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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:03 AM
  #301
MajorityRules
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Funny...
I was a HUGE fan of baseball until it got "Fehrified".


If the owners got what they wanted, I would almost for sure still follow the league (some form of parity so that the Yankee's can't buy their way into the playoffs each and every season).
But due to player greed, I had to watch my team not have a chance in hell season after season until I just lost interest.

I heard there was some big trade last week.
But then I looked up the players involved and I haven't even heard of any of them. I'm that out of touch with the sport.
I was just checking out mlb attendance.
To no surprise whatsoever, I see that attendance is huge in the rich cities, and pathetic in the smaller markets.

A system that is good for the players... and only the players.

Please owners... please... don't let Fehr do it to the nhl.
Same here. I have no interest in watching a few teams compete while the rest go through the motions.

Prior to the last lockout the Leafs could outspend everone and it still didn't help.

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11-23-2012, 09:09 AM
  #302
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=4101...medium=twitter

"For me, I think those guys selling us out [Harmlik and Neuvirth], being selfish like that and making those comments..." Brouwer continued. "Me being on their team, how am I going to trust them as a teammate from now on? Because you know they're not going to support players in the big scheme of things when you go and you play on the team with them; it's going to be tough to want to back those guys from now on."

"It's frustrating as players having other players come out and say this but we still as a core are very strong," Brouwer said. "We still believe the same things. We stand by the proposal that we made (Wednesday) and nothing's going to change."

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11-23-2012, 09:18 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by legendinblue View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=4101...medium=twitter

"For me, I think those guys selling us out [Harmlik and Neuvirth], being selfish like that and making those comments..." Brouwer continued. "Me being on their team, how am I going to trust them as a teammate from now on? Because you know they're not going to support players in the big scheme of things when you go and you play on the team with them; it's going to be tough to want to back those guys from now on."

"It's frustrating as players having other players come out and say this but we still as a core are very strong," Brouwer said. "We still believe the same things. We stand by the proposal that we made (Wednesday) and nothing's going to change."
Oh shut up Brouwer! Ever heard of freedom of expression?

Him having a different stance on the CBA negotiations has nothing to do with how he'll perform on the ice, and how you'll perform with him on the ice. Treating him differently just because he spoke his mind just makes you ignorant.

I'm pretty shocked Brouwer said something this stupid.

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11-23-2012, 09:26 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
Oh shut up Brouwer! Ever heard of freedom of expression?

Him having a different stance on the CBA negotiations has nothing to do with how he'll perform on the ice, and how you'll perform with him on the ice. Treating him differently just because he spoke his mind just makes you ignorant.

I'm pretty shocked Brouwer said something this stupid.
I think Brouwer is pushing it. Makes it sound like Hammer slept with his wife or something.

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11-23-2012, 09:37 AM
  #305
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TSN's Bob McKenzie - Three CBA-related things we're likely to be dealing with or talking about in the not-too-distant future:

Quote:
3. Decertification.

It's already the word-du-jour, and for good reason.

On pretty much every NHLPA conference call with the players in past weeks, there's been some discussion on the potential of decertification as an NHLPA strategic tool. But on each of those calls, the emphasis always turned towards negotiating a settlement with the NHL and decertification was shelved.

Until last night's conference call, that is. For the first time, when decertification was brought up, there was no stated objection to it. A number of NHL players who might have otherwise have raised an objection or concern to it didn't because they said the climate on the call, after the NHL rejected what the players thought was a significant proposal, was too hot to talk of moderation.

After last night's player call, it is fair to say that NHLPA executive director Don Fehr has the mandate or green light to go down the decertification road. That doesn't necessarily mean decertification is imminent or that the actual process is underway, but multiple sources say it is unquestionably on the next page of the NHLPA playbook and that is a viable option that may soon become reality.

Continued : http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410081
Looks like Bettman and the Owners in their pursuit of bully tactics negotiating, is pushing the union closer to nuclear retaliation with each passing demand and day. It seems to be gaining momentum and Fehr who has won this similar battle in baseball previously is something the the NHLPA know all to well about.

