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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:25 AM
  #926
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
I think the argument is that these guys have been doing nothing but play hockey their entire life, and are therefore completely unprepared and unqualified for any work beyond manual labor and maybe sales.

That's not entirely true.

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12-07-2012, 12:25 AM
  #927
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Originally Posted by meng666 View Post
yawn.
Anyways, Bettman's first offer to the players was a beyond comprehension slap in the face. They continually reject the players proposals within minutes. You antagonize the players like that and expect a lost season (they are for the most part millionaires after all and will play somewhere) .This will all be resolved at some point and hopefully the next commissioner doesn't always come with lockout guns a'blazin.
I figured since you posted the flick, you actually watched it first. My mistake.

I don't think alienating the players was his goal with the PC, but to inform the public of the events that occurred during the past few days. After the union's statements taking the NHL fanbase on an emotional rollercoaster ride, I for one appreciate knowing WTF actually happened, even if it's only one side's PoV. Fehr had a chance to state the union's PoV, but he decided to herp-a-derp instead.

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12-07-2012, 12:32 AM
  #928
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This is like a bad dream......same tactics different person at the helm of the players association.....it seems like the NHL goal is to stop the NHLPA from ever getting a stable leadership in place....making it look like it is Fehr fault.....same tactic as before.
And yet Bettman was saying that the constant turn around in leadership made it harder to form a relationship with the PA leader, so they can work together for the best interest of the game.

There is so much BS being spouted from both sides at this point, I don't believe anybody.

If Bettman wanted to be friendly with Fehr he shold have invited him for drinks when he was first hired.

Just play Hockey. Give me 10min with them.

To borrow a phrase: I'll make them an offer they can't refuse.


Last edited by charliolemieux: 12-07-2012 at 12:45 AM.
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12-07-2012, 12:39 AM
  #929
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I figured since you posted the flick, you actually watched it first. My mistake.

I don't think alienating the players was his goal with the PC, but to inform the public of the events that occurred during the past few days. After the union's statements taking the NHL fanbase on an emotional rollercoaster ride, I for one appreciate knowing WTF actually happened, even if it's only one side's PoV. Fehr had a chance to state the union's PoV, but he decided to herp-a-derp instead.
Haha, yeah i got your reference obviously and while accurate taken out of context it still doesn't recognize my initial point
In regards to Fehr: you understand why the players got him in the first place right? It's well known and sort of tied to the video I posted. I just want to know, what did you think of Bettman's first offer to the players? Do you honestly think that any player would have considered that fair? Furthermore, why does bettman have to set such extremes to his methods, including recurring lockouts?

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12-07-2012, 12:44 AM
  #930
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I figured since you posted the flick, you actually watched it first. My mistake.

I don't think alienating the players was his goal with the PC, but to inform the public of the events that occurred during the past few days. After the union's statements taking the NHL fanbase on an emotional rollercoaster ride, I for one appreciate knowing WTF actually happened, even if it's only one side's PoV. Fehr had a chance to state the union's PoV, but he decided to herp-a-derp instead.
Two phrases stick out to me.

1. Bettman - "At some point you have to draw a line in the sand."

2. Daly - (contract length)"Is a hill we're willing to die on."


The players need to capitulate here.

Bettman said in 2004 there was 1 contract longer than 6 years. Now there is 90.

It has ****ed up free agency, and the trade deadline as much or more than the Cap itself has.

To me 5yr max means more player movement, which as a fan is a good thing.

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12-07-2012, 12:45 AM
  #931
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Two phrases stick out to me.

1. Bettman - "At some point you have to draw a line in the sand."

2. Daly - (contract length)"Is a hill we're willing to die on."


The players need to capitulate here.

Bettman said in 2004 there was 1 contract longer than 6 years. Now there is 90.

It has ****ed up free agency, and the trade deadline as much or more than the Cap itself has.

To me 5yr max means more player movement, which as a fan is a good thing.
Not only that but it gives the smaller market teams a fair shake because they can make short term plans and not 15 year plans. It just makes the league parity that much better.

