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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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Old
11-24-2012, 09:04 AM
  #326
Mess
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Originally Posted by legendinblue View Post
No, I haven't and I understand where you're coming from.

Hamrlik suggests though, there hasn't been a vote whether to accept the current CBA offer or not. That I don't understand.
There is no vote, because the NHLPA membership hasn't called for one, because Hamrlik is simply a vocal minority expressing his own feelings and would take any deal offered simply to get paid.

Similarly Bettman isn't asking MLSE if they would take the latest NHLPA offer, (which he rejected outright) if there were a vote today, despite Toronto's likely desire to wish to be playing at present, and were fine playing even under the previous CBA as they make lots of profit still regardless. Collective (as the word suggests) bargaining is about getting the best deal for the group or majority if you like.

Fehr doesn't muzzle his members like Bettman does and they're free to speak their minds openly.. To this point we have only heard a few malcontent players speaking out against Fehr, while the majority of bitterness comments are directed at Bettman, like Ian White calling him an idiot for example..

So there is no general sense/feeling that a deal would be accepted by over 350 players (majority) voting and accepting what is on the table today. Both sides feel they're still far apart at present.

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11-24-2012, 10:46 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
There is no vote, because the NHLPA membership hasn't called for one, because Hamrlik is simply a vocal minority expressing his own feelings and would take any deal offered simply to get paid.

Similarly Bettman isn't asking MLSE if they would take the latest NHLPA offer, (which he rejected outright) if there were a vote today, despite Toronto's likely desire to wish to be playing at present, and were fine playing even under the previous CBA as they make lots of profit still regardless. Collective (as the word suggests) bargaining is about getting the best deal for the group or majority if you like.

Fehr doesn't muzzle his members like Bettman does and they're free to speak their minds openly.. To this point we have only heard a few malcontent players speaking out against Fehr, while the majority of bitterness comments are directed at Bettman, like Ian White calling him an idiot for example..

So there is no general sense/feeling that a deal would be accepted by over 350 players (majority) voting and accepting what is on the table today. Both sides feel they're still far apart at present.
There's a number of players on the last year of a bloated contract that would vote yes. Many know that next year the money will be much lower. Connolly, at almost 5 million, will be lucky to get 1-2 next year. Lombardi is another. I suspect Komisarik would like to get going even though he has 2 years left. He simply won't get similar money, and burning one of the remaining two years isn't a good idea financially for Komi.

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11-26-2012, 05:53 AM
  #328
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But they didn't outspend then. I don't know why people think they did. DET, PHI, COL, NYR, DAL continually spent more. They were always around 5th for league spending. People around here assume they would be like the Yankees if there was no cap. Not a chance.
You're right, except I never said they did. I said they could.

You should really relax and read before responding.

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11-26-2012, 03:36 PM
  #329
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Any further meetings scheduled?

Apparently a Mediator is stepping in to help out.


Last edited by ACC1224: 11-26-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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11-26-2012, 03:42 PM
  #330
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In response to ACC1224, I just read on the Toronto Star website that the parties have agreed to the assistance of the U.S. federal mediation service which usually implies a willingness to try to come to an agreement.

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11-26-2012, 03:44 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by stormtracker View Post
In response to ACC1224, I just read on the Toronto Star website that the parties have agreed to the assistance of the U.S. federal mediation service which usually implies a willingness to try to come to an agreement.
Thanks, looks like I stumbled on that info the same time as your post.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1298085

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11-26-2012, 03:46 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by stormtracker View Post
In response to ACC1224, I just read on the Toronto Star website that the parties have agreed to the assistance of the U.S. federal mediation service which usually implies a willingness to try to come to an agreement.
One of the reporters on Twitter said they used a mediator during the 04/05 lockout. It still lasted a whole season.

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11-26-2012, 04:22 PM
  #333
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ah yes
mediator time

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11-26-2012, 04:52 PM
  #334
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Jerkini, you may well be right that this will have similar results but it may be a way for the parties to try to save face and come to a deal. Either outcome is possible.

