HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

The All Purpose Lu Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-14-2012, 09:37 AM
  #426
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
I do know one thing here, Luongo doesn't guarantee the playoffs. He has limited amount of years left in his prime, 2-3 years is reasonable, yes? To sacrifice a core top 6 forward for a goalie with a contract we hate is a tough pill to swallow. As long as Canucks fans try and downplay the contract, we'll downplay the value and pimp our players. That's the way she goes. The reason I'm not excited at the prospect of Luongo coming here isn't even performance, it's that I firmly believe it's a saturated goalie market. I cannot give a list of every goalie available because I honestly don't know who is(who does?) but I think there's more than enough goalies to go around at a reasonable cost who will perform to a similar level of Luongo who I believe is a slightly above average netminder. And I don't need to be reminded of his accolades and statistics, I believe what I believe. When proposals begin including first round picks,several prospects,top 6 forwards...Luongo isn't the only goalie available and that's a guarantee. There is always the option that nobody seems to think about in that, maybe there's a better,younger goalie out there? the Leafs trade possibilities don't start and end with the Canucks where as it seems this isn't the case the other way around no matter how it's spun. My two cents.
I've gotta ask...

1.Name the goalies you think MAY be available (that play similarly to Luongo) at a "reasonable" price.

2.Name another team willing to deal a Bonified starter.

As far as Luongo "guranteeing" a playoff spot, while there are no gurantees, last season he had a .919%, the season before he posted .928%...he has NEVER posted lower than .913% (and that year he won 40 games).

Our keepers last season couldn't top .900%....so, if Luongo is here last year, we would be in. Now before you go into your "Vancouver is a way better team" speech, the Canucks gave up 3 more shots overall last season than we did, so it isn't like he had a free ride.


Last edited by Liferleafer: 11-14-2012 at 09:47 AM.
Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:49 AM
  #427
doorman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Thunder Bay
Country: Canada
Posts: 414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I've gotta ask...

1.Name the goalies you think MAY be available (that play similarly to Luongo) at a "reasonable price.

2.Name another team willing to deal a Bonified starter.
I think a few teams that come to mind right away, and i am only sure of one. Minnie could be looking to deal Backstrom, they just handed out 200mil and could be looking to save a few bucks. Plus Harding has just resigned at a friendly deal to the Wild. The other if they s**t the bed coming out of the gate is the Flames. Kipper maybe avail. and he is easily a comparable goalie. One dark horse and I am gonna get jumped on for this is Cam WArd, the canes owner is notoriously cheap and has big bucks tied up uin the Staals, Skinner and now Semin. They have a few big contracts on the back end as well, Plus faulk will soon be due a raise. The last and cheapest option is Thomas, he may sign short term and if he is in a decent frame of mind could be a good mentor.

doorman is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:51 AM
  #428
doorman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Thunder Bay
Country: Canada
Posts: 414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I've gotta ask...

1.Name the goalies you think MAY be available (that play similarly to Luongo) at a "reasonable" price.

2.Name another team willing to deal a Bonified starter.

As far as Luongo "guranteeing" a playoff spot, while there are no gurantees, last season he had a .919%, the season before he posted .928%...he has NEVER posted lower than .913% (and that year he won 40 games).

Our keepers last season couldn't top .900%....so, if Luongo is here last year, we would be in. Now before you go into your "Vancouver is a way better team" speech, the Canucks gave up 3 more shots overall last season than we did, so it isn't like he had a free ride.
To your last paragraph, is it fair to say the Leafs probably gave up more quality chances? I think this could be a fair statement. I will admit i don't watch the Nucks a lot, but maybe fans couyld give some insight

doorman is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:58 AM
  #429
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
I think a few teams that come to mind right away, and i am only sure of one. Minnie could be looking to deal Backstrom, they just handed out 200mil and could be looking to save a few bucks. Plus Harding has just resigned at a friendly deal to the Wild. The other if they s**t the bed coming out of the gate is the Flames. Kipper maybe avail. and he is easily a comparable goalie. One dark horse and I am gonna get jumped on for this is Cam WArd, the canes owner is notoriously cheap and has big bucks tied up uin the Staals, Skinner and now Semin. They have a few big contracts on the back end as well, Plus faulk will soon be due a raise. The last and cheapest option is Thomas, he may sign short term and if he is in a decent frame of mind could be a good mentor.
Ok, so a few more questions and comments. If you are worried that Luongo is to regress in 2-3 years (36-38 years old), how is Kipper a good option as he is now 36?

Backstrom is 34.....his BEST year is .919%....Luongo had that last year, he makes 6.mil with a 6mil cap hit. Do you honestly think he's gonna take a big pay cut? He will want the same money on a 5 year deal which puts you the same as Luongo's out years.

Cam Ward won't be moved, you don't load up like the Canes did and move your starter.

Tim Thomas is a nutjob. There is also his age.....

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:59 AM
  #430
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
To your last paragraph, is it fair to say the Leafs probably gave up more quality chances? I think this could be a fair statement. I will admit i don't watch the Nucks a lot, but maybe fans couyld give some insight
It's hard to gauge this, but i would probably say you are accurate. That doesn't mean Luongo faced shots from center ice, Hell, it might go to show that he didn't cough up second chances.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:05 AM
  #431
WonderTwinsUnite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North Delta, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,600
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Listen...we've talked about this!!
It's really just a matter of contract slots. I guess it could be Pinizzotto or Volpatti or Joslin...someone of that calibre.