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12-07-2012, 12:50 AM
  #932
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Originally Posted by meng666 View Post
Haha, yeah i got your reference obviously and while accurate taken out of context it still doesn't recognize my initial point
In regards to Fehr: you understand why the players got him in the first place right? It's well known and sort of tied to the video I posted. I just want to know, what did you think of Bettman's first offer to the players? Do you honestly think that any player would have considered that fair? Furthermore, why does bettman have to set such extremes to his methods, including recurring lockouts?
Gary's first offer was simply this. An opening offer.

Right now players get 57% so he offered 43% so that common sense would dictate that they meet in the middle at the reasonable number of 50%.

I think 43% was chosen carefully.

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12-07-2012, 12:58 AM
  #933
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
As a side note, I was a lot more impressed with Bettman's PC than Fehr's constant "I don't know"'s, and "We're not sure what's off the table. They told us we can contact them for clarification." crap. Seriously, this guy is supposed to be a professional?
Just how can Fehr answer those questions?.....as it was not his decision to make what the NHL takes off the table. That was the message that Gary later confirmed....it was all of the table.

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12-07-2012, 12:58 AM
  #934
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Gary's first offer was simply this. An opening offer.

Right now players get 57% so he offered 43% so that common sense would dictate that they meet in the middle at the reasonable number of 50%.

I think 43% was chosen carefully.
Fair enough.
In my opinion though it was a opener that set the tone for a rigid union. The dollar amount between the 43 and 57 was massive. Included all the other stipulations regarding existing contracts, free agency, etc. In a league experiencing such substantial profit an opening offer like that would have to offend the union. Especially after they capitulated to end the last lockout. I just would like a commissioner that could ease these transitions with less animosity and work stoppage; surely that can't be impossible.

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12-07-2012, 12:59 AM
  #935
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At the start of this process, I was neutral overall but felt owners were being too greedy even if this was all business.

The owners upped they're offers and give in to some of the things the PA wanted, yet the PA didn't accept a single thing of the 3 things the NHL asked for. So now I feel it's the PA/Fehr who are being the unreasonable ones.

Don't get me wrong, both Bettman and Fehr are doing they're job to get the best deal, just my outlook personally.

Whatever

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12-07-2012, 01:00 AM
  #936
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Not only that but it gives the smaller market teams a fair shake because they can make short term plans and not 15 year plans. It just makes the league parity that much better.
And on teams like EDM it forces them to bite the bullet.

When their big 4 are all 26,27,28 they are going to have to decide whether they can afford to keep them and sign them or move them to get other assets.

With a lowered cap and a contract max there is no way they could convince them to take a big enough home town discount to keep them together.

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12-07-2012, 01:01 AM
  #937
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Gary's first offer was simply this. An opening offer.

Right now players get 57% so he offered 43% so that common sense would dictate that they meet in the middle at the reasonable number of 50%.

I think 43% was chosen carefully.

So then why would he expect the players to simply to say yes to a take it or leave it offer? As he started with a stupid offer to simply piss them off. This is like a reoccurring nightmare.....

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12-07-2012, 01:04 AM
  #938
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Originally Posted by Sonny21 View Post
At the start of this process, I was neutral overall but felt owners were being too greedy even if this was all business.

The owners upped they're offers and give in to some of the things the PA wanted, yet the PA didn't accept a single thing of the 3 things the NHL asked for. So now I feel it's the PA/Fehr who are being the unreasonable ones.

Don't get me wrong, both Bettman and Fehr are doing they're job to get the best deal, just my outlook personally.

Whatever
Did the owners give in to all the players key elements.....no maximum term on contracts, and honour existing contracts fully?

It cuts both ways.

