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11-21-2012, 09:50 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
I have never seen one partner lock out another partner in a viable partnership.

You guys care to explain how that works?
Under the legal definition, you are right they are not a "Partnership." Although one can argue that they may be, since they DO share in the profits, and they DO have a say in the direction of certain aspects of the business. But your, right, legally I would say they are not technically "Partners." But, because of the uniqueness of the business, even though they are not partners under the legal definition, there can be no business without both sides working as partners. It is not like the NHL can go out and find other alternatives to keep the business going. Without the players, there is no business. So in a sense, even though they are not legally "partners," it is naive and unwise in my view to look at the players as just any other employee. They clearly are not.

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11-21-2012, 10:20 PM
  #127
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I thought only hrudey played.
Actually I think the main host was a GM for the Leafs
But PJ Stock and Glen Healy were players

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Old
11-21-2012, 10:42 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
I have never seen one partner lock out another partner in a viable partnership.

You guys care to explain how that works?
It's not a viable partnership. It's called a partnership because they rely on eachother. Just like in 94 (i believe) the players chose to essentially walk out because they were being robbed. They took the owners to the cleaners in that CBA but the owners quickly agreed because they knew they had been making money off a nightmarish agreement that the previous PA accepted.


It goes both ways in every sport. It's not just the owners always locking players out.

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:03 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCA View Post
Under the legal definition, you are right they are not a "Partnership." Although one can argue that they may be, since they DO share in the profits, and they DO have a say in the direction of certain aspects of the business. But your, right, legally I would say they are not technically "Partners." But, because of the uniqueness of the business, even though they are not partners under the legal definition, there can be no business without both sides working as partners. It is not like the NHL can go out and find other alternatives to keep the business going. Without the players, there is no business. So in a sense, even though they are not legally "partners," it is naive and unwise in my view to look at the players as just any other employee. They clearly are not.
Except for in 2004-05, and apparently this year as well.

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11-21-2012, 11:05 PM
  #130
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It's not a viable partnership. It's called a partnership because they rely on eachother. Just like in 94 (i believe) the players chose to essentially walk out because they were being robbed. They took the owners to the cleaners in that CBA but the owners quickly agreed because they knew they had been making money off a nightmarish agreement that the previous PA accepted.


It goes both ways in every sport. It's not just the owners always locking players out.
You are talking ancient history. 1994 was 18 years ago.

There are no player strikes anymore. The last two NHL work stoppages have been lockouts, the last NBA work stoppage was a lockout, and the last NFL work stoppage was a lockout.

Welcome to sports economics in the 21st Century.

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11-21-2012, 11:11 PM
  #131
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NHL rejection could lead union to decertify

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:00 AM
  #132
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NHL lockout talks break off again with frustration

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:10 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
Except for in 2004-05, and apparently this year as well.
I am not quite sure what you are arguing here.. Are you saying that because there was a work stoppage 8 years ago, this negates everything that I said? Do you disagree with what I said? Are you taking another position? Anyways, if we lose another season the NHL is toast among the casual fan base in the United States, and will lost a good chunk I believe among the die hard fan base. You cannot expect fans to dish out hundreds, if not thousands of dollars per year and expect them to put up with cancelled seasons every 7-10 years. Surely Gary Bettman and the NHL understand this.

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11-22-2012, 12:29 AM
  #134
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****, so no progress?

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Old
11-22-2012, 07:24 AM
  #135
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****, so no progress?
I wouldn't necessary call the last meeting no progress.
It was the first meeting where the NHLPA started talking percentages instead of fixed $ raises.
Like Bob McKenzie said...it seems that the NHL and NHLPA managed to join the same Universe for the first time since the CBA talks started.

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11-22-2012, 08:26 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Minor Boarding View Post
I wouldn't necessary call the last meeting no progress.
It was the first meeting where the NHLPA started talking percentages instead of fixed $ raises.
Like Bob McKenzie said...it seems that the NHL and NHLPA managed to join the same Universe for the first time since the CBA talks started.
And THAT is absolutely humungous. I'm actually more positive about everything after yesterdays meetings, regardless off the BS PR stuff.

