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Old
11-13-2012, 10:02 PM
  #401
DougGilmour93
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Originally Posted by FAMOUSfin View Post
MacArthur
Franson/Holzer
Kadri/Colborne/1st

for

Luongo

Keep Lombardi/Connolly for your own checking line.
I'd be ok with that (as long as the 1st was from 2014).

I'd prefer to deal the following from that offer...

Mac
Holzer
Kadri

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11-13-2012, 10:03 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post


I'm not sure if I could give up on Finn just yet as we just drafted him and it's looking like he's the steal of the draft. That kinda crap never happens to us, so I'm inclined to hold onto him.

Hey fair enough we are both on the edge about this trade. I just can't wait till there is a trade and we can all laugh and see who was the closest. Nice to see some positivity in this thread.


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Old
11-13-2012, 10:05 PM
  #403
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Hey fair enough we are both on the edge about this trade. I just can't wait till there is a trade and we can all laugh and see who was the closest. Nice to see some positivity in this thread.

I concur.
Nice doing fake business with you.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:06 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Ok...here we go, a few proposals (the 1st will be 2013 playoff protected as per your suggestion).

1. Lupul 1st an 4th for Luongo

2. Kuli, Kadri 1st

3.Kadri, Colborne 1st

4.Kuli, Connolly 1st.

Now..it seems some want Raymond gone, we could add something else if that were to happen.
The first two are good, third is purely future which I doubt Gillis would be interested in, and the last one is significantly less valuable than the other three.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:24 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Not looking to argue...while i guess i can't say the Leafs "need" to trade for Luongo specifically, the Leafs NEED to upgrade in goal. To say we don't need to trade core pieces...ok...but looking past the fact that it's the Canucks and using just Luongo's carreer stats...would you not consider him s core piece?
What the Leafs need to do is put themselves in a position to win a Stanley Cup. Upgrading the goaltending of course, will put us closer to that... but it has to come at a cost that makes sense. The Leafs aren't cup contenders, they're not even close, so any deal they make has to be done in the context of a long term outlook.

Based solely off his career stats, all but two suggests he's capable of being a core piece for the Leafs -- 727 and 12 -- the number of games played, and number of seasons, also related to his age -- 33. In trying to build a cup winner, the Leafs have to look at the options that give them the best possible team in a couple of years, with a secondary emphasis on winning now. If you trade for Luongo, it blocks James Reimer's development.

Of course, Luongo is a better goalie and if given the option today, from a simple performance standpoint, you probably take a 36 year old Luongo over a 26 year old James Reimer... however, that doesn't hold true when you start talking about giving up guys like Kulemin, Gardiner, JvR, Bozak, etc. These are young, highly important players, with a ton of upside in growing with the team.

I'm not sure what the fact that he's presently a Vancouver Canuck has anything to do with it. If Luongo can't be acquired without parting with core players, the Leafs will just have to look elsewhere for a tandem goalie to play with James Reimer.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:25 PM
  #406
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So we give up Luongo for cap, to do Toronto a favor? OK.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:32 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What the Leafs need to do is put themselves in a position to win a Stanley Cup. Upgrading the goaltending of course, will put us closer to that... but it has to come at a cost that makes sense. The Leafs aren't cup contenders, they're not even close, so any deal they make has to be done in the context of a long term outlook.

Based solely off his career stats, all but two suggests he's capable of being a core piece for the Leafs -- 727 and 12 -- the number of games played, and number of seasons, also related to his age -- 33. In trying to build a cup winner, the Leafs have to look at the options that give them the best possible team in a couple of years, with a secondary emphasis on winning now. If you trade for Luongo, it blocks James Reimer's development.

Of course, Luongo is a better goalie and if given the option today, from a simple performance standpoint, you probably take a 36 year old Luongo over a 26 year old James Reimer... however, that doesn't hold true when you start talking about giving up guys like Kulemin, Gardiner, JvR, Bozak, etc. These are young, highly important players, with a ton of upside in growing with the team.

I'm not sure what the fact that he's presently a Vancouver Canuck has anything to do with it. If Luongo can't be acquired without parting with core players, the Leafs will just have to look elsewhere for a tandem goalie to play with James Reimer.
What about Lupul? Upcoming UFA, doesn't really fit in with the age of your core. If he wants to walk to play for a contender, Burke would be wise to sell high on him.

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:54 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What the Leafs need to do is put themselves in a position to win a Stanley Cup. Upgrading the goaltending of course, will put us closer to that... but it has to come at a cost that makes sense. The Leafs aren't cup contenders, they're not even close, so any deal they make has to be done in the context of a long term outlook.