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12-07-2012, 01:07 AM
  #939
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Originally Posted by meng666 View Post
Fair enough.
In my opinion though it was a opener that set the tone for a rigid union. The dollar amount between the 43 and 57 was massive. Included all the other stipulations regarding existing contracts, free agency, etc. In a league experiencing such substantial profit an opening offer like that would have to offend the union. Especially after they capitulated to end the last lockout. I just would like a commissioner that could ease these transitions with less animosity and work stoppage; surely that can't be impossible.
The 43-57 is so that they meet in the middle. Simple negotiating. Liek at a yard sale. Your willing to pay $20 buck for something marked $30. So you offer $10.

Bettman was saying that they could have made a deal in february. NOw I know the NHLPA had no interest in negotiating at that point, but there was nothing stopping Bettman from just dropping that first proposal in the mail.

Both sides are to blame in this. We the fans are paying the price.

I want to do like an old fashioned book burning but with NHL merchandise, but I doubt I could get a permit for Dundas Square.

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12-07-2012, 01:11 AM
  #940
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
So then why would he expect the players to simply to say yes to a take it or leave it offer? As he started with a stupid offer to simply piss them off. This is like a reoccurring nightmare.....
It's just an opening offer.

It has come out that there are certain items that are "take it or leave it" but I am wondering if the NHLPA might have embelished it a bit saying the whole offer was "Take it or leave it".

It definitely is a reoccurring nightmare.

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12-07-2012, 01:29 AM
  #941
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
It's just an opening offer.

It has come out that there are certain items that are "take it or leave it" but I am wondering if the NHLPA might have embelished it a bit saying the whole offer was "Take it or leave it".

It definitely is a reoccurring nightmare.
It was Bettman who stated it was a take it or leave it offer!

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12-07-2012, 01:55 AM
  #942
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Did the owners give in to all the players key elements.....no maximum term on contracts, and honour existing contracts fully?

It cuts both ways.
Make whole has been a huge issue for players and owners upped they're offer to $300 million, they fixed the pension which was important to players.

I am not here to say owners are angels or anything, but the last few days they made a legit effort and movement to satisfy the players demands.

I just didn't see the same from the players side, which is fine.

In any case; if you disagree then good for you, was just stating how I felt about the last few days.

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12-07-2012, 02:00 AM
  #943
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Just how can Fehr answer those questions?.....as it was not his decision to make what the NHL takes off the table. That was the message that Gary later confirmed....it was all of the table.
does it not make sense that soon as you get that type of message that you then immediately get on the phone and talk to Daly or Bettman to get clarification before you go and talk to the media? or do anything else for that matter as it would seem pretty important

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12-07-2012, 03:06 AM
  #944
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Fehr should be done.

The players seemed really satisfied with what the owners were offering and Fehr stepped in and messed it up big time. Bettman is super pissed, you could see him shaking and the offers are off the table. He blew it all up and just ruined the season.

What does Fehr gain from having a season?

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12-07-2012, 03:25 AM
  #945
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That's not entirely true.
Well I mean when you think about it, you and I probably have more work experience than these guys

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12-07-2012, 05:25 AM
  #946
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Its the two of them man. Bettman and Fehr. I have a feeling this should start working towards a deal. They had there little fight, they need to take a time out, and then they'll get back at it.

If they cancel a season for the sake of the differences they currently have it is pure stupidity.
I agree. I can't see term being what cancels a season, and everyone involved knows that. Especially when an agreeable solution is so close. 5 years vs 8? That's not a hill worth dying on. For either side.

It'll be done soon.

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Originally Posted by LeafOfBread View Post
What's sad is that we were supposed to reach a deal Wednesday night, had Fehr not told the players to hold out some more. Burton's prophecy would've been fulfilled.

You believe that? How about what Ron Hainsy said? That they wanted to get the deal signed without professional help? Do you really think the owners thought they could get a handful of players to finalize a CBA for 700 men? It was a ploy to tease the players and fans. Let us all think this was it. Then pull the plug and blame Fehr. When (if) he's gone, they can go back to manipulating the players.

