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Old
12-14-2012, 10:02 PM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
The two sides will meet in NYC this Wed again and I believe that we will have see an agreement made shortly there after. I am again wildly optimistic that we will see an NHL season begin early13. SOME teams (one that we all love) have contacted staff hockey personnel about potential return to play soon.
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Its like watching a reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllly slow game of texas hold em.

The obvious counter to the DOI is exactly what the NHL has done and then the next move is on the PA who will counter the order (if it comes) or file for decert and then the NHL can re-file their complaint and before we know it we are at Xmas and then we are done with the early gamesmanship and can have a deal signed.

I do agree with the PA in this instance, they have the right to form a union and a right to agree what happens with it. But then the NHL is doing whatever it can to stop the PA from finding a judge to from saying that the lock out is an unfair practice blah blah blah.

Best case scenario, let the courts decide an equitable CBA ala the NBA, that will make both sides equally happy and unhappy at the same time.


It will also let everyone save the same amount of face and get us back to playing hockey again and quickly too.

I wonder if .......... Nah.

The owners and gb just opened a can of whoopass. I would urge everyone to go through the lawsuit. The blabbing by the players via interviews, twitter might bite them.

Very interesting turn.

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12-14-2012, 10:22 PM
  #577
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Do you have a link? I could not find it on Pacer.

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12-14-2012, 10:26 PM
  #578
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Never mind, I found it.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...nhlvsnhlpa.pdf

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12-14-2012, 10:47 PM
  #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scramble91 View Post
The owners and gb just opened a can of whoopass. I would urge everyone to go through the lawsuit. The blabbing by the players via interviews, twitter might bite them.

Very interesting turn.
Don't know where quoting me over two different posts that took place several days apart has to do with anything but I do agree that a few of the comments by the players make them look bad.

The Kings do have a couple of players who were in EU back in NA already that have been confirmed as well as sometime late next week most NA players including Kings will be at the break of their EU contracts for a couple of weeks so that does make it easier for things to come together quickly if/when a deal is done. (JB could be returning for the Spengler cup if the lock out continues on for too long).

That said, if you look at what is going on objectively and compare our negotiations with the NFL and NBA and even MLB is some ways this is exactly how things end up getting done. I am remain optimistic but situations do change day to day especially during billion dollar contract negotiations.

Some will argue that 1/11/13 is the obvious start date for NHL play to return and some like me believe that the earliest players will return to camp will be on or right after 1/1/13 but a return to play to me seems to be coming based on everything that is being said by everyone involved.

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12-14-2012, 10:54 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Don't know where quoting me over two different posts that took place several days apart has to do with anything but I do agree that a few of the comments by the players make them look bad.

The Kings do have a couple of players who were in EU back in NA already that have been confirmed as well as sometime late next week most NA players including Kings will be at the break of their EU contracts for a couple of weeks so that does make it easier for things to come together quickly if/when a deal is done. (JB could be returning for the Spengler cup if the lock out continues on for too long).

That said, if you look at what is going on objectively and compare our negotiations with the NFL and NBA and even MLB is some ways this is exactly how things end up getting done. I am remain optimistic but situations do change day to day especially during billion dollar contract negotiations.

Some will argue that 1/11/13 is the obvious start date for NHL play to return and some like me believe that the earliest players will return to camp will be on or right after 1/1/13 but a return to play to me seems to be coming based on everything that is being said by everyone involved.
Sorry tg. I just pressed the wrong button (iPhone). Must have hit multi quote somehow.

Back on topic, I don't think this lawsuit will ever go anywhere, but this could force the players hand to get it done.

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12-14-2012, 11:05 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by scramble91 View Post
Sorry tg. I just pressed the wrong button (iPhone). Must have hit multi quote somehow.

Back on topic, I don't think this lawsuit will ever go anywhere, but this could force the players hand to get it done.
Totally cool, just didn't understand how to respond.

I think that the NHL's lawsuit was or is an attempt to circumvent the PA's coming filing for decertification which appears to be the way that all new CBA's are or will have to be conducted from now on.

I posted somewhere on here that the majority of an agreement/contract was in place and from what I can tell it still is. The make whole is rumored to still need to be figured out and that is a sort of big thing and then as others have reported the EU competition etc all need to be figured out too but those aren't huge things and if everything else is in place or close to it then I can't see any reason that the two sides wouldn't just sit down and figure it out.

After reading through the entire NHL and NHLPA's position on their respective filings etc it seems to me like this is nothing more than posturing for the sake of posturing at this point or maybe that it is just a method for saving face/forcing the other to blink first.

It is interesting for certain though.

