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Lockout Thread: I told myself I wouldn't do this| Part IV

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Old
11-20-2012, 10:45 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Guaranteed contracts? What you most people leave out is the guarantee is the contract is always superceeded by the CBA and all players were aware of that and know full well that their contract will be affected by the CBA negotiations. Some were likely even based on it and inflated. Tired of the players talking about owners not honoring their contracts! Maybe players should start reading theirs!
Is the CBA a 2-way street that applies to both parties or just to the Owners benefit?

Instead of a Owners lockout, say we had a players strike instead when the previous CBA expired, and then NHLPA now offered the Owners a new proposal that increased their salaries from they're current contracted ones to +10% increases across the board in a take it or leave it offer, would you be okay with that? As a concession to eventually get a new CBA deal done they agreed to accept their current binding contracts at par, thus making a huge concession on their demands for pay increases a benefit to the Owners here.

After all the new CBA supersedes the previous one and so players would be totally within their similar rights as the Owners are now in changing the $$$ value on current contract deals. Players could demand earlier UFA age status, unlimited contract lengths and dollars (within the cap limits), greater arbitration rights to get contract disputes settled, no limit ELC contracts etc, and unless the Owners caved to all their demands they would hold the Owners and the fans hostage by legally striking until all their terms were meet, no different than the Owners are doing now.

Hey what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

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11-20-2012, 10:59 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Is the CBA a 2-way street that applies to both parties or just to the Owners benefit?

Instead of a Owners lockout, say we had a players strike instead, when the previous CBA expired and then NHLPA offered the Owners a new proposal that increased their salaries from they're current contracted ones to +10% increases across the board in a take it or leave it offer, would you be okay with that?

After all the new CBA supersedes the previous one and so players would be totally within their similar rights as the Owners are now in changing the $$$ value on current contract deals. Players could demand earlier UFA age status, unlimited contract lengths and dollars (within the cap limits), greater arbitration rights to get contract disputes settled, no limit ELC contracts etc, and unless the Owners caved to all their demands they would hold the Owners and the fans hostage by legally striking until all their terms were meet.

Hey what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
So the players woudl have striked last time and asked for 84% share of revenue????? Unless your talking about now where they already have 57% of the revenues and would look like total *******s!! You can't strike for more money when you already hold the majority share.

Once this deal is done and the 50/50 split is in place. Owners will no longer be able to do this. They only have a little leeway now because many people see that 50/50 is fair and needed. Also done by many of the other major sport leagues.

This is it! This is the last lockout that the league will be able to recover from if they can even recover fully from this.

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11-20-2012, 11:09 AM
  #178
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Owners should take the players offer and counter with one based on that offer. When you go to a meeting get a players offer and then hand out your own offer in the same meeting you aren't even considering the players offer.

How do you write up a counter offer in advance without ever seeing the offer you are supposedly countering?

You don't.
Of course you can do that. If the offer you received was worthwhile to negotiate off of...you know what you would do? You wouldn't pull out the offer you put together in advance. It's not rocket science.

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11-20-2012, 11:13 AM
  #179
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How, other than we aren't going to negotiate, would you interpret Bettman here?

If the owners were serious they'd say 50-50 with no other takeaways. They haven't they want to take away from every benefit/right the players have. And the make whole is only for existing contracts, and many have pointed out how many players contracts are expiring in the next year or two. Bettman makes it clear there is no negotiating the owners are willing to do. Take it or leave it.
The best proposl you'll be OFFERED and the best proposal you can NEGOTIATE are not the same thing. Saying that this is the best they're going to get from us doesn't mean that the players can't get something better from the owners than the current proposal, it means that the players either put another proposal down that appeals to the owners OR they negotiate something more favourable using the framework that the league has in place with their own proposal.

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11-20-2012, 11:27 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
So the players woudl have striked last time and asked for 84% share of revenue????? Unless your talking about now where they already have 57% of the revenues and would look like total *******s!! You can't strike for more money when you already hold the majority share.

Once this deal is done and the 50/50 split is in place. Owners will no longer be able to do this. They only have a little leeway now because many people see that 50/50 is fair and needed. Also done by many of the other major sport leagues.

This is it! This is the last lockout that the league will be able to recover from if they can even recover fully from this.
Unions strike in all walks of life when contracts expire and withhold services through striking while they negotiate wage increases for their membership.

This common business operating practice.

The only difference here is that this is a lockout, where Owners are withholding wages, until they can pay their employees less money so they can profit more themselves while the consumer (fans) pay the bills with no benefit from lower players salaries.

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11-20-2012, 11:46 AM
  #181
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Unions strike in all walks of life when contracts expire and withhold services through striking while they negotiate wage increases for their membership.

This common business operating practice.