If it does all blow up in the Owners face they have no one to blame but themselves.

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11-23-2012, 09:48 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
Same here. I have no interest in watching a few teams compete while the rest go through the motions.

Prior to the last lockout the Leafs could outspend everone and it still didn't help.
But they didn't outspend then. I don't know why people think they did. DET, PHI, COL, NYR, DAL continually spent more. They were always around 5th for league spending. People around here assume they would be like the Yankees if there was no cap. Not a chance.

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Oh shut up Brouwer! Ever heard of freedom of expression?

LOL!! How ironic a statement!

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11-23-2012, 09:53 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
TSN's Bob McKenzie - Three CBA-related things we're likely to be dealing with or talking about in the not-too-distant future:



Looks like Bettman and the Owners in their pursuit of bully tactics negotiating, is pushing the union closer to nuclear retaliation with each passing demand and day. It seems to be gaining momentum and Fehr who has won this similar battle in baseball previously is something the the NHLPA know all to well about.

If it does all blow up in the Owners face they have no one to blame but themselves.
Both sides share the blame equally, make no mistake about it. Truthfully though, I don't think the owners are all that scared of decertification.

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11-23-2012, 10:16 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
But they didn't outspend then. I don't know why people think they did. DET, PHI, COL, NYR, DAL continually spent more. They were always around 5th for league spending. People around here assume they would be like the Yankees if there was no cap. Not a chance.




LOL!! How ironic a statement!
He is pushing it. That's his past team mate we're talking about. You don't turn your back on someone who just happens to share a different view.

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11-23-2012, 10:21 AM
  #309
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Oh shut up Brouwer! Ever heard of freedom of expression?
Perfect....just perfect.

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11-23-2012, 10:40 AM
  #310
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Both sides share the blame equally, make no mistake about it. Truthfully though, I don't think the owners are all that scared of decertification.
Owners should get themselves a good lawyer and get him to brush up on his Antitrust legislation knowledge.

The US Counts could hand out millions upon millions in fines and lost wages damages against the Owners facing 100's of cases after a decertification by the Union. The collective bargaining agreement (CBA) is the only thing standing between them at present protecting them from such lawsuits, and decertification of the union blows that up and their hard salary cap and everything else governed by that document.

If nothing else the mere threat of decertification alone as a weapon by the NHLPA in this bargain process, should get the Owners to actually negotiate for once in a give and take process, and force Bettman to drop his take it or leave it nonsensical antics and outrageous one sided demands for fear of retribution. Fehr's legacy in baseball has already provided a winning track record against MLB Owners, taking them to task and schooling them into getting a CBA that the players he represented liked and later accepted. If Bettman and the NHL Owners want to try and take on this, despite owners in MLB and NFL and NBA all losing their battles previously, setting losing precedence in a decertification processes of unions in major sports with courts siding with the players side then they should go right ahead.

Every time the NHLPA offers a proposal as requested by NHL, Bettman dismisses it immediately and are unwilling to engage in an actual negotiation. Unwillingness to negotiate is only pushing the NHLPA closer to having no other option but getting the legal system involved to overrule the dictatorship attempt of the NHL. A ruling by the courts similarly like has occurred in other sports got their sports Owners lockouts ended quickly there after, as Owners fear financial retribution and were forced to end the lockout and begin paying the players again what they're owed in full.


Last edited by Mess: 11-23-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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11-23-2012, 11:15 AM
  #311
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James Mirtle @mirtle
On decertification. RT @andystrickland: Bill Daly went on to tell me "The law is not in their favor"

James Mirtle @mirtle
Legal experts I spoke with last few days say law not certain on decertification. NHL players would have multiple avenues to pursue here.

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11-23-2012, 01:00 PM
  #312
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http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l..._bettman_fehr/

Quote:
As one of the NBA’s most successful player agents, Bill Duffy has his handful representing a full roster of clients, including the Los Angeles Lakers Steve Nash.

But that doesn’t mean he hasn’t been paying attention to the NHL lockout, now in its 10th week. He has, and he has a strong opinion about what the players should do next.