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12-14-2012, 11:07 PM
  #582
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First impressions:

1. Hell of a read.

2. Concise, well-prepared, and tight brief.

3. Twitter and other dumb-ass statements backfires on players.

4. NHL punks the NHLPA yet again. A pattern emerges.

The reality:

The document will probably never be decided upon. The NHLPA will work all weekend on a response, file it first thing Monday morning, some judge will fall asleep reading both briefs, set a court date about a hundred years from now, and will never act on it.

Okay, some of the above are slight exaggerations (I emphasize "slight"), but being familiar with how lawsuits work, these are all leverage tactics. The NHL makes a real legitimate claim against the NHLPA and its members in its brief. Which brief will be better? Ulitmately it does not matter...what matters most is the perception by either side where they stand at this point in time and who wants to "blink" next in order to move the process forward.

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12-14-2012, 11:17 PM
  #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
First impressions:

1. Hell of a read.

2. Concise, well-prepared, and tight brief.

3. Twitter and other dumb-ass statements backfires on players.

4. NHL punks the NHLPA yet again. A pattern emerges.

The reality:

The document will probably never be decided upon. The NHLPA will work all weekend on a response, file it first thing Monday morning, some judge will fall asleep reading both briefs, set a court date about a hundred years from now, and will never act on it.

Okay, some of the above are slight exaggerations (I emphasize "slight"), but being familiar with how lawsuits work, these are all leverage tactics. The NHL makes a real legitimate claim against the NHLPA and its members in its brief. Which brief will be better? Ulitmately it does not matter...what matters most is the perception by either side where they stand at this point in time and who wants to "blink" next in order to move the process forward.

It was a long read and I agree with your first impressions and appreciate having a legal person who is familiar with U.S. law to go over things. We are lucky here to have a few lawyers to rely on for situations like this.

I think that the NHL's actions will be seen for what it is and so will the PA's and that is nothing more than a negotiation tactic. In the end both sides get ordered back to fix this thing and sign the deal or the courts will step in and work it out which could be what they wanted.

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12-14-2012, 11:26 PM
  #584
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Hey guys,

worked a 12 hour shift and have another one coming up in 8 hours, does anyone mind summarizing how exactly the NHL > NHLPA in terms of these filed lawsuits/decertification articles? I looked at the main boards (holy moses do those posters hate the players) and saw a bunch of posts saying how Miller will regret what he said ect..

Someone mind throwing a mini-summary up of the lawsuit link? IE: how did the twitter posts backfire? I tried clicking with the intention to read but.. my eyes went fuzzy :/.

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12-14-2012, 11:26 PM
  #585
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Tonelli and Ron

Thank you for all the insight, its been very informative and I appreciate the effort in keeping us up to date.

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12-14-2012, 11:26 PM
  #586
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even though i find it funny watching the players tie their own noose around their neck, i think if and when we get hockey back it'll be different. it wont be like in 2005 where the fans welcome the nhl back. there are gonna be a lot of pissed off people fans, players.

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12-14-2012, 11:35 PM
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattias View Post
Hey guys,

worked a 12 hour shift and have another one coming up in 8 hours, does anyone mind summarizing how exactly the NHL > NHLPA in terms of these filed lawsuits/decertification articles? I looked at the main boards (holy moses do those posters hate the players) and saw a bunch of posts saying how Miller will regret what he said ect..

Someone mind throwing a mini-summary up of the lawsuit link? IE: how did the twitter posts backfire? I tried clicking with the intention to read but.. my eyes went fuzzy :/.
I could but Ron will do a better job of it.

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:48 PM
  #588
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Thanks for your kind words; to clarify, I am not an attorney but have worked as an investigator in the federal criminal and civil courts for over 25 years...and have written prosecution reports, briefs, affidavits, etc. so I am familiar with law, decisions, etc.

Labor law is fascinating but very complex (as you can see by the brief).

Anyway, my takes were "first impressions." Will Miller actually regret what he said? Probably, but no in the context "I ****ed up the whole NHLPA position" but rather in the context "I sound stupid now that my quote is part of a lawsuit." In other words, he should probably be more embarrassed then worried that his words are going to damage the NHLPA's negotiating position.

Having said that, it adds fuel to the fire that the NHLPA is playing games with the legal system rather than being a forthright, honest player in it. That goes pretty far in the eyes of an unbiased judge.

Okay, here is my short summary for you: I said the Twitter posts backfired as my "first impression" read of the lawsuit. But the bottom line is the judge will probably take them for what they are worth: emotional utterances without thought from people heavily invested in the outcome of these negotiations, to wit: he will probably give them a heavy discount in terms of deciding whether the league will be granted relief (as requested in the brief).

As I said above, I really don't believe that this brief will ever be judged upon. It is one more piece of attempted leverage by the league, to be matched (more or less, in terms of content) by the PA as early as Monday morning.

