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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:26 PM
  #876
calcal798
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
If the Owners want 5 year max contracts then all they have to do is set internal policy and instruct their employees to only hand out offers to players accordingly because the buck stops at them for final approval.. Players only sign contracts they're first offered so this is totally in Team control what contracts are handed out and approved for payment.

No different really than a team playing on a budget and not forced to spend to the hard cap just because the CBA permits them to spend more than they can afford to.

But Since the Owners and their hired GMs lack self control they need to hold the hockey world hostage to protect themselves from themselves, by requiring it to be written in stone in the CBA preventing them from self abuse.

Why the Owners want to lose a season over things they can control internally is a head scratcher, only they can answer.
Did the players not agree on the same money value that the owners offered?

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12-06-2012, 10:27 PM
  #877
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Does hockey have 50 mil in media revenues for every franchise?
Is there parity in the NBA or NFL?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/83...-espn-magazine

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But if the salary cap is as illegitimate as the reserve clause once was, it is perhaps even more entrenched; Roger Goodell and David Stern have been so successful at selling the myth of their parity models that fans around the country repeat it, as if hypnotized. This has less to do with the financial infrastructure of professional sports than something far more visceral, far less scientific. I'm talking about the anti-union, anti-worker sentiment that's growing in this country. According to a recent Gallup poll, the percentage of Americans who approve of labor unions has fallen from a high of 75 percent in the late 1950s to 52 percent now. I'm also talking about the subtle racism that sees many fans align more closely with management than with players -- the resentment that these young players, often minority and undereducated (despite attending the best schools in the nation), earn such ridiculous salaries and appear to be unaccountable; the notion that athletes somehow don't deserve their salaries, even as their billionaire bosses seek public subsidies for their stadiums.

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12-06-2012, 10:27 PM
  #878
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Adaters timeline. Avs fans say hes legit (hes their beat writer)

https://twitter.com/adater

If hes to be believed union is about to experience some rough waters
Wow.


Who is the Colorado player rep?

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:36 PM
  #879
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Did the players not agree on the same money value that the owners offered?
Yup, Fehr in his PC today said both sides seem to agree on the money situation, which would include a 50/50 partnership split of HRR linked, and honouring of $300 mil of $451 mil debt in make whole guaranteed contracts that currently exist today.

So NHL would go from 43% to 50% on HR Revenue, and save a cool +$150 mil discount on make whole existing contracts.. but that wasn't good enough as they also want to control how the NHLPA decide to split up their 50% share.

Why should an Owner care if the PA want to give Crosby a 12 year $100 mil deal and another player a 2 year league minimum deal.. Its not their money effected by how much each player makes and for how long as it doesn't come out of their 50% cut, but rather the PA portion and that is controlled by the salary cap system and team escrow to regulate player salaries.

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12-06-2012, 10:37 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
I could Fehr being let go after all this is fixed. If that is true, Players must be completely pissed
Heres the thing though Fehr is irrelvant, the players are the ones who decide on accepting or declining a deal. Sure Fehr will voice his opinion, but these players are big boys with minds of their own, if they dont want to do something or do want to then they have to decide for themselves.

What it boils down to IMO is the players are extremely greedy.

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12-06-2012, 10:48 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Heres the thing though Fehr is irrelvant, the players are the ones who decide on accepting or declining a deal. Sure Fehr will voice his opinion, but these players are big boys with minds of their own, if they dont want to do something or do want to then they have to decide for themselves.

What it boils down to IMO is the players are extremely greedy.
Sure, but Fehr told them to hold out, and it ****ed them over (or it appears to), not every single player can be at the meetings. So Fehr makes the majority of the decisions and gives feedback.

The only way I can see a deal in the next week or so, is if the players over power, ask for the deal to go to a vote, and the majority of them vote in favor, which I think would be the case.

If not, we are in for trench warfare

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12-06-2012, 10:48 PM
  #882
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No there really aren't, maybe if you include below average 3rd & 4th line players then your argument makes some sense.

And besides, without "superstars" there's no NHL, these guys deserve every penny they earn.
Then the players should be dominating the other leagues around the world if they are the best.

If they can make more in ather leagues go and play in them. But the majority aren't and won't.

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
  #883
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Yup, Fehr in his PC today said both sides seem to agree on the money situation, which would include a 50/50 partnership split of HRR linked, and honouring of $300 mil of $451 mil debt in make whole guaranteed contracts that currently exist today.

So NHL would go from 43% to 50% on HR Revenue, and save a cool +$150 mil discount on make whole existing contracts.. but that wasn't good enough as they also want to control how the NHLPA decide to split up their 50% share.