Based solely off his career stats, all but two suggests he's capable of being a core piece for the Leafs -- 727 and 12 -- the number of games played, and number of seasons, also related to his age -- 33. In trying to build a cup winner, the Leafs have to look at the options that give them the best possible team in a couple of years, with a secondary emphasis on winning now. If you trade for Luongo, it blocks James Reimer's development.

Of course, Luongo is a better goalie and if given the option today, from a simple performance standpoint, you probably take a 36 year old Luongo over a 26 year old James Reimer... however, that doesn't hold true when you start talking about giving up guys like Kulemin, Gardiner, JvR, Bozak, etc. These are young, highly important players, with a ton of upside in growing with the team.

I'm not sure what the fact that he's presently a Vancouver Canuck has anything to do with it. If Luongo can't be acquired without parting with core players, the Leafs will just have to look elsewhere for a tandem goalie to play with James Reimer.
You do realize that having a quality goalie who can win you games helps the development of young players right? It's tough to develop winners when they spend their formative NHL years as perennial losers. Also, Reimer sucks. He's arguably the worst starting goalie in the league (up there with Bob, Lindback and Crawford).

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:08 PM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Based solely off his career stats, all but two suggests he's capable of being a core piece for the Leafs -- 727 and 12 -- the number of games played, and number of seasons, also related to his age -- 33. In trying to build a cup winner, the Leafs have to look at the options that give them the best possible team in a couple of years, with a secondary emphasis on winning now. If you trade for Luongo, it blocks James Reimer's development.
Just like Schneider's development was blocked? He's 26 now, and fully capable of being the starter after playing behind Luongo.

Reimer is only 24, he would greatly benefit from playing sheltered minutes and practicing with a guy like Luongo. When he is 26, Luongo will be 35 and possibly ready to take on a smaller load, and shifts into a leadership-backup role until he retires. Also for all we know Reimer will not even be in the league at this point.

There are reasons why acquiring Luongo is a mistake, but blocking Reimer's potential development is hardly one of them.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:50 PM
  #410
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How about this:

To Toronto:
Luongo
Raymond

To Vancouver:
Kulemin
Connolly
Blacker
Colbourne
3rd

Or

To Toronto:
Luongo
Sauve
2014 4th

To Vancouver:
Lupul
Connolly
Kadri
Percy
1st in 2014

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:00 AM
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
How about this:

To Toronto:
Luongo
Raymond

To Vancouver:
Kulemin
Connolly
Blacker
Colbourne
3rd

Or

To Toronto:
Luongo
Sauve
2014 4th

To Vancouver:
Lupul
Connolly
Kadri
Percy
1st in 2014
Too many pieces to be realistic, imo. Lupul, Connolly, conditional 1st on playoffs, or Kadri, Kulemin, conditional 1st on playoffs(both 2013) are deals I would be okay with, and seem to me more realistic.

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11-14-2012, 12:10 AM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Too many pieces to be realistic, imo. Lupul, Connolly, conditional 1st on playoffs, or Kadri, Kulemin, conditional 1st on playoffs(both 2013) are deals I would be okay with, and seem to me more realistic.
Kadri, Kulemin and a cond. 1st is a decent return, add Blacker and I'll forge GMMG's signature myself (not literally)

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Old
11-14-2012, 02:56 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
Kadri, Kulemin and a cond. 1st is a decent return, add Blacker and I'll forge GMMG's signature myself (not literally)


What's worth more? Kadri, Kulemin, top10 conditional 1st and Blacker or Colborne, 1st, Frattin and Percy?


I would say it's the first package because I like Kadri + Kulemin more than I do Colborne and Frattin. Kulemin is currently the best player.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:04 AM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
Kadri, Kulemin and a cond. 1st is a decent return, add Blacker and I'll forge GMMG's signature myself (not literally)
Yeah it's a decent return for you guys, it's an awful proposal for the Leafs.

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Old
11-14-2012, 05:22 AM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Yeah it's a decent return for you guys, it's an awful proposal for the Leafs.


Curious MBP, what bothers you the most about that deal? I'm guessing Kulemin? Or perhaps top prospect Kadri?

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11-14-2012, 06:14 AM
  #416
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The first two are good, third is purely future which I doubt Gillis would be interested in, and the last one is significantly less valuable than the other three.
Fair enough. Offer 4 is off the table, i will work on tweeks on the first 2.