It's a chess match at this point folks...a long and tiring one, to be sure.

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12-15-2012, 01:11 AM
  #589
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I had a feeling the players' talk of using disclaimer/decertification as a negotiating tactic would come back to bite them, and man, has it ever. You would think Fehr is smart enough to tell his players to not blatantly state they would considering it solely as a means to gain leverage in a negotiation.

Bettman and Daly were probably sitting there licking their chops every time a player said something stupid. File that article away and add the quote to the brief. Seems like the PA played right into the NHL's hands.

P.S. I love how all the "Union/players are as strong as ever" quotes are being used against the PA.

P.P.S. The NHL cited some damning case law regarding the players' cries about honoring the contracts they signed. Contracts are subject to the terms of the operative CBA. When there is no operative CBA, the contracts are no longer subject to those terms.


Last edited by Chazz Reinhold: 12-15-2012 at 01:18 AM.
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Old
12-15-2012, 03:12 AM
  #590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
First impressions:

1. Hell of a read.

2. Concise, well-prepared, and tight brief.

3. Twitter and other dumb-ass statements backfires on players.

4. NHL punks the NHLPA yet again. A pattern emerges.

The reality:

The document will probably never be decided upon. The NHLPA will work all weekend on a response, file it first thing Monday morning, some judge will fall asleep reading both briefs, set a court date about a hundred years from now, and will never act on it.

Okay, some of the above are slight exaggerations (I emphasize "slight"), but being familiar with how lawsuits work, these are all leverage tactics. The NHL makes a real legitimate claim against the NHLPA and its members in its brief. Which brief will be better? Ulitmately it does not matter...what matters most is the perception by either side where they stand at this point in time and who wants to "blink" next in order to move the process forward.
I'm not a lawyer but that thing seems waterproof. NHLPA looks bad once again.

And I will shime in on thanking for all info from everyone. great work

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12-15-2012, 11:15 AM
  #591
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After reading that legal document. Wow. Just wow. I can not believe how badly the players have stepped on their own throats.

Even quotes from their own labor union leader have helped them tie their own noose.

This is just bad for the NHLPA. Really bad.

Where is a ref to step in and say "Stop chirping and play the game" when you need em?

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12-15-2012, 11:43 AM
  #592
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Originally Posted by Jason Lewis View Post
After reading that legal document. Wow. Just wow. I can not believe how badly the players have stepped on their own throats.

Even quotes from their own labor union leader have helped them tie their own noose.

This is just bad for the NHLPA. Really bad.

Where is a ref to step in and say "Stop chirping and play the game" when you need em?
It seems like they (the pa) will be dealing with it this weekend.

Regardless, to me it seems like it is at least possible that this is what the PA wanted to happen all along. The league files its suit in response to the threat of DOI and now will end up forcing the PA to file for decertification which will make the two sides end up in court and be forced to get a deal done ala the NBA and NFL.

It could be a case of the Fehrs just being really bad at their jobs too but I have a hard time believing that based on their success record.

I don't know, I do know that there are players who were all for the October contract and there were players who were happy with the NHL's latest offer as well so it could be that the PA has lost touch with its members but I doubt it.

Even if the courts allowed the PA to decertify and all contracts between players and NHL entities were voided there would still be the need for a collective bargaining agreement to deal with certain unavoidable aspects of the game that involve every player and every NHL team as well as the league as a whole.

So in the end there is a need for a CBA in order for the NHL to exist and as such there has to be a deal made between the players and the NHL giving them (the players) negotiating power as well as requiring them to form a group or union in order to deal with the league as players.

In the end there are people who have a league and people who want to play in it. It comes down to a simple case of supply and demand, the rest are details.

The market (us) want to watch the best players in the world play hockey. The bus creates a venue to provide us with the ability to do so and then the players are hired to play the game giving us what we want. Its easy.

There, problem solved..........

Everyone is going to be made to come to the table by the courts and I think that this has been everyones desire from the get go.

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12-15-2012, 12:24 PM
  #593
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Nick Cotsonika ‏@cotsonika
NHL has given PA two options -- take it or leave it. If PA chooses to leave it, that means disclaimer. That makes it real, not a tactic.

https://twitter.com/cotsonika/status/279951322789318656

Now THIS is interesting......


I was asked to post where I think we are in the negotiating process.

I think we are closer to seeing an end to the lockout today then we were three days ago and that everything that is happening is bringing these negotiations closer together even though they seem further apart.

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12-15-2012, 12:26 PM
  #594
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Why does anyone think these owners will not cancel another season.

These guys make Hundreds of Millions ELSEWHERE. The NHL is not even close to their primary source of income. Not even Toronto.

