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A Bad Lawyer Can Drag A Case For Years, A Good Lawyer Even Longer (CBA/Lockout) XXVI

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:09 AM
  #301
isles31
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Originally Posted by whskybarJM View Post
the one group who holds the power will never teach the NHL/NHLPA a lesson.

the fans.
im not going to games for a long time, if ever, after this. I'll watch games if theyre on wherever i am at, but really, im disgusted with the league as a whole. No more jerseys, hats, shirts...i dont need that crap anyway. 2 Hanes sweatshirts for 20$ or an islanders sweatshirt for 65...yeah its about time i worried about my own wellbeing than that of a league who couldnt care less about us fans.

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11-12-2012, 09:12 AM
  #302
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im not going to games for a long time, if ever, after this. I'll watch games if theyre on wherever i am at, but really, im disgusted with the league as a whole. No more jerseys, hats, shirts...i dont need that crap anyway. 2 Hanes sweatshirts for 20$ or an islanders sweatshirt for 65...yeah its about time i worried about my own wellbeing than that of a league who couldnt care less about us fans.
Good on you! I'm not even going to watch the games. F that. This isn't about getting a fair deal, just like last time each side is out for themselves and trying just to "win" rather than trying to get what is fair. As Gordon Ramsay would say both parties have " lost the plot"

This isn't about getting what they think is fair, this is about losing the one thing that makes the NHL the league it is...the fans. I'm disgusted beyond words.

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11-12-2012, 09:12 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Twilight Sparkle View Post
Revenue sharing can help but it's not a solution.
Revenue sharing can help, but by itself won't cut it. I agree.

There are other possible solutions as well, as ottawah alluded to above: redesign how the cap range is defined. It could be argued that the league as a whole is not overspending on salary. What appears to be the issue is that small market teams need to reach deep into their pockets to get to the cap floor. Yes, reducing the players share will knock the floor down a peg or two because the floor is anchored to the midpoint. But what about leaving the midpoint where it is and allow teams to spend more than $8M or less than $8M away from the midpoint? What about getting rid of the floor and ceiling altogether, but still guaranteeing 57% through escrow? It could be argued that its not the % itself that's causing small market teams to operate in the red, it's the fact that they're obligated to spend to an arbitrarily defined floor to begin with all in the name of parity.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of parity. I like the NFL's model and wish the NHL had enough national revenue to follow a similar system. But I think it's unfair to point to the number 57 as the crux of the NHL's problems.

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11-12-2012, 09:15 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by whskybarJM View Post
the one group who holds the power will never teach the NHL/NHLPA a lesson.

the fans.
Meh, life is too short to be angry at the NHL and stick it too 'em.


I do feel bad for the bars, restaurants, and those who's livelihood depends on the NHL operating. The fans though? I know I will be back.


The only thing that would not make me come back is an MLB like strike that wiped out the SCF after games had been played. Luckily the NHL locked the players out before they could do that.

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11-12-2012, 09:15 AM
  #305
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So again, to stick to what's actually being reported instead the same derailing that's become epidemic here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/sp...-in-talks.html
The league and union are even closer to agreement on revenue sharing among clubs, with a plan described as basically done except for administrative details. The system will be significantly expanded compared with the N.H.L.’s current system, with more teams qualifying for revenue sharing and more money distributed.

The system will include a small fund, similar to baseball’s industry growth fund, that Bettman can specially earmark for the neediest franchises — presumably teams like Phoenix, the Islanders, Columbus and Florida.
I guess they liked the idea of the Industry Growth Fund.
But big obstacles remain on the issue of contract rights.
Under the collective bargaining agreement that expired Sept. 15, players whose contracts had expired were eligible for free agency if they were 27 or had seven years of N.H.L. service. The league is seeking to raise those thresholds to 28 and eight years of experience.
The league is also seeking to restrict players’ rights to go to salary arbitration, and to limit the term of contracts to five years. Under the previous system, there were no limits.

The union delegate characterized the league’s stance on player contract issues as “very draconian” and said, “We’re very, very far apart” in that area.

According to published reports, confirmed by those present at Friday’s bargaining session, Bettman told Fehr that no deal was possible unless the union agreed to all of the league’s proposed changes to player contract rights.

“The owners made it clear that there is no give with respect to any of their proposals,” Fehr told reporters after Sunday’s meeting. “That unless players are prepared to take — and this is my phrase, not theirs — down to the comma, that there’s nothing to do.”