When are these guys going to stop biting themselves in the ass with the PR stuff? I really wish this was 1970 and not 2012 where anyone with an opinion can say something stupid on twitter if their brain cells stop working for 10-20 seconds.

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11-22-2012, 08:43 AM
  #137
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Bobby Ryan has agreed to play for Mora IK, where AK11 is currently playing. Sounds deadly to have both of them on the same line!

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:14 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Weeks View Post
There's a blast from the past. Nice of him to roll out of bed and make sense of everything for us.
Here's his response:

Quote:
Jeff O'Neill @odognine2
My last tweet was inappropriate. Someone hacked my acct.
Keyboard warriors ...... Stuff your responses up your ass. I'm tired of blocking you idiots. Sorry hacked again.
Ah, the old lie about his account being hacked. Now pray tell, who would even care to hack the account of an old-has-been retired hockey player?

I think old Jeff suffered one to many hard hits.

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:28 AM
  #139
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Here is a pretty good summary of where we are at this point in time:

Tune out the noise, we're closer to a deal

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Old
11-22-2012, 10:31 AM
  #140
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I am sure he is sarcastically joking This whole lockout is one big chest pounding cluster **** by both sides. Just pathetic. It is a testament to being a Kings fan that we even have to wait an additional year for our banner raising ceremony, as if we hadn't waited long enough to win a cup...

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Old
11-22-2012, 12:42 PM
  #141
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A pretty good primer on the idea of de-certifying a pro sports players' union:

NHLPA’s hard-liners hint at decertification after latest offer rejected

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Old
11-22-2012, 01:19 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Ron View Post
A pretty good primer on the idea of de-certifying a pro sports players' union:

NHLPA’s hard-liners hint at decertification after latest offer rejected
The PA is not going to decertify. We are not at that point yet, and I am not sure if the Union would ever consider such a step.

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11-22-2012, 01:26 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by HockeyCA View Post
I am not quite sure what you are arguing here.. Are you saying that because there was a work stoppage 8 years ago, this negates everything that I said? Do you disagree with what I said? Are you taking another position? Anyways, if we lose another season the NHL is toast among the casual fan base in the United States, and will lost a good chunk I believe among the die hard fan base. You cannot expect fans to dish out hundreds, if not thousands of dollars per year and expect them to put up with cancelled seasons every 7-10 years. Surely Gary Bettman and the NHL understand this.

There is no multi Billion Dollar T.V. contract to save cruddy franchises.

Even if Revenue sharing is increased; you can't increase it to the levels of Yankees/Redsox. The top teams in the NHL don't make enough, well maybe the Habs/Leafs do.

So far though I am sure the Leafs/Habs ownership groups have made it clear, that they don't want to subsidies the league.

Cause if they did want too, we would be seeing Hockey already.

The NHL/NHLPA is in a unique situation, the league(as a whole) does not make enough money to motivate the majority of owners/players to just want to play.

That puts a serious wrench in negotiating plans.

About the whole casual fan thing; there are none in the NHL, well at least not enough to matter.

There are waiting lists for STH for the top franchises; both sides know exactly what the NHL fan is.

The NHL fan is someone that is not going to leave cause of another lost season. May lose a few, but again not enough to matter.

Even if the attendance drops off; owners will simply lower ticket prices 10 to 15%, and everyone will come right back(StubHub is already under market value, it would be even cheaper).

Nether side is afraid of fans not showing up to games; if they had any fear, a deal would have been struck by now.

That is not fan's fault, it's simply the nature of Hockey being a niche sport.

My point is the PIE is not very big in the NHL, so both sides want as much as they can get.

I don't blame the players for trying to guarantee themselves a certain amount of money.

I also don't blame the owners for trying to turn a profit off a league, that doesn't exactly make a lot of profit.


Last edited by damacles1156: 11-22-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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Old
11-22-2012, 02:12 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
There is no multi Billion Dollar T.V. contract to save cruddy franchises.