These owners are serious, They have already cancelled one season. They will do it again.

The NHL does not make enough money, for the owners to care about playing.

When the NHLPA insulted the Moderate owners, that was probably the last straw.

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12-15-2012, 12:35 PM
  #595
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Why does anyone think these owners will not cancel another season.

These guys make Hundreds of Millions ELSEWHERE. The NHL is not even close to their primary source of income. Not even Toronto.

These owners are serious, They have already cancelled one season. They will do it again.

The NHL does not make enough money, for the owners to care about playing.

That isn't entirely right in every situation.

I agree that the owners could cancel the season but not every team is owned by an individual, several teams have a primary owner and then a collective of lesser invested primaries.

Some of these people have invested the majority of their assets into owning an NHL team and are being/could be very hurt by the loss of an entire season. It happened during the last two lock outs. Of course the teams that are making money and the teams that owned by billionaire's aren''t going to be really hurt by the loss of a season and have the financial position to be able to weather the storm for at least one season to get what they want but then at some point the players will do other things as well.

That is why the last lock out ended when it did and in the manner that it did. Everyone got to the who is going to blink first point and then pitched the season went to court and signed the current CBA. I am of the opinion that the lesson was learned last time that it wasn't worth the hit that the game took for the way things worked out.

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12-15-2012, 12:44 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
That isn't entirely right in every situation.

I agree that the owners could cancel the season but not every team is owned by an individual, several teams have a primary owner and then a collective of lesser invested primaries.

Some of these people have invested the majority of their assets into owning an NHL team and are being/could be very hurt by the loss of an entire season. It happened during the last two lock outs. Of course the teams that are making money and the teams that owned by billionaire's aren''t going to be really hurt by the loss of a season and have the financial position to be able to weather the storm for at least one season to get what they want but then at some point the players will do other things as well.

That is why the last lock out ended when it did and in the manner that it did. Everyone got to the who is going to blink first point and then pitched the season went to court and signed the current CBA. I am of the opinion that the lesson was learned last time that it wasn't worth the hit that the game took for the way things worked out.
No one learned anything, Cause we are in another lockout with half the season gone.

If anything all that was learned was, the owners figured out that Hockey fans will come back no matter what they do.

So why not just lose another season, if it gets Them a fantastic CBA ?

The players learned nothing, they hired a guy known for work stoppage and not giving owners anything.

The NHLPA by last CBA standard have already lost 500Mill + .

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12-15-2012, 12:58 PM
  #597
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I think both sides are stubborn enough to find a way to go through a court process. I know this tactic worked to get a deal in the NBA and NFL, but neither of those are the NHL and NHLPA, and Donald Fehr wasn't involved.

The NHL has cancelled a season already(with no help from the PA to save that season), and Donald Fehr led the way to a cancelled World Series. The two worst labor battles in sports. It's the worst marriage possible.

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12-15-2012, 01:12 PM
  #598
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I agree TG, we've hit the point of ULTIMATE take it or leave it.

And this is when the real stuff begins, cause both sides are at a point where they have everything to lose.

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12-15-2012, 06:07 PM
  #599
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411715

Copy of lawsuit NHL has filed today

Edit: NHL threatens to void all contracts if NHLPA files disclaimer of interest or decertifies.

See this is an interesting bit of information because if the NHL voids all contracts between teams and players then they risk losing the entire league or having to attempt to re-instate them in order to get things going again and that would give the players a negotiating advantage imo.

Of course the league could make rules that would force returning players to return to their previous agreements but then this would only cause dissension and likely a complete change to the face of the game. We could see teams relocate, a new draft etc I mean if the contracts are voided by the NHL it coudl really come back and bite them in the butt.

www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411715

CP: Players to vote electronically starting Sunday (12/16), ending Thursday (12/20). 2/3rd approval required. If approved, union has until 1/2/13 to file disclaimer of interest.

The thing is this, the league is flexing its muscles in a crazy manner and so are the players. But both sides are only doing so because they want an amicable ending to the negotiating process and believe that the other side is acting in an unfair manner.

This is lagger heads at its finest. Will the courts be forced to decide what needs to happen and make these two entities sit down and work things out? Will the two sides step away from the brink and get things done? Will we see an end not only to this season but also to the NHL as we know it?

I don't know, to me everyone is just chest thumping and that the deal that was close to being completed will be close to what everyone agrees to in the end anyways. The only question that I am concerned with is when. Will we see this worked out in time for a season to happen starting in 1/13 or not. Other than that I can't see anyone willing to destroy the NHL to save it. Too much pie left to eat.

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12-15-2012, 06:51 PM
  #600
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Game of chicken.

Basically, the game is over. Either the season is or this bull **** is. Time to make a deal.

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