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Old
11-26-2012, 09:08 PM
  #26
JCD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Johnson isn't that great and Schwartz should start over Fusco but the line hasn't even been that bad. According to ProFootballFocus, they're 11th in pass blocking, 2nd in run blocking, and 3rd best overall. That's only one person's (or website's) opinion but they are a credible site.
Don't know that website, but a quick read tells me I shouldn't.

Chiefs and Vikes in the top-four of offensive lines!!?!!?? Houston not even in the top-10?

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Originally Posted by Avs_19 View Post
Ponder makes the line look worse than it actually is. He still hasn't improved on the things they said he was working on all offseason. He doesn't step up when he should, other times he steps up when he should roll out, or he just hangs onto the ball for too long. Last season you could just tell that the line was a complete disaster and changes needed to be made. I haven't gotten that feeling at all this season.
I go with what my eyes tell me. The pocket collapses regularly and Ponder (who is terrible) doesn't have time to go through his reads. Ponder isn't helping matters, but we knew he was going to be a weak link, we should have over compensated and made sure he had some protection. With marginal receivers to work with (Harvin and scrubs), he will need all the help he can get.

Peterson makes the line look FAR better than it is. What he is doing is simply unreal. Even when 1st contact is made behind the line, he often still powers forward for positive yards.

IMO, the line is worse this year than last. Our tackles have been sound. Kalil has been solid and Loadholt having his best season (decent player, nothing special). It has been the interior that has killed us. Sullivan's play has dropped off considerably. He is a solid player, but not one that can anchor and compensate for lesser talents around him. Putting Fusco (who has been utterly terrible IMO... he is a short-yardage shover who can't get downfield nor pass block to save his life) and Johnson (a warm body) around put him on an island and got him exposed. IMO, Sullivan is a lot like Jeff Christy. Seems smart, can handle his own, but needs a equally as good partner near him to help him out against top talents. He can't handle them on his own.

A good litmus test for the decline of the line is Gerhart. He is about as mechanical of a runner as you can get. He has no elusiveness, so he will pick up the yardage that is there and not much else. He is down over a yard per carry from last year. We have to go off-tackle, there is no push inside.

Bright side, guards are the easiest position on the line to fill. I am confident Sullivan will bounce back if given some support.

But back to the topic at hand, Carlson has been a total waste. Lackluster blocker and invisible in the passing game. On mindless cheerleaders defend the move.

EDIT:

Here are some O-Line stats that make sense to me:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Big thing to note, Vike's RB is hit in the backfield 22% of the time... ranked 29th in the league. That isn't subjective. 27th in pass protection. Yet #1 in the open field and 3rd when we hit the secondary. Just goes to show what an absolute monster Peterson has been this year. That he is playing at all is amazing. That he is having the most impressive season of his career is jaw dropping. He is carrying the team on his back.


Last edited by JCD: 11-26-2012 at 09:19 PM.
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Old
11-26-2012, 10:27 PM
  #27
Clowe Me
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Speaking for John Carlson, he and Zach Miller sure went to **** very quickly.

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11-26-2012, 11:16 PM
  #28
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Free agency as a whole is a bust in the NFL. Unlike the other three major sports, there is no concept of a great player being allowed to hit the open market because his team could not afford him. With teams having the ability to restructure contracts at will, and considering the relatively few elite players at each position, there are very few instances of those players, the true franchise-changing talents, hitting the open market. When you see a "star" player on the market, it speaks volumes about his previous team's opinion of him. It should lead potential suitors to question whether or not that player is actually as good as his reputation. If he was, he probably wouldn't have ever hit the open market. Mario Williams is the poster child for the misguided teams that view free agency as a way to build the foundation of their roster. He was a very good player in Houston, but there is a fine, if very small, line between "very good" and "great", and Buffalo paid him to be a great, franchise-changing player. If Mario Williams was a great player, he would have been locked up long-term in Houston several years before his contract expired. Great players, especially ones in their prime, simply do not hit the unrestricted free agent market nowadays. And that should be a damning piece of knowledge that every NFL team should go into free agency thinking about. Teams that do not draft or develop well will usually be the ones handing out horrible contracts to tremendously over-rated players as a way to sell a "quick fix" to their fans.