The only difference here is that this is a lockout, where Owners are withholding wages, until they can pay their employees less money so they can profit more themselves while the consumer (fans) pay the bills with no benefit from lower players salaries.
Oh Please!! This is as much a walkout as it is a lockout. The only reason players didn't walkout is because then they'd have to stay here and walk a picket line instead of go steal someone else's job overseas. But hey! It's not stealing if they're in another continent right?

Players had every opportunity to hit the table long before July or whenever it was!! They waited until the last minute and then cry and whine that they got locked out! Boo hoo, next time be faster.

There is a large section of these owners that are locking out so they may actually see a profit which I understand. There is also a number of teams who's bump in profit is going to go back into the increased revenue sharing the PA is demanding. The only people profiting at the minute are a few select teams and EVERY SINGLE player

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11-20-2012, 12:46 PM
  #182
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Oh Please!! This is as much a walkout as it is a lockout. The only reason players didn't walkout is because then they'd have to stay here and walk a picket line instead of go steal someone else's job overseas. But hey! It's not stealing if they're in another continent right?

Players had every opportunity to hit the table long before July or whenever it was!! They waited until the last minute and then cry and whine that they got locked out! Boo hoo, next time be faster.

There is a large section of these owners that are locking out so they may actually see a profit which I understand. There is also a number of teams who's bump in profit is going to go back into the increased revenue sharing the PA is demanding. The only people profiting at the minute are a few select teams and EVERY SINGLE player
Completely wrong.

It is a lock-out.

Players said they'd play and negotiate.

How are any players "profiting at the minute"?

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11-20-2012, 12:50 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
Oh Please!! This is as much a walkout as it is a lockout. The only reason players didn't walkout is because then they'd have to stay here and walk a picket line instead of go steal someone else's job overseas. But hey! It's not stealing if they're in another continent right?

Players had every opportunity to hit the table long before July or whenever it was!! They waited until the last minute and then cry and whine that they got locked out! Boo hoo, next time be faster.

There is a large section of these owners that are locking out so they may actually see a profit which I understand. There is also a number of teams who's bump in profit is going to go back into the increased revenue sharing the PA is demanding. The only people profiting at the minute are a few select teams and EVERY SINGLE player
If your current employer, locked you out, told you to stay home while not paying your salary you previously agreed to, you would consider yourself profiting from the situation?

Unless you consider unpaid forced vacation like the players are currently on, as profiting by not having to work against their wishes to do so.

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Old
11-20-2012, 01:12 PM
  #184
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Completely wrong.

It is a lock-out.

Players said they'd play and negotiate.

How are any players "profiting at the minute"?
Like they played and negotiated last season???

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11-20-2012, 01:24 PM
  #185
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If your current employer, locked you out, told you to stay home while not paying your salary you previously agreed to, you would consider yourself profiting from the situation?

Unless you consider unpaid forced vacation like the players are currently on, as profiting by not having to work against their wishes to do so.
I was talking about over the course of the last CBA.

No one is profiting now.

The salary was based on the CBA which is now expired. So don't give me that ********! Players knew that and can't start crying about it now! It's not like these players have been taking discounts and are now getting screwed! They have been getting paid at a premium and I am not too sorry that for a short time they may have to give some back.

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11-20-2012, 02:38 PM
  #186
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Or you just believe people at face value without considering their motives? My wife believes salesmen, I believe they're trying to sell something and their motive is to get my money in their pocket, not make my life better.
No. I just don't twist words to hear what I want to hear which appears to be the case in this situation. It's very clear which side you're in support of and there's nothing wrong with that but consider that STATISTICALLY, the PA has steadily been losing support from fans over the last 2 weeks, directly correlated with their nonsense they've been putting in to the media. The PA are no angels right now and are sooner rather than later going to feel the pinch.

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Completely wrong.

It is a lock-out.

Players said they'd play and negotiate.

How are any players "profiting at the minute"?
Well OF COURSE they would play in a CBA that is heavily favoured to them. Why wouldn't they?

Regarding negotiations, it's VERY clear that the owners will NOT accept de-linked proposals. The PA needs to understand that or they'll be sitting for a while.

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Old
11-20-2012, 03:00 PM
  #187
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Both sides should sit down and do what's best for the fans, not what's best for their bottom-line.

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11-20-2012, 03:05 PM
  #188
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What? Memes aren't allowed?

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11-20-2012, 03:43 PM
  #189
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No. I just don't twist words to hear what I want to hear which appears to be the case in this situation. It's very clear which side you're in support of and there's nothing wrong with that but consider that STATISTICALLY, the PA has steadily been losing support from fans over the last 2 weeks, directly correlated with their nonsense they've been putting in to the media. The PA are no angels right now and are sooner rather than later going to feel the pinch.

Well OF COURSE they would play in a CBA that is heavily favoured to them. Why wouldn't they?

