Edwin and Jose provide.
He is still a pull hitter but yeah, he has made that adjustment where pitches on the outer half are being driven to the CF (12 HR to CF) and it almost seemed at times he was just waiting for pitches on the outer half to drive. Great thing was, he showed elite plate discipline while doing it... he hasn't just running into crappy fastballs, he stayed within the strike zone and was just driving, totally crushing pitches he was swinging at.

He had a .266 BABIP to go along with his fantastic season and while I'm not saying he could maintain the year he had but it's almost as if he was a little bit unlucky because he had so many pitches that were crushed and found gloves but he hit so many of them hard that he screwed whatever bad luck he had. Who knows though, nobody ever thought Jose would get better after his 2010 season despite a really low BABIP but then he was even better in 2011 and got his BABIP up. One thing to note, is that flyballs hitters usually have low BABIP because flyballs are most likely of the batted balls to be outs but in Edwin's case, his BABIP was lower than his career norms (.266 vs .280 career).

Who knows if he improves or not but it wouldn't surprise me if he did assuming he can keep that plate discipline at the elite level we saw in 2012.

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Old
11-11-2012, 05:34 PM
  #173
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rasmus escobar arencebia lind are the R.E.A.L. guys to deal

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11-11-2012, 05:46 PM
  #174
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rasmus escobar arencebia lind are the R.E.A.L. guys to deal
Totally agree. Should be able to get a good pitcher etc

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11-11-2012, 05:53 PM
  #175
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Totally agree. Should be able to get a good pitcher etc
Would you trade a good pitcher for Lind, Arencibia, Esobar or Rasmus?

As great as it sounds in real life you can rarely trade your problems for your solutions.

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