....
The exchange was between the free-agent defenseman Chris Campoli and Winnipeg defenseman Ron Hainsey on one side, and the owners Murray Edwards of Calgary and Craig Leipold of Minnesota on the other
I'd love to hear what was said.
If they really down to contract rights as the main stumbling block this thing will get done. Every time they focus on a new area all the rhetoric comes out, things slow down and then they get back to bargaining. Over the next couple of Steve Fehr and Daly will explore the edges and soft areas (despite the rhetoric) and then get the bigger group back together. My call is there will be an agreement in place by next weekend, and hockey by Dec 1.

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:16 AM
  #306
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I thought there was a small chance that we would see a season played with last week's negotiations, but since those failed, I think the entire season will be cancelled. Players are just too dumb.

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11-12-2012, 09:16 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Meh, life is too short to be angry at the NHL and stick it too 'em.


I do feel bad for the bars, restaurants, and those who's livelihood depends on the NHL operating. The fans though? I know I will be back.


The only thing that would not make me come back is an MLB like strike that wiped out the SCF after games had been played. Luckily the NHL locked the players out before they could do that.
See and that's what allows the NHL to do what they do. Possibly losing 2 full seasons in a decade and you'd be back tomorrow..amazing.

Could you imagine the NFL doing what the NHL is doing lol. The president would probably get involved..but in hockey bettman and his cronies can do whatever they like

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:17 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I thought there was a small chance that we would see a season played with last week's negotiations, but since those failed, I think the entire season will be cancelled. Players are just too dumb.
Both sides share the blame in this cloud of ineptitude

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11-12-2012, 09:18 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
If they really down to contract rights as the main stumbling block this thing will get done. Every time they focus on a new area all the rhetoric comes out, things slow down and then they get back to bargaining. Over the next couple of Steve Fehr and Daly will explore the edges and soft areas (despite the rhetoric) and then get the bigger group back together. My call is there will be an agreement in place by next weekend, and hockey by Dec 1.
I can see that too, but I am really sick of all of this. God do I hate Bettman

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:18 AM
  #310
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See and that's what allows the NHL to do what they do. Possibly losing 2 full seasons in a decade and you'd be back tomorrow..amazing.
I enjoy hockey, I have over $3k invested in this season.

If they don't play.. I get +3% APR back.. how does this hurt me again?

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:20 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
I enjoy hockey, I have over $3k invested in this season.

If they don't play.. I get +3% APR back.. how does this hurt me again?
It doesn't, you take the hits from the league, you get something back and so you're not really affected. Definitely in the minority. I guess my comments aren't towards you because you're situation is a bit different from mine and many others. You could care less I guess if there is a season or not. You'll run back.

I wonder what you would do if the Patriots or whoever you cheer for was lost for 2 full years.

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11-12-2012, 09:21 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
If they really down to contract rights as the main stumbling block this thing will get done. Every time they focus on a new area all the rhetoric comes out, things slow down and then they get back to bargaining. Over the next couple of Steve Fehr and Daly will explore the edges and soft areas (despite the rhetoric) and then get the bigger group back together. My call is there will be an agreement in place by next weekend, and hockey by Dec 1.
I agree. If they really are close on the HRR and Make whole, I cannot see contracting rights de-railing the season.
5,7, or 8 years for UFA? That will really only decide which group of players get allocated the money, but the dollars will still get paid out by the owners. They have proven that time and time again.
The owners should push for the 5% rule that has been mentioned and having minor leaguers contracts in excess of a certain amount count against the cap. Done.
They can leave everything else the same, allow Fehr to save face, and still accomplish their objectives.

Of course I speak of the situation as if we are dealing with rational people.

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:24 AM
  #313
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In regards to the Blackhawks, people are forgetting that the cap penalty they took that year. That was the straw that broke the back.

When you add in Tallon's overpayments of RFAs coming off their ELC and then the QO debacle, the purge was easy to see.

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11-12-2012, 09:25 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
They don't need the restrictions.

If the players can ONLY get 50%, why does the league care how they divide it up between them?


What are their concerns, Freudian?

(I understand the the 5% variance.)
Same reason players sign the big time contracts offered to them. Because they can.
Player gets strong leverage and uses it against the signing team to get them to give them a crap ton of money.