“They should decertify, absolutely,” said Duffy while taking a break from his Thanksgiving dinner. “They should have done it three months ago.”
Quote:
In an email to the Globe and Mail, Buffalo Sabres goalie Ryan Miller became the first NHL player to publicly endorse the concept.

“After watching the other sport leagues go through labour disputes last year, it is apparent that until decertification is filed, there will not be any real movement or negotiation,” Miller wrote in an email published by the Globe’s James Mirtle. “Many things in our negotiation are very consistent with the NFL and NBA negotiations, and both of those leagues filed papers necessary to decertify.”
Quote:
One prominent player agent, Allan Walsh of Octogon Hockey, said support for the concept is gathering steam, a view echoed by some other agents contacted by Sportsnet.

“The NHLPA has become nothing more than a vehicle [for the owners] to take revenue share and contract rights away from players,” said Walsh.

Said another agent, who asked not to be named: “Decertification has been explored for some time and this trigger may be pulled, especially if massive concessionary bargaining continues.”
Quote:
“It’s the only recourse the players have; otherwise the owners have an unfair advantage,” said Duffy, the NBA agent. “The players should do it.”

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11-23-2012, 01:32 PM
  #313
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First 2 weeks of December and the all star weekend cancelled.

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11-23-2012, 01:40 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Owners should get themselves a good lawyer and get him to brush up on his Antitrust legislation knowledge.

The US Counts could hand out millions upon millions in fines and lost wages damages against the Owners facing 100's of cases after a decertification by the Union. The collective bargaining agreement (CBA) is the only thing standing between them at present protecting them from such lawsuits, and decertification of the union blows that up and their hard salary cap and everything else governed by that document.

If nothing else the mere threat of decertification alone as a weapon by the NHLPA in this bargain process, should get the Owners to actually negotiate for once in a give and take process, and force Bettman to drop his take it or leave it nonsensical antics and outrageous one sided demands for fear of retribution. Fehr's legacy in baseball has already provided a winning track record against MLB Owners, taking them to task and schooling them into getting a CBA that the players he represented liked and later accepted. If Bettman and the NHL Owners want to try and take on this, despite owners in MLB and NFL and NBA all losing their battles previously, setting losing precedence in a decertification processes of unions in major sports with courts siding with the players side then they should go right ahead.

Every time the NHLPA offers a proposal as requested by NHL, Bettman dismisses it immediately and are unwilling to engage in an actual negotiation. Unwillingness to negotiate is only pushing the NHLPA closer to having no other option but getting the legal system involved to overrule the dictatorship attempt of the NHL. A ruling by the courts similarly like has occurred in other sports got their sports Owners lockouts ended quickly there after, as Owners fear financial retribution and were forced to end the lockout and begin paying the players again what they're owed in full.
You aren't viewing this objectively. You are too far on the Player's side. Both sides have been poor at negotiating throughout this whole process. Neither side has given the other's any serious consideration. Everyone thought the owner's make whole was finally what the players were looking for, only to find that the players rejected it without so much as a counter until the players were begged to put together a response weeks later.

Swing that pendulum the other way Mess.

The sooner everyone realizes that this problem is shared by both sides, the better.

I personally believe Decertification is a hard road for the players too. If the union is dissovled, it should stay defunct. You shouldn't be able to just dissolve a union to gain leverage with your employer, only to re-form later so that you can simply get your way on both ends of the spectrum.

If they want a true free market, they will have to pay a very hefty price.

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11-23-2012, 05:22 PM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
TSN's Bob McKenzie - Three CBA-related things we're likely to be dealing with or talking about in the not-too-distant future:



Looks like Bettman and the Owners in their pursuit of bully tactics negotiating, is pushing the union closer to nuclear retaliation with each passing demand and day. It seems to be gaining momentum and Fehr who has won this similar battle in baseball previously is something the the NHLPA know all to well about.

If it does all blow up in the Owners face they have no one to blame but themselves.
Let's pull the trigger and make it happen.