The NFL has a history of free agent busts. Handing out a large contract to a prominent free agent is almost a sure bust waiting to happen. It's proven through history to be an almost 100% certainty that a "high-profile" player that signs a big contract through free agency will fail to be worth it. In NFL history, I can think of only two instances of a truly elite, franchise-type player hitting the open market and signing a big deal that actually worked out. And the more recent of the two happened in the first year of the salary cap. Reggie White signing with Green Bay in 1993 and Deion Sanders signing with San Francisco in 1994 (for one year) and Dallas in 1995. In the salary cap era, the list of big free agent successes is practically non-existent. Maybe Curtis Martin with the Jets. Drew Brees is obviously one, but he was not quite viewed as an elite, franchise-changing, Sanders/White-type player when he hit the open market. Obviously he turned into one. Charles Woodson was a great talent that had been injured a lot in Oakland and he turned into a great player in Green Bay. That's about it, honestly. The lesson is to avoid free agency as a means of building the foundation of your team. Use it to complement your foundation. Not as part of it. The 49ers learned their lesson with Nate Clements, and it is why they won't ever make that mistake again.

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Old
11-26-2012, 11:50 PM
  #29
EpochLink
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Top 3 free agent signings that I can name off the top of my head were Reggie White to the Packers, Deion Sanders to the 49ers/Cowboys and Drew Brees to the Saints.

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11-26-2012, 11:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD View Post
That he was going to be a bust was a near certainty.

Odds are he will get cut after next year and walk away with 11 million dollars for 2 seasons a with less than 20 catches and 100 yards total.

Glad he was our big-money addition of the off-season! Would have been stupid to spend that money on an Offensive Linemen.
I don't think there was anyone who liked the Carlson signing, money wise. He was paid as a Top 8 TE to be a backup. That's awful.

Otherwise Jerome Simpson was a shot in the dark with a weak WR corps. It was a one year deal so no big loss.

Our prize FA signing has been Jerome Felton! He's by far our best FB since Tony Richardson.


As for the OL. We weren't signing Carl Nicks or Grubbs and we did add a vet to the OL in Schwartz. He got injured in camp which gave Fusco the job. At this point Schwartz should probably be starting though.

Charlie Johnson is an ok backup who is starting. He definitely needs to be upgraded on. I'm fine with Kalil, Sullivan and Loadholt (As inconsistent as he is I think he should be re-signed, for the right price of course, because all it does is open another need if you don't.)

Vikings off-season needs:
WR (or 2)
LB
G (or 2)
DT
DB depth

I'd say QB too, but to be honest I'm not enamored with anyone from the current QB class and we'd probably just be reaching for a project again like we did with Ponder and I'm tired of stop gaps. (I maintain given our situation reaching for a QB was the right choice but I woulda took Dalton or traded down first.)

I'd get Ponder some outside weapons (FA signing AND 1st round pick. Allen, Woods or Hunter?) and start him again but with a short leash. I'd sign a vet or draft someone in the mid-rounds to push him.

Our WR corps is dreadful. Harvin and Wright are the only 2 WR on the roster who should be on it week 1 next year (Unless Childs miraculously recovers.) Cut Jenkins, let DA and Mr. Nice Guy walk and cut Burton in camp. Burton is a good blocker but he can't catch for ****.

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Old
11-26-2012, 11:57 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post
Top 3 free agent signings that I can name off the top of my head were Reggie White to the Packers, Deion Sanders to the 49ers/Cowboys and Drew Brees to the Saints.
Julius Peppers, Peyton Manning and Jonathon Joseph are all recent and have all had a huge impact on their respective teams.

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Old
11-27-2012, 12:55 AM
  #32
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Has Brandon Carr been any good for the Cowboys? $50M CB.

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11-27-2012, 06:40 AM
  #33
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Julius Peppers, Peyton Manning and Jonathon Joseph are all recent and have all had a huge impact on their respective teams.
Peppers is definitely one. I wouldn't put Manning in the same group because he never would have hit free agency if it weren't for the neck injury. And he wasn't really a typical marquee free agent because he never was the subject of a bidding war. Manning wasn't really available for more than a handful of teams, and money played little part in the whole process. He instructed his agent to start negotiating a contract after he chose Denver. Manning really only considered two teams; Denver and San Francisco. The only other team that was legitimately involved was Tennessee, and that was more a case of Manning listening to them out of respect rather than an actual potential destination. His situation wasn't anything like typical free agency.

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11-27-2012, 07:07 AM
  #34
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A few more good ones that I can think of are Charles Woodson, Simeon Rice and Rod Woodson.