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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Not only that but it gives the smaller market teams a fair shake because they can make short term plans and not 15 year plans. It just makes the league parity that much better.
I actually think this could hurt smaller markets in the long run. Players today don't ask for league max, but they will with a 5 year max. 11-12M per year over 5 years. Get it while you can, cause you won't have a long term deal. I don't think Minny could afford a deal that paid 2 players 40% of the cap for 5 years.

In the end the 5 year term will mean tighter spending on depth players and massive disparity between the likes of the Kessels and the Frattins. One will get league max, the other will get routinely low balled, as a lot of teams will only carry one or 2 stars at that cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
Fehr should be done.

The players seemed really satisfied with what the owners were offering and Fehr stepped in and messed it up big time. Bettman is super pissed, you could see him shaking and the offers are off the table. He blew it all up and just ruined the season.

What does Fehr gain from having a season?
Bettman always shakes. His nickname should be Twitch. The owners are doing everything they can to try and publicly sway the opinion of the players and fans on Fehr. They are a 2-3 year discrepancy away from finalizing a deal and Fehr is the villian?

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12-07-2012, 05:53 AM
  #947
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Been watching Bettman for years, the feeling here is he is not bluffing. I think the players need a good dose of reality, in the real world unions are being more modest with their demands. I am siding with the Owners here, especially when they were willing to lump sum 300 million dollars to NHLPA.

A lost season is a very likely scenario unless the players come to their senses.

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12-07-2012, 06:38 AM
  #948
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Two phrases stick out to me.

1. Bettman - "At some point you have to draw a line in the sand."

2. Daly - (contract length)"Is a hill we're willing to die on."


The players need to capitulate here.

Bettman said in 2004 there was 1 contract longer than 6 years. Now there is 90.

It has ****ed up free agency, and the trade deadline as much or more than the Cap itself has.

To me 5yr max means more player movement, which as a fan is a good thing.

90 players with more than 5 yrs. So still a large minority holding everything up because of their greed. I'm sure that's sitting well with the remainder of the players that never expect to get more than a few years anyway.

Superstar greed will break the Union lol.

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12-07-2012, 08:10 AM
  #949
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Did Fehr even put the NHL's lastest offer to a full vote of the 700+ PA membership?

The PA came back whining for more BIG MISTAKE the owners have taken the gloves off now. The Fehr's & the PA are playing games and it's back firing in their faces.

Totaly on side with the NHL way too many teams losing money Bettman has to make sure he has a healthy product going forward to clean up the mess his expantion of the league created.

The NHL also is right to demand a 10 year CBA to avoid this BS again anytime soon.

Also 5 year deals is fair enough far too many ridiculous long term deals to circumvent the cap being given out by retarded GM's. Or would the PA prefer no gauranteed contracts.

NHL now needs to table their final take it or leave it deal. If the PA balks again shut it down and open the doors in September. But some of the owners are really pissed and i wonder if we may have already seen the NHL's final offer.

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12-07-2012, 08:14 AM
  #950
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Does anyone really care anymore other than reality tv?

Listening to Hockey Central the wonderfully insightful and brimming with knowledge Kypreos came out and said " what the hell is 575k going to do for a player anymore ". That's right 575 thousand dollars. After professional expenses that is pretty much what your Ontario surgeon grosses. The individual that saves lives, prolongs them and has sat in post secondary education for a decade or more. I lost all respect for the players at that moment. He countered with, 'how many people put there life on the line everyday and can end up in a wheel chair'. Well Nick. How about every police officer, firefighter, construction worker, high altitude electrician, military officer...shall I go on? Honestly.. What a block head!

Listening to their ridiculous rants on tv, twitter and radio makes my stomach curl. Watching them show up to meetings with their suits on and baseball caps and toques is laughable. You guys go ahead and waste your time with these bafoons, the greater society doesn't need hockey to survive.

I will get a kick come Jan and the league cancels the season. Then these dumb idiots can go home and ask themselves how they can throw away multi millions of dollars in a year when the average person has to struggle to make a living. These are not cattle, even cattle know when to come in when there is a storm. These guys are complete block heads.

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