Regarding negotiations, it's VERY clear that the owners will NOT accept de-linked proposals. The PA needs to understand that or they'll be sitting for a while.
I don't disagree that they would play under the old system, but all that proves is that they are not the reason there is no NHL right now. The owners are the reason.

I'm not saying the owners are not within their right to lock-out the players, but it is a fact the owners have caused this lock-out as they are the only party that had that power/authority.

Fans always blame the "millionaire hockey players", same thing happened last time and the same thing will happen when the owners lock them out at the end of this next CBA.

Many people don't like the fact they get paid so much money to play a game.

Some people also think the players are being paid by billionaire owners, when the fans are paying billionaires who then share that with the players.

I could care less if the players made 10% or 90%.

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11-20-2012, 03:43 PM
  #190
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Who gives a crap about hockey anymore, honestly there's so much better things to do.

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11-20-2012, 06:04 PM
  #191
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It's shocking to me how stupid and unnecessary this lockout is. I can't believe they're on the cusp of losing another season. Last time I understood it and expected it. This time it's mind-blowing that they're doing this to the sport. Look at the money they're flushing down the toilet.

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11-20-2012, 06:16 PM
  #192
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Some stuff has (apparently) been agreed upon

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...osal-wednesday

Quote:
COMMON GROUND

The sides have more or less agreed to:

• Change the free agent calendar, meaning the market would open on June 15 or 48 hours after the awarding of the Stanley Cup — the players want whichever is later — instead of July 1. Arbitration dates may change as well.

• Allow cap space to be included in transactions, to encourage trades and get teams out from under heavy contracts.

• A joint health committee.

• Eliminate re-entry waivers.

• A neutral, third-party arbitrator to deal with appeals for on- and off-ice discipline.

• Minimum roster requirements to avoid situations where teams dress fewer than 18 players to save salary cap room.
GETTING CLOSER

The NHL has moved closer to the NHLPA position on:

• Entry-level contracts. The league wants a two-year limit. The players want to leave it at three.

• AHL salaries. The league is offering to count only those that exceed the NHL minimum ($525,000) against a team’s cap. The NHL had wanted the number closer to $95,000. The victory for the PA here is that AHL players won’t have their salaries count against the players’ share of hockey-related revenue. Accounting would be limited to players in the NHL.

• Unrestricted free agency. The league is offering freedom after eight years of service or age 28, after asking for 10 years. This year, players could become free agents after seven years of service, or age 27.

• Maintaining salary arbitration, but with eligibility pushed back to a player’s fifth season. The players are asking for arbitration after four years. The NHL initially wanted it abolished.

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11-20-2012, 06:27 PM
  #193
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Some stuff has (apparently) been agreed upon

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...osal-wednesday
This is good news, right?

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11-20-2012, 06:28 PM
  #194
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This is good news, right?
I'd say so. Especailly some of the contract related issues in the "getting closer" section.

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11-20-2012, 09:10 PM
  #195
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so there's only another hundred things to sort out?

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11-20-2012, 09:15 PM
  #196
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Well now Kraft is no longer part of the NHL? Hockeyville cancelled. When are they going to get their heads out of their ***** and get a deal done?

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11-20-2012, 11:58 PM
  #197
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Well now Kraft is no longer part of the NHL? Hockeyville cancelled. When are they going to get their heads out of their ***** and get a deal done?
Ask the NHLPA

NHL has made strides to bring this to a close ,, NHLPA has not

NHLPA has made no offers based on NHL framework (Only framework the NHL will accept) and they continue to show a childish attitude (Showing up late for every meeting including the one they themselves asked for)

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11-21-2012, 03:49 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
If your current employer, locked you out, told you to stay home while not paying your salary you previously agreed to, you would consider yourself profiting from the situation?

Unless you consider unpaid forced vacation like the players are currently on, as profiting by not having to work against their wishes to do so.
I still don't really get it to be honest...

The old cba expired... and neither the nhl or the nhlpa can agree to a new one.
So there's no hockey until they agree.

The fact that the nhlpa will continue to play under the old cba doesn't mean anything at all.
It's expired!!!!!

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11-21-2012, 04:25 AM
  #199
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still nothing going on it seems. man how sad is it to see the state of the league atm.

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11-21-2012, 05:49 AM
  #200
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I don't disagree that they would play under the old system, but all that proves is that they are not the reason there is no NHL right now. The owners are the reason.

I'm not saying the owners are not within their right to lock-out the players, but it is a fact the owners have caused this lock-out as they are the only party that had that power/authority.

Fans always blame the "millionaire hockey players", same thing happened last time and the same thing will happen when the owners lock them out at the end of this next CBA.

Many people don't like the fact they get paid so much money to play a game.

Some people also think the players are being paid by billionaire owners, when the fans are paying billionaires who then share that with the players.

I could care less if the players made 10% or 90%.
I still place alot of blame for the NHLPA not showing up to the table for so long and then taking a month to respond to the first offer.

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