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11-23-2012, 06:54 PM
  #316
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This whole thing and I mean the entire lockout is a bunch of utter BS! I don't understand why they cannot use binding arbitration to settle this, in most contract disputes (here in Canada) at least both sides are given a certain amount of time to settle it on their own but once the time is up and no deal is reached then a negotiater is brought in and whatever decision he/she renders is legally binding and both sides must return to work. I don't get why this same approach cannot be used in the NHL and other sport leagues.

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11-23-2012, 07:05 PM
  #317
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This whole thing and I mean the entire lockout is a bunch of utter BS! I don't understand why they cannot use binding arbitration to settle this, in most contract disputes (here in Canada) at least both sides are given a certain amount of time to settle it on their own but once the time is up and no deal is reached then a negotiater is brought in and whatever decision he/she renders is legally binding and both sides must return to work. I don't get why this same approach cannot be used in the NHL and other sport leagues.
Hockey is not an essential service.

An arbitrator will never happen, however both sides have expressed interest in a mediator.

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11-23-2012, 07:56 PM
  #318
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Oh shut up Brouwer! Ever heard of freedom of expression?

Him having a different stance on the CBA negotiations has nothing to do with how he'll perform on the ice, and how you'll perform with him on the ice. Treating him differently just because he spoke his mind just makes you ignorant.

I'm pretty shocked Brouwer said something this stupid.
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Originally Posted by legendinblue View Post
I think Brouwer is pushing it. Makes it sound like Hammer slept with his wife or something.
YOu guys ever been in a union?


Now granted mine is a cluster**** right now but you just don't do that.

Dissention is to be kept in house.

Brouwer is right. They shold have kept their negative comments to themselves or addressed it internally.

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11-23-2012, 07:59 PM
  #319
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LOL!! How ironic a statement!
Apparently freedom of expression is only good if it agrees with your own POV.

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11-23-2012, 09:54 PM
  #320
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Brouwer is right. They shold have kept their negative comments to themselves or addressed it internally.
So Hammer and others like him should continue to get ignored by Fehr and NHLPA hardliners?

If the union refuses to let a large # of its members have a voice then those members have all the rights to take there grievance thru only other means available

Bravo to Hammer and others who refuse to follow Fehr and his mindless zombies off cliff

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11-23-2012, 10:00 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
YOu guys ever been in a union?


Now granted mine is a cluster**** right now but you just don't do that.

Dissention is to be kept in house.

Brouwer is right. They shold have kept their negative comments to themselves or addressed it internally.
But Cole said that Hamrlik did address it with other players and Cole said that the other players shut him down.

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11-23-2012, 10:22 PM
  #322
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So Hammer and others like him should continue to get ignored by Fehr and NHLPA hardliners?

If the union refuses to let a large # of its members have a voice then those members have all the rights to take there grievance thru only other means available

Bravo to Hammer and others who refuse to follow Fehr and his mindless zombies off cliff
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
But Cole said that Hamrlik did address it with other players and Cole said that the other players shut him down.
If he brought it up in the union and he was shut down then he needs to shut the **** up and sit down.

He is free to leave the union if he wants. To speak out against it publicly should get him kicked out.

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11-23-2012, 10:36 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
So Hammer and others like him should continue to get ignored by Fehr and NHLPA hardliners?

If the union refuses to let a large # of its members have a voice then those members have all the rights to take there grievance thru only other means available

Bravo to Hammer and others who refuse to follow Fehr and his mindless zombies off cliff
I presume you have some facts to back up your ridiculous assertions?

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11-24-2012, 07:49 AM
  #324
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The sport has become a joke...

And every day fans care less and less.But the real joke is on those who pay to watch these spoilt babies if and when they return.When you get laid off,these millionaires wont even buy you a cheeseburger.Now go give $400 to Crosby to wipe his butt with....

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11-24-2012, 08:32 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
YOu guys ever been in a union?


Now granted mine is a cluster**** right now but you just don't do that.

Dissention is to be kept in house.

Brouwer is right. They shold have kept their negative comments to themselves or addressed it internally.
No, I haven't and I understand where you're coming from.

Hamrlik suggests though, there hasn't been a vote whether to accept the current CBA offer or not. That I don't understand.

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