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11-26-2012, 05:56 PM
  #335
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http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...ings-this-week

My apologies if this article has been posted already. I'm in and out right now.

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11-26-2012, 06:02 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
You're right, except I never said they did. I said they could.

You should really relax and read before responding.
I would say this sentence implies that you assumed they did. Especially the bolded.

Quote:
Prior to the last lockout the Leafs could outspend everone and it still didn't help
Sorry I didn't read further into what you were trying to say. But it's a common misconception around here. People think the Leafs were throwing money around and dominating the FA market. Not the case, really.

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11-26-2012, 06:04 PM
  #337
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I think the mediator will help more this time. They are a lot closer in negotiations then they were last time.

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11-26-2012, 09:32 PM
  #338
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It looks like Reimer is chomping at the bit to get this thing settled and start the season.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/26...-at-redemption

Quote:
WINNIPEG - James Reimer is eager to put the frustration and disappointment of last season behind him.

The Morweena, Man., product endured some tough times in the crease of the Toronto Maple Leafs, but feels like he was able to take some positives from it, thanks to a long summer of reflection after his team missed out on the Stanley Cup playoffs.

“You just get tougher,” Reimer said in a recent interview before returning to Toronto. “I don’t know if there’s one thing I can pick out to improve on, but overall it’s maybe your perseverance and your endurance. When you’re not playing as well as you’d like to play, in a market that demands it, it’s tough on you, it’s tough on your character and it challenges you.

“I think I grew as a person and that will only help me going forward.”

Now, if only the NHL and NHLPA could find a way to end the lockout.

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11-26-2012, 10:32 PM
  #339
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I think the mediator will help more this time. They are a lot closer in negotiations then they were last time.
Your stating that as a fact do you have any proof to back it up? If not then you really need to put a "IMO" or "I think" at the beginning or end of "They are a lot closer in negotations then they were last time".

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11-26-2012, 10:34 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by stormtracker View Post
Jerkini, you may well be right that this will have similar results but it may be a way for the parties to try to save face and come to a deal. Either outcome is possible.
I think its beginning to sink in for both sides how bad their greedy tug of war is getting, they were saying on hockeycentral that for every game that is not played there is a $20M loss in revenue, now assuming 1/2 the games have already been cancelled, that's a $820M loss in revenue.

I think Money is what has teared these two sides apart, and money is what will bring them back together IMO.

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11-26-2012, 10:36 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Your stating that as a fact do you have any proof to back it up? If not then you really need to put a "IMO" or "I think" at the beginning or end of "They are a lot closer in negotations then they were last time".
He started it off with "i think"

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Old
11-27-2012, 03:49 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Your stating that as a fact do you have any proof to back it up? If not then you really need to put a "IMO" or "I think" at the beginning or end of "They are a lot closer in negotations then they were last time".
Well, the last lockout had a 24% rollback in it. The players wouldn't accept a cap at all until it was too late. In financial terms, the PA and league are apart on the 'make whole' issue, apparently, a little less then 2M per team. And that number will, at some point depending on the agreement, meet at 50/50.

I don't have the hard facts, but that, IMO, sounds a lot closer. Is that good enough for you?

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11-27-2012, 08:41 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Your stating that as a fact do you have any proof to back it up? If not then you really need to put a "IMO" or "I think" at the beginning or end of "They are a lot closer in negotations then they were last time".
Actually, I've heard this stated many times on the radio.

The last time they had a mediator they didn't have a cap system in place.

This time the issue is the distribution of the fans money within an existing system.

Therefore they are much closer this time as they don't have a system difference.

In saying that, I'm not sure it will matter. If I were betting I'd say the owners just want the mediator to deliver their non-negotiation stance to the player to say we tried. IMO it is just PR.

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11-27-2012, 08:53 AM
  #344
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Owners obligated to lose money?