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11-14-2012, 06:16 AM
  #417
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What the Leafs need to do is put themselves in a position to win a Stanley Cup. Upgrading the goaltending of course, will put us closer to that... but it has to come at a cost that makes sense. The Leafs aren't cup contenders, they're not even close, so any deal they make has to be done in the context of a long term outlook.

Based solely off his career stats, all but two suggests he's capable of being a core piece for the Leafs -- 727 and 12 -- the number of games played, and number of seasons, also related to his age -- 33. In trying to build a cup winner, the Leafs have to look at the options that give them the best possible team in a couple of years, with a secondary emphasis on winning now. If you trade for Luongo, it blocks James Reimer's development.

Of course, Luongo is a better goalie and if given the option today, from a simple performance standpoint, you probably take a 36 year old Luongo over a 26 year old James Reimer... however, that doesn't hold true when you start talking about giving up guys like Kulemin, Gardiner, JvR, Bozak, etc. These are young, highly important players, with a ton of upside in growing with the team.

I'm not sure what the fact that he's presently a Vancouver Canuck has anything to do with it. If Luongo can't be acquired without parting with core players, the Leafs will just have to look elsewhere for a tandem goalie to play with James Reimer.
Well, i guess if you think Kuli or Bozak are more important than a starter...i give up. Just one question, don't you think maybe even one playoff series might be good for development?

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11-14-2012, 06:21 AM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well, i guess if you think Kuli or Bozak are more important than a starter...i give up. Just one question, don't you think maybe even one playoff series might be good for development?


I too don't understand this line of reasoning. For what it's worth, it's essentially saying a more middling NHLer (Bozak) and top6/top9 'tweener (Kulemin) are more important than a starting goaltender (leaving adjectives like elite/really good out).


It does not follow.

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11-14-2012, 06:44 AM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What about Lupul? Upcoming UFA, doesn't really fit in with the age of your core. If he wants to walk to play for a contender, Burke would be wise to sell high on him.
Not gonna happen. Had too good of a year relative to his standards to even consider trading him. He may not be part of the core, but rewarding guys like Lupul with a new contract is how you build a winning culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
You do realize that having a quality goalie who can win you games helps the development of young players right? It's tough to develop winners when they spend their formative NHL years as perennial losers. Also, Reimer sucks. He's arguably the worst starting goalie in the league (up there with Bob, Lindback and Crawford).
Absolutely, just like giving young players (and goaltenders) the opportunity to play can help their development as well.

If Reimer sucks, that really doesn't say a lot about the guy Vancouver fans want to make their starter. The two have quite similar numbers considering the quality of games Schneider has seen so far. 71gp, 2.83 and a .911 sv% versus 68gp, 2.24 and .928 sv% aren't really that different when you consider that the former has played all of his games in a #1 / tandem role on one of the worst teams in the league, and the latter has played all of his games in a backup role on one of the best teams in the league. Edge to Schneider? sure, potentially giving Luongo more value to the Leafs than Canucks given the same present/future weighting, but they're quite similar goaltenders in terms of reasonable expectations.

To develop young players you facilitate their success by surrounding them with talent. To develop Reimer, they've gotta get a quality, veteran, tandem goaltender who the Leafs aren't forced to play because he's got a big long term deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
Just like Schneider's development was blocked? He's 26 now, and fully capable of being the starter after playing behind Luongo.

Reimer is only 24, he would greatly benefit from playing sheltered minutes and practicing with a guy like Luongo. When he is 26, Luongo will be 35 and possibly ready to take on a smaller load, and shifts into a leadership-backup role until he retires. Also for all we know Reimer will not even be in the league at this point.

There are reasons why acquiring Luongo is a mistake, but blocking Reimer's potential development is hardly one of them.
Schneider's development was / is blocked right now. Calling him fully capable of being the starter is ludicrous, he's had sheltered games his entire career, leading to his great numbers. However, he's totally unproven in the context of being a #1 goalie.

Reimer would benefit from a guy like Nicklas Backstrom, or Jose Theodore -- a veteran who's history and contract doesn't require him to be the undisputed #1. Luongo's contract does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Well, i guess if you think Kuli or Bozak are more important than a starter...i give up. Just one question, don't you think maybe even one playoff series might be good for development?
If the Leafs were cup contenders, then you might have a point, we're not. We've gotta be building with a long term outlook, and that means keeping players in their mid 20s who play substantial roles on our team.