Is it not so hard to understand the owners are using their leverage of being less impacted financially for the lockout to extract as much as they can from the players?

Why is it only fair one way and not the other?

I doubt they'll get it all but don't blame them for trying. Nobody blames Suter and Parise for those hefty contracts they signed. I don't blame Weber for trying to get his no trade clause included.... He didn't... didn't have any leverage.. what do you know eh?

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Old
11-12-2012, 09:28 AM
  #315
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/sp...=tw-share&_r=0

optimism

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11-12-2012, 09:33 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Revenue sharing can help, but by itself won't cut it. I agree.

There are other possible solutions as well, as ottawah alluded to above: redesign how the cap range is defined. It could be argued that the league as a whole is not overspending on salary. What appears to be the issue is that small market teams need to reach deep into their pockets to get to the cap floor. Yes, reducing the players share will knock the floor down a peg or two because the floor is anchored to the midpoint. But what about leaving the midpoint where it is and allow teams to spend more than $8M or less than $8M away from the midpoint? What about getting rid of the floor and ceiling altogether, but still guaranteeing 57% through escrow? It could be argued that its not the % itself that's causing small market teams to operate in the red, it's the fact that they're obligated to spend to an arbitrarily defined floor to begin with all in the name of parity.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of parity. I like the NFL's model and wish the NHL had enough national revenue to follow a similar system. But I think it's unfair to point to the number 57 as the crux of the NHL's problems.
Parity or not You're not going to find anyone that wants to own a losing franchise. Heck no one wants to buy a winning franchise.

This game just doesn't have enough interest where the prestige of owning a franchise alone makes it worth buying.

Drop Pheonix's cap 20 million and see what happens when the team starts to do when it really starts sucking.

Not even fans in Canada will show up to watch a team that has no hope of winning. See Edmonton before the last lockout..... Calgary before their run in 03.

This isn't Baseball or Football where the game itself sells.

Drop the cap floor and you'll end up watching the bottom half of league die a slow and nasty death over the next 10-15 years.

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11-12-2012, 09:37 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Lacaar View Post
Parity or not You're not going to find anyone that wants to own a losing franchise. Heck no one wants to buy a winning franchise.

This game just doesn't have enough interest where the prestige of owning a franchise alone makes it worth buying.

Drop Pheonix's cap 20 million and see what happens when the team starts to do when it really starts sucking.

Not even fans in Canada will show up to watch a team that has no hope of winning. See Edmonton before the last lockout..... Calgary before their run in 03.

This isn't Baseball or Football where the game itself sells.

Drop the cap floor and you'll end up watching the bottom half of league die a slow and nasty death over the next 10-15 years.
Then you just end up being MLB, where the smaller market teams end up being nothing more than farm teams for the likes of the Rangers and Toronto.

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11-12-2012, 09:41 AM
  #318
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I agree. If they really are close on the HRR and Make whole, I cannot see contracting rights de-railing the season.
5,7, or 8 years for UFA? That will really only decide which group of players get allocated the money, but the dollars will still get paid out by the owners. They have proven that time and time again.
The owners should push for the 5% rule that has been mentioned and having minor leaguers contracts in excess of a certain amount count against the cap. Done.
They can leave everything else the same, allow Fehr to save face, and still accomplish their objectives.

Of course I speak of the situation as if we are dealing with rational people.
I think the one area where owners will stand firm is widing the gap between ELC and UFA. As it is now the owners find themselves giving out big long term contracts to guys comming off ELC before they are sure the player is actually worth it. If they shorten ELC to 2 years and push UFA out by a year. Now you have a 6 year gap instead of 4. So you can then sign the same player you were giving a 6 year contract at $ 5+ M to half that over a 3 or 4 year contract before having to give out the big money to someone you now know is really worth it. Paying players on potential rather than actual performance is inflationary and both sides know it.

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11-12-2012, 09:46 AM
  #319
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Its because we have no public voice. The only way to protest would be to not go to the games or give up my season tickets. but if I did that, there would be 30 guys in Montreal fighting to take my seats.
You make a very good point. You can't protest in "waiting list" markets because another fan takes your place, but in other markets where hockey is not part of the social fabric, those teams will be hurt by the lock out the most. And those are the teams that can afford it the least.