Why should an Owner care if the PA want to give Crosby a 12 year $100 mil deal and another player a 2 year league minimum deal.. Its not their money effected by how much each player makes and for how long as it doesn't come out of their 50% cut, but rather the PA portion and that is controlled by the salary cap system and team escrow to regulate player salaries.
Didnt the Players originally start at 57% (current amount), then go down to 50% while saying they have to honor their cotracts, and go down to this. Wouldnt that be them moving in the owners direction to try and get a deal done? (I agree that it should be of no concern how the money is spent)

I am confused as to how Bettman was so pissed the players didn't just sign the deal, they met them on the money, just not the other stuff that can probably be worked out to make both sides happy.

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12-06-2012, 10:56 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Yup, Fehr in his PC today said both sides seem to agree on the money situation, which would include a 50/50 partnership split of HRR linked, and honouring of $300 mil of $451 mil debt in make whole guaranteed contracts that currently exist today.

So NHL would go from 43% to 50% on HR Revenue, and save a cool +$150 mil discount on make whole existing contracts.. but that wasn't good enough as they also want to control how the NHLPA decide to split up their 50% share.

Why should an Owner care if the PA want to give Crosby a 12 year $100 mil deal and another player a 2 year league minimum deal.. Its not their money effected by how much each player makes and for how long as it doesn't come out of their 50% cut, but rather the PA portion and that is controlled by the salary cap system and team escrow to regulate player salaries.
Also the owners wanted a 10 year deal to spread out the Make Whole money.

The players wanted 8 with an out clause after 6.

That's how I understand it. But there is so much coming from both sides my head is spinning.



This thing is so stupid.

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:59 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by Woodman19 View Post
And yet Baseball went through how many work stoppages with Fehr at the helm of the MLBPA? How many have their been since he left? Seems pretty obvious who the one keeping this thing going is.
Three, two of which did not result in any cancelled games. Between 1994 (the only strike that did cost game and ultimately, the World Series) and 2010 (Fehr's retirement from the MLBPA), there was not a single work stoppage.

What is Bettman's record again?

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12-06-2012, 11:00 PM
  #886
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wow Kypreos just went right down the ******* in my eyes. He is making it sound like some 4th liners making 575k per year on a 6 year career is NOT ENOUGH!

WTF is that? Is he on *****ing crack?

99% off all North American population would kill to get that money for a few seasons before having to go get a REAL job!

WTF? I have been in the players corner for a while but this is just ridiculous!

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Old
12-06-2012, 11:08 PM
  #887
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Originally Posted by Cor99 View Post
Sure, but Fehr told them to hold out, and it ****ed them over (or it appears to), not every single player can be at the meetings. So Fehr makes the majority of the decisions and gives feedback.

The only way I can see a deal in the next week or so, is if the players over power, ask for the deal to go to a vote, and the majority of them vote in favor, which I think would be the case.

If not, we are in for trench warfare
Have you ever heard of a PHONE TREE? Probably before your time but it was where everyone in a community had a list of 5-10 people to call in case of a natural disaster or something.

1 calls 5. 5 call 25. 25 call 125. 125 call 625.

So even with the outdated form of communication it would be easy to reach the entire NHLPA membership within minutes and tell them what was going on. With mass emails and chatrooms and conference calls, it is way easier today to contact 700 people than it ever has been. Anyone interested would/could have been informed within minutes of the players leaving the room to discuss the NHL's offer.

As I understand it:

The 18 players that were in the meeting obviously thought they had made headway, but after communicating to other players they came back with more demands which basically sent the owners ballistic, and from some accounts almost caused Tannebaum's head to explode.

This is a mess.

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12-06-2012, 11:12 PM
  #888
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411086

Quote:
New York Ranger forward Brad Richards spoke following Thursday's press conferences, stressing the importance of getting back to the table soon.

"It becomes more obvious that it is ultimatum style negotiating," Richards said. "(The owners) weren't even in town to negotiate tonight. Owners and player meetings went well but we needed professionals to close the deal and thought that's what we were attempting to begin to do. To hear we said if we get a pension deal then we agree to everything they want is a bit confusing, but hopefully both sides step back and realize how important it is to get back to the table ASAP."
Sounds like the NHL was tampering.

Wanted the players to sign the contract without Fehr being involved. That's pretty disgusting.

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12-06-2012, 11:13 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Yup, Fehr in his PC today said both sides seem to agree on the money situation, which would include a 50/50 partnership split of HRR linked, and honouring of $300 mil of $451 mil debt in make whole guaranteed contracts that currently exist today.

So NHL would go from 43% to 50% on HR Revenue, and save a cool +$150 mil discount on make whole existing contracts.. but that wasn't good enough as they also want to control how the NHLPA decide to split up their 50% share.

Why should an Owner care if the PA want to give Crosby a 12 year $100 mil deal and another player a 2 year league minimum deal.. Its not their money effected by how much each player makes and for how long as it doesn't come out of their 50% cut, but rather the PA portion and that is controlled by the salary cap system and team escrow to regulate player salaries.
I agree....