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11-27-2012, 12:30 PM
  #35
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Jerome Simpson even thought only a 1 yr deal has been a complete bust in Minny as well

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Old
11-27-2012, 04:01 PM
  #36
JCD
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I don't think there was anyone who liked the Carlson signing, money wise. He was paid as a Top 8 TE to be a backup. That's awful.
Still have some fans defending it in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
Otherwise Jerome Simpson was a shot in the dark with a weak WR corps. It was a one year deal so no big loss.

Our prize FA signing has been Jerome Felton! He's by far our best FB since Tony Richardson.

As for the OL. We weren't signing Carl Nicks or Grubbs and we did add a vet to the OL in Schwartz. He got injured in camp which gave Fusco the job. At this point Schwartz should probably be starting though.

Charlie Johnson is an ok backup who is starting. He definitely needs to be upgraded on. I'm fine with Kalil, Sullivan and Loadholt (As inconsistent as he is I think he should be re-signed, for the right price of course, because all it does is open another need if you don't.)

Vikings off-season needs:
WR (or 2)
LB
G (or 2)
DT
DB depth

I'd say QB too, but to be honest I'm not enamored with anyone from the current QB class and we'd probably just be reaching for a project again like we did with Ponder and I'm tired of stop gaps. (I maintain given our situation reaching for a QB was the right choice but I woulda took Dalton or traded down first.)

I'd get Ponder some outside weapons (FA signing AND 1st round pick. Allen, Woods or Hunter?) and start him again but with a short leash. I'd sign a vet or draft someone in the mid-rounds to push him.

Our WR corps is dreadful. Harvin and Wright are the only 2 WR on the roster who should be on it week 1 next year (Unless Childs miraculously recovers.) Cut Jenkins, let DA and Mr. Nice Guy walk and cut Burton in camp. Burton is a good blocker but he can't catch for ****.
Only point I would differ on is the OL and QB. I don't mind Jenkins as a 4th WR, I would keep him in that spot for the right price.

Schwartz was/is a warm body coming off injury, not a solution. If he was the 2nd O-Linemen we signed to push other players, great. Had we added one solid vet... not even a stud, just a solid vet... we would have been far better off. Say that Mr. X starts in place of Fusco. That gives us the flexibility to bench Johnson should Fusco/Schwatz step up. What is really scary... what if we have an injury? It is Berger or Asper filing in. Berger is another warm body, Asper is an unknown (at best). We might get to see that scenario with Johnson hurt. Worse... what if Loadholt or Kalil go down for any time? Back to Johnson at tackle... that would give us garbage at 3 of 5 starting spots. I know depth is a luxury. But it was a solvable problem that we ignored.

Never will agree that reaching for Ponder was the right choice. It is moves like that that set franchises back for years. Ponder was/is a 'B' or 'C' class prospect with a limited ceiling. You don't build a franchise around that. We wasted 2 years waiting for him to develop already... I would bet we give him at least one more before pulling the plug. That is three years of Peterson's prime gone. Had we drafted Ponder (or Dalton, etc.) in the 2nd, we would have had a talent worthy of the 12th pick on the roster to help with the rebuild.

Vikes are/were in rebuild mode. Reaching for need is the absolute worst thing you can possibly do. Take the best player available. Use the mid to late round picks to roll the dice. Fill in the rest with competent vets as placeholders. No reason to fill the QB spot immediately.

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11-27-2012, 04:57 PM
  #37
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Aaron Kampman with the Jags.

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Old
11-27-2012, 07:19 PM
  #38
EpochLink
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Aaron Kampman with the Jags.
Bust signing, didn't the Packers win the Super Bowl the next year as well? Ouch.

Plus he didn't like playing in Green Bay's 3-4 defense.

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11-28-2012, 11:56 AM
  #39
Nazem Bozak
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Has Brandon Carr been any good for the Cowboys? $50M CB.
He hasn't been 50M good but it was still a good signing (if that makes sense)

Because it gave rob ryan more opportunities to open the playbook with corners that can cover pretty well

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Old
12-09-2012, 02:07 PM
  #40
Layne Staley
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LOL at this thread.Mario Williams a bust?10.5 sacks in 13 games?Maybe these journalist clowns should wait longer then 5 ****ing games before calling people a bust.Since Mario had his wrist surgery hes been a top 3 DE.

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