So because they risk millions and make money in other ventures,they are obligated to lose money in hockey which is just a pet project for them? I wonder what percentage of teams really make any money after they pay: leases,players,scouts,coaches,travel,hotels etc? I mean if this was a real business that wasn't funded by money made elsewhere probably 10 teams would be gone overnight and to be honest the league would be better, not worse, for it.They should call it the overpaid NHC(National Hockey Charity)'.

OH these poor ,poor players,nevermind the fans who actually work for a living and get no guarantees.These guys make more in one year than most CDNs make in their lifetime.Hockey isn't better than it used to be,so why are we paying more?Greed,plain and simple.It is Bettman's fault for getting jobs for so many run of the mill players.

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11-27-2012, 09:01 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
So because they risk millions and make money in other ventures,they are obligated to lose money in hockey which is just a pet project for them? I wonder what percentage of teams really make any money after they pay: leases,players,scouts,coaches,travel,hotels etc? I mean if this was a real business that wasn't funded by money made elsewhere probably 10 teams would be gone overnight and to be honest the league would be better, not worse, for it.They should call it the overpaid NHC(National Hockey Charity)'.

OH these poor ,poor players,nevermind the fans who actually work for a living and get no guarantees.These guys make more in one year than most CDNs make in their lifetime.Hockey isn't better than it used to be,so why are we paying more?Greed,plain and simple.It is Bettman's fault for getting jobs for so many run of the mill players.
Honestly, I think decertification makes sense for both parties.

Owners can decide how much they can pay without a CBA forcing them to pay a certain level.

With a CBA you should really consider the NHL one organization and add up all the revenues and all the expenses and then evaluate the entity. Corporately, companies can have losing outlets they keep operating at a loss if they feel overall it helps maintain their presence and buying power. They will obviously, shut down losing arms if it becomes obvious it will never be a contributor to the bottom line and adds no goodwill to the entity.

Decertification enables each owner to determine their own market.

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11-27-2012, 09:16 AM
  #346
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Older guys like Whitney, Doan, Hamrlik, Kaberle etc could give a damn about the CBA negotiations...their careers are winding down and they just want to get paid.. whether it's 5M or 4M or 3M because nobody will care about them in 2-3 years anyways.

Younger guys care about the CBA but I don't understand how Sidney Crosby and AO losing nearly 9M if the lockout lasts helps them even if they deal is in their favor.

Honestly...they should just take the deal they get. GM's will find a loophole and players will still get overpaid.

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11-27-2012, 11:05 AM
  #347
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Are they talking today?

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Old
11-27-2012, 11:07 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Older guys like Whitney, Doan, Hamrlik, Kaberle etc could give a damn about the CBA negotiations...their careers are winding down and they just want to get paid.. whether it's 5M or 4M or 3M because nobody will care about them in 2-3 years anyways.

Younger guys care about the CBA but I don't understand how Sidney Crosby and AO losing nearly 9M if the lockout lasts helps them even if they deal is in their favor.

Honestly...they should just take the deal they get. GM's will find a loophole and players will still get overpaid.
So you'd say Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, ... are taking a hit for the future players.

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11-27-2012, 11:08 AM
  #349
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Are they talking today?
Might be, however, from what I gather they won't be doing a lot of talking to us.

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11-27-2012, 12:47 PM
  #350
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Mediation will not help.

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Just a week after league deputy commissioner Bill Daly said that mediation was not the preferred course … Full Story »
Bettman and the Owners don't really want mediation because that would involve common sense and give and take in the negotiations in order to close the gap on their part.. The Owners want to continue to flush the season down the drain with their lockout, in a take it or leave it approach to bargaining where its their way or the highway.

This is just another step in the direction of NHLPA to get the lockout ended by involving a 3rd party. However its just a step closer to desertification of the union process. With the Owners unlikely to budge from their demands, this next failed attempt of mediation will benefit the players once they hit the courts with this battle. A judge will ask during the desertification process "if mediation was done first to see if the stalemate was attempted to be breached to reach a new CBA deal".. After stating "YES" they tried with still no partner willing to negotiate on the Owners side, then desertification is their last resort.

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