What it boils down to is.....the NHL wants the CBA to protect themselves from themselves.....

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Old
12-06-2012, 11:16 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I agree....

What it boils down to is.....the NHL wants the CBA to protect themselves from themselves.....
Burke was able to not sign any of those deals.

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12-06-2012, 11:16 PM
  #891
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I'm waiting for the HFBoards announcement that swearing will be allowed, nay - encouraged on lockout themed threads.

I haven't had an opinion on the topic without profanity yet.

Another day, same s...

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12-06-2012, 11:17 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411086



Sounds like the NHL was tampering.

Wanted the players to sign the contract without Fehr being involved. That's pretty disgusting.
Seems pretty similar to what Tanenbaum said. Once Fehr and Bettman were there the negotiations stopped.

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12-06-2012, 11:19 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Burke was able to not sign any of those deals.
Not every one is as ethical as Burke.

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12-06-2012, 11:21 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Burke was able to not sign any of those deals.
Exactly.....but the NHL Owners are seeking CBA protection from themselves.....you are never forced into signing a long term contract.

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12-06-2012, 11:25 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by calcal798 View Post
Seems pretty similar to what Tanenbaum said. Once Fehr and Bettman were there the negotiations stopped.
I'm not on either side of the players or owners, as I believe both sides are being ridiculous in their requests but after only seeing the last 2 minutes of Bettman's PC is made me sick .. Seems like the owners and players directly were getting things done and when Bettman came in to review it on "behalf of all the other owners" he didn't get everything he wanted he trashed it

I've already expressed my opinion on the greed of the players, but this isn't even greed from the owners IMO .. It's greed straight from Bettman, the effing rat

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12-06-2012, 11:26 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by Ruski View Post
wow Kypreos just went right down the ******* in my eyes. He is making it sound like some 4th liners making 575k per year on a 6 year career is NOT ENOUGH!

WTF is that? Is he on *****ing crack?

99% off all North American population would kill to get that money for a few seasons before having to go get a REAL job!

WTF? I have been in the players corner for a while but this is just ridiculous!
I ran into Lou Franceschetti on a jobsite. He was working construction. Just another run of the mill Joe Lunchpail. Slugging material around like everyone else.

One year later I am watching him in a charity Leafs Alumni game as he skated circles around the local Fire Dept./EMS team.

HE was a scrub NHLer and yet miles ahead of the average Johnny Canuck.


The players do deserve money. I have no problem with 500K as the min for a guy being able to make the NHL for one season.

I do have issues with the minor league system. But that is another thread.

And I do agree with you that Kyper has just looked dumber every day. You have to cut him some slack though. Remember he does have brain damage.

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12-06-2012, 11:28 PM
  #897
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it makes me sick how close they were, and now how far they are on issues that were not that big.

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12-06-2012, 11:32 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by BertCorbeau View Post
I'm not on either side of the players or owners, as I believe both sides are being ridiculous in their requests but after only seeing the last 2 minutes of Bettman's PC is made me sick .. Seems like the owners and players directly were getting things done and when Bettman came in to review it on "behalf of all the other owners" he didn't get everything he wanted he trashed it

I've already expressed my opinion on the greed of the players, but this isn't even greed from the owners IMO .. It's greed straight from Bettman, the effing rat
Its the two of them man. Bettman and Fehr. I have a feeling this should start working towards a deal. They had there little fight, they need to take a time out, and then they'll get back at it.

If they cancel a season for the sake of the differences they currently have it is pure stupidity.

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12-06-2012, 11:40 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by Kessly Snipes View Post
Most of the Canadian population is afforded the opportunity to become a NHL player at a young age, its just very few have the skill and dedication required.
1) Hockey is a hella expensive sport to play.
2) The question was concerning the opportunity to make big money, not the opportunity to play professional hockey. While they obviously intersect, I don't think we should be basing equality of opportunity on equality of opportunity to play hockey.

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12-06-2012, 11:46 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
I ran into Lou Franceschetti on a jobsite. He was working construction. Just another run of the mill Joe Lunchpail. Slugging material around like everyone else.

One year later I am watching him in a charity Leafs Alumni game as he skated circles around the local Fire Dept./EMS team.

HE was a scrub NHLer and yet miles ahead of the average Johnny Canuck.


The players do deserve money. I have no problem with 500K as the min for a guy being able to make the NHL for one season.

I do have issues with the minor league system. But that is another thread.

And I do agree with you that Kyper has just looked dumber every day. You have to cut him some slack though. Remember he does have brain damage.
I grew up with Lou....played with and against him. Played many street hockey games with Hillary vs Lavender he lived on Regent but they always played with the Lavender team.....memories of our youth.....oh yeah Lou was a huge Habs fan!

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