Last edited by seanlinden: 11-14-2012 at 06:54 AM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 07:17 AM
  #420
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Curious MBP, what bothers you the most about that deal? I'm guessing Kulemin? Or perhaps top prospect Kadri?
Kulemin. This is the absolute worst time to deal the guy, his stock is at an all-time low. Not that I want him dealt at all anyways, he's certainly under-rated around here and the whole 7 goal argument is plain silly, Leafs fans know this guy can be your MVP on any given night. Kadri, I can handle dealing him. I like Nazem but at this point, with our depth on the wings, we can afford to deal him.

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11-14-2012, 07:41 AM
  #421
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Kulemin. This is the absolute worst time to deal the guy, his stock is at an all-time low. Not that I want him dealt at all anyways, he's certainly under-rated around here and the whole 7 goal argument is plain silly, Leafs fans know this guy can be your MVP on any given night. Kadri, I can handle dealing him. I like Nazem but at this point, with our depth on the wings, we can afford to deal him.
Not to offend you or seanlinden, but it seems it is absolute worst time to trade any players with any sort of value. The excuse is either you need to rebuild more for the future or the players value is at all time low. But consider that you are trading a for a very good starting goalie, should this not excite you? I mean come on you are asking for a player who will become the best on your team, but at the same time are sweating about players who are 2nd/3rd line players. It just does not make sense unless you believe that your team is entitled to trade to get players for nothing. I know the franson deal worked out like this, but it just is not reasonable to carry these expectations over to the next.

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11-14-2012, 08:00 AM
  #422
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Lupul
1st (Top-10 protected)
Franson

for

Luongo
Raymond

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Old
11-14-2012, 08:12 AM
  #423
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Not to offend you or seanlinden, but it seems it is absolute worst time to trade any players with any sort of value. The excuse is either you need to rebuild more for the future or the players value is at all time low. But consider that you are trading a for a very good starting goalie, should this not excite you? I mean come on you are asking for a player who will become the best on your team, but at the same time are sweating about players who are 2nd/3rd line players. It just does not make sense unless you believe that your team is entitled to trade to get players for nothing. I know the franson deal worked out like this, but it just is not reasonable to carry these expectations over to the next.
I do know one thing here, Luongo doesn't guarantee the playoffs. He has limited amount of years left in his prime, 2-3 years is reasonable, yes? To sacrifice a core top 6 forward for a goalie with a contract we hate is a tough pill to swallow. As long as Canucks fans try and downplay the contract, we'll downplay the value and pimp our players. That's the way she goes. The reason I'm not excited at the prospect of Luongo coming here isn't even performance, it's that I firmly believe it's a saturated goalie market. I cannot give a list of every goalie available because I honestly don't know who is(who does?) but I think there's more than enough goalies to go around at a reasonable cost who will perform to a similar level of Luongo who I believe is a slightly above average netminder. And I don't need to be reminded of his accolades and statistics, I believe what I believe. When proposals begin including first round picks,several prospects,top 6 forwards...Luongo isn't the only goalie available and that's a guarantee. There is always the option that nobody seems to think about in that, maybe there's a better,younger goalie out there? the Leafs trade possibilities don't start and end with the Canucks where as it seems this isn't the case the other way around no matter how it's spun. My two cents.

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11-14-2012, 08:26 AM
  #424
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I do know one thing here, Luongo doesn't guarantee the playoffs. He has limited amount of years left in his prime, 2-3 years is reasonable, yes? To sacrifice a core top 6 forward for a goalie with a contract we hate is a tough pill to swallow. As long as Canucks fans try and downplay the contract, we'll downplay the value and pimp our players. That's the way she goes. The reason I'm not excited at the prospect of Luongo coming here isn't even performance, it's that I firmly believe it's a saturated goalie market. I cannot give a list of every goalie available because I honestly don't know who is(who does?) but I think there's more than enough goalies to go around at a reasonable cost who will perform to a similar level of Luongo who I believe is a slightly above average netminder. And I don't need to be reminded of his accolades and statistics, I believe what I believe. When proposals begin including first round picks,several prospects,top 6 forwards...Luongo isn't the only goalie available and that's a guarantee. There is always the option that nobody seems to think about in that, maybe there's a better,younger goalie out there? the Leafs trade possibilities don't start and end with the Canucks where as it seems this isn't the case the other way around no matter how it's spun. My two cents.
The starting goalie market is saturated, but you do not know who is available. How can you suggest this if you do not even know who is available? I made a list goalies available in free agency next year a while back, and realized there wasn't that much, and no one nearly on a similar level. But hey you believe what you believe right?

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Old
11-14-2012, 09:34 AM
  #425
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Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Lupul
1st (Top-10 protected)
Franson

for

Luongo
Raymond
Listen...we've talked about this!!

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