Even if Revenue sharing is increased; you can't increase it to the levels of Yankees/Redsox. The top teams in the NHL don't make enough, well maybe the Habs/Leafs do.

So far though I am sure the Leafs/Habs ownership groups have made it clear, that they don't want to subsidies the league.

Cause if they did want too, we would be seeing Hockey already.

The NHL/NHLPA is in a unique situation, the league(as a whole) does not make enough money to motivate the majority of owners/players to just want to play.

That puts a serious wrench in negotiating plans.

About the whole casual fan thing; there are none in the NHL, well at least not enough to matter.

There are waiting lists for STH for the top franchises; both sides know exactly what the NHL fan is.

The NHL fan is someone that is not going to leave cause of another lost season. May lose a few, but again not enough to matter.

Even if the attendance drops off; owners will simply lower ticket prices 10 to 15%, and everyone will come right back(StubHub is already under market value, it would be even cheaper).

Nether side is afraid of fans not showing up to games; if they had any fear, a deal would have been struck by now.

That is not fan's fault, it's simply the nature of Hockey being a niche sport.

My point is the PIE is not very big in the NHL, so both sides want as much as they can get.

I don't blame the players for trying to guarantee themselves a certain amount of money.

I also don't blame the owners for trying to turn a profit off a league, that doesn't exactly make a lot of profit.
If what you are saying is true, that there is indeed no casual hockey fans in the United States, why in the world did Gary Bettman decide to place franchises in non-traditional hockey markets? Why is there a team in Phoenix, and Nashville, and Florida, and Texas? Kind of flies in the face of logic now, doesn't it? When you have Bill Simmons calling you out in a long winded column about the damage Gary Bettman and this collective group of owners has done to the league over the past 10 years or so, I think there is a hint of truth to it.

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Old
11-22-2012, 02:24 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
Here's his response:



Ah, the old lie about his account being hacked. Now pray tell, who would even care to hack the account of an old-has-been retired hockey player?

I think old Jeff suffered one to many hard hits.
It's obvious sarcasm.

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Old
11-22-2012, 03:59 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron View Post
Here's his response:



Ah, the old lie about his account being hacked. Now pray tell, who would even care to hack the account of an old-has-been retired hockey player?

I think old Jeff suffered one to many hard hits.
Its sarcasm, and not very good sarcasm at that.



Roman Harmlik on the other hand, somebody who's on his third lockout, now here's somebody on the inside worth listening to:

Hamrlik expands on CBA remarks; Responds to Cole

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Old
11-22-2012, 04:52 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie Weeks View Post
Its sarcasm, and not very good sarcasm at that.



Roman Harmlik on the other hand, somebody who's on his third lockout, now here's somebody on the inside worth listening to:

Hamrlik expands on CBA remarks; Responds to Cole
My respect for Roman Hamrlik has gone up significantly. It's nice to hear That right there is a well-articulated argument. Would be nice to see some players starting to push Fehr to get a deal done.

There's no win for anyone in these negotiations. There's just trying to get a reasonable deal and start to move forward. Like the last time around. Worked tremendously for the players.

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Old
11-22-2012, 05:46 PM
  #148
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It's obvious sarcasm.
Actually, he felt he needed to be sarcastic twice.

So, not so obvious.

Anyway, he is a moron, no matter what he was trying to be.

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Old
11-22-2012, 06:40 PM
  #149
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The PA is not going to decertify. We are not at that point yet, and I am not sure if the Union would ever consider such a step.
Yeah, we are there.

Exasperated Ryan Miller heartily endorses decertification of union

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11-22-2012, 07:29 PM
  #150
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Actually, he felt he needed to be sarcastic twice.

So, not so obvious.

Anyway, he is a moron, no matter what he was trying to be.
The first time was him proving what kind of a person he was. The second time he made a joke about all the bad rep he's taken and pretty much telling us he doesn't care.

I piece of trash if you ask me. You know, the funny thing is that if he's never twittered that, I'd have no idea he was a shaft. Now I truely dislike him.

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