A poster floated the idea of going to the game, but having every fan turn their back towards the game for the first period. Throw a tomato at Bettman or something. You can keep your tickets and still protest. It won't be as effective as not giving the NHL your money but there is always something that you can do.

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11-12-2012, 09:48 AM
  #320
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Then you just end up being MLB, where the smaller market teams end up being nothing more than farm teams for the likes of the Rangers and Toronto.
so true, except i thought you were using the analogy for the Texas Rangers and Toronto Blue Jays for a minute haha. I was gonna say you were so dead on, until your examples.

You will have the teams make a run with kids just before UFA...like Oakland ends up doing in MLB. Then theyll trade those star players for 5 prospects and in a few yrs, itll happen again. However, Oakland has a smart GM who gets it done.

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11-12-2012, 09:49 AM
  #321
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11-12-2012, 09:52 AM
  #322
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so true, except i thought you were using the analogy for the Texas Rangers and Toronto Blue Jays for a minute haha. I was gonna say you were so dead on, until your examples.

You will have the teams make a run with kids just before UFA...like Oakland ends up doing in MLB. Then theyll trade those star players for 5 prospects and in a few yrs, itll happen again. However, Oakland has a smart GM who gets it done.
the jays also have a good GM, he just trades all the top prospects for crappy prospects and just lets his top flight talent walk via free agency.

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11-12-2012, 09:52 AM
  #323
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It doesn't, you take the hits from the league, you get something back and so you're not really affected. Definitely in the minority. I guess my comments aren't towards you because you're situation is a bit different from mine and many others. You could care less I guess if there is a season or not. You'll run back.

I wonder what you would do if the Patriots or whoever you cheer for was lost for 2 full years.
I don't understand what the 'fans' are so mad about. Like the other poster said, I would be much more angry if I got invested in the season, and then the rug was pulled out from under it before the playoffs. The league isn't taking my money and not playing games, it's not costing me anything that there's a lockout. I don't feel disrespected, maybe it's because we came so close to losing the pens, and the last CBA was a big reason they were able to stay. I definitely don't want to see the Pens turn into the Pirates, if it means losing another season then so be it.

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11-12-2012, 09:54 AM
  #324
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Parity or not You're not going to find anyone that wants to own a losing franchise. Heck no one wants to buy a winning franchise.

This game just doesn't have enough interest where the prestige of owning a franchise alone makes it worth buying.

Drop Pheonix's cap 20 million and see what happens when the team starts to do when it really starts sucking.

Not even fans in Canada will show up to watch a team that has no hope of winning. See Edmonton before the last lockout..... Calgary before their run in 03.

This isn't Baseball or Football where the game itself sells.

Drop the cap floor and you'll end up watching the bottom half of league die a slow and nasty death over the next 10-15 years.
As an Oiler fan I can confirm. Before the lockout I'd watch the odd Oilers game here or there and wouldn't watch any other game. The passion for the game was gone, at least for me it was. I was tired of losing all our best players only because of money. I was tired of cheering for a team that had no hope of competing. Fast forward to after the lockout and I haven't watched more hockey in my life. I'll watch any game that's on TV if I have the time. I go to sold-out games at Rexall to cheer on exciting last place hockey! Hope sells. If the NHL goes MLB I'm out and I suspect I wouldn't be the only one.

P.S. Baseball only sells because it is 'merica's past time or it was once upon a time. Everything I've read about who is watching baseball indicates that it's a older demographic and getting older. Very troublesome if your the MLB and laugh at me if you want but I could see MLS passing MLB in popularity in America someday.

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11-12-2012, 09:57 AM
  #325
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Those contracts after the ELC are killing the league IMO. Baseball is not really analogous to the NHL with a lowered cap floor because what kills baseball is no cap ceiling.

The problem in the NHL is that there is no way to compete on a limited budget because it's almost a bad thing to end up with 4 or 5 studs from a couple drafts because they all will make 5-7M a year in like 2 seasons.

The NHL has to find a way to allow teams to build through the draft like Tampa or Oakland in baseball.

How is Taylor Hall getting 7M a year? The NHL is actually the opposite of the MLB in that regard. I feel like saying Evan Longoria is making less than Taylor Hall and he's an established vet.

The NHL should be able to lower the cap floor by say 5-10M and tweak the ELC contracts so teams can keep their players at reasonable rates. Then add revenue sharing. Then add 50/50.

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