WonderTwinsUnite is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:06 AM
  #432
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
It's really just a matter of contract slots. I guess it could be Pinizzotto or Volpatti or Joslin...someone of that calibre.
Meh, give us Raymond i guess.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:15 AM
  #433
doorman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Thunder Bay
Country: Canada
Posts: 414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Ok, so a few more questions and comments. If you are worried that Luongo is to regress in 2-3 years (36-38 years old), how is Kipper a good option as he is now 36?

Backstrom is 34.....his BEST year is .919%....Luongo had that last year, he makes 6.mil with a 6mil cap hit. Do you honestly think he's gonna take a big pay cut? He will want the same money on a 5 year deal which puts you the same as Luongo's out years.

Cam Ward won't be moved, you don't load up like the Canes did and move your starter.

Tim Thomas is a nutjob. There is also his age.....
I have no problems with Lou at the right price as I have said before. I think Kipper would be cheaper. I said Ward could be a dark horse, and if they don't play well, who knows? Backstrom would be way cheaper as well. And I never said I wanted Thomas just that he was out there for nothing, lol. The thing is I am just putting some of the names I think out there. I guess it depends are you looking for a short term or long term guy. If Reimer has the stuff, and I think it is realistic he could. he at least has the right mentality. I would have a problem with none of those guys, well not crazy about cookoo for coco puffs but just showing options.....lol.

Forgot to add I am not worried about regression the age is fine, I wouldn't haver listed Kipper otherwise. Just saying if Reimer is what they think he is a cheaper short term mentor is another option. but if we were gonna say sell the farm, well why not explore even unlikely scenerios like Ward?


Last edited by doorman: 11-14-2012 at 10:20 AM. Reason: forgot sumfin
doorman is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:15 AM
  #434
WonderTwinsUnite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North Delta, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,600
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Meh, give us Raymond i guess.
Perfect.

I don't see space on the Canucks if Lupul comes back. He's not a great 4th liner.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Lupul
Higgins - Lappiere - Hansen
Volpatti/Pinizzotto - Malhotra - Weise

Plus his going gives more capspace to get a backup and possibly another forward (a free agent).


Last edited by WonderTwinsUnite: 11-14-2012 at 10:45 AM.
WonderTwinsUnite is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:32 AM
  #435
racerjoe
Registered User
 
racerjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 2,107
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Not gonna happen. Had too good of a year relative to his standards to even consider trading him. He may not be part of the core, but rewarding guys like Lupul with a new contract is how you build a winning culture.



Absolutely, just like giving young players (and goaltenders) the opportunity to play can help their development as well.

If Reimer sucks, that really doesn't say a lot about the guy Vancouver fans want to make their starter. The two have quite similar numbers considering the quality of games Schneider has seen so far. 71gp, 2.83 and a .911 sv% versus 68gp, 2.24 and .928 sv% aren't really that different when you consider that the former has played all of his games in a #1 / tandem role on one of the worst teams in the league, and the latter has played all of his games in a backup role on one of the best teams in the league. Edge to Schneider? sure, potentially giving Luongo more value to the Leafs than Canucks given the same present/future weighting, but they're quite similar goaltenders in terms of reasonable expectations.

To develop young players you facilitate their success by surrounding them with talent. To develop Reimer, they've gotta get a quality, veteran, tandem goaltender who the Leafs aren't forced to play because he's got a big long term deal.



Schneider's development was / is blocked right now. Calling him fully capable of being the starter is ludicrous, he's had sheltered games his entire career, leading to his great numbers. However, he's totally unproven in the context of being a #1 goalie.

Reimer would benefit from a guy like Nicklas Backstrom, or Jose Theodore -- a veteran who's history and contract doesn't require him to be the undisputed #1. Luongo's contract does.



If the Leafs were cup contenders, then you might have a point, we're not. We've gotta be building with a long term outlook, and that means keeping players in their mid 20s who play substantial roles on our team.
Umm those numbers are not even close. Also Shnieds played in a fair amount of big games for us last season, it was actually by design to test him for the pressure of the playoffs.

racerjoe is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:33 AM
  #436
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Perfect.

I don't see space on the Canucks if Lupul comes back. He's not a great 4th liner.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Lupul
Higgins - Lappiere - Hansen
Volpatti/Pinizzotto - Malhotra - Weise

Plus his going gives more capspace to get a backup or another forward ( a free agent).
That is why i have an issue, even if Lupul goes, that leaves JVR,Kessel,Kuli,Mac as our top 6, i would put Raymond on our 2nd line over Mac i guess.

Actually, just looking at his contract....only this year left at 2.275....no worries.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:50 AM
  #437
WonderTwinsUnite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North Delta, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,600
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
That is why i have an issue, even if Lupul goes, that leaves JVR,Kessel,Kuli,Mac as our top 6, i would put Raymond on our 2nd line over Mac i guess.

Actually, just looking at his contract....only this year left at 2.275....no worries.
Raymond would be best suited with a playmaker who can spring him for breakaways or odd man rushes. Do Bozak or Grabovski fit this description?

WonderTwinsUnite is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 10:59 AM
  #438
kthsn
Registered User
 
kthsn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,728
vCash: 500
Kipper - based on the Flames off-season acquisitions they are pushing for a playoff spot. Kipper is their MVP. *IF* he is traded I expect it at the deadline for a very high price. Top prospect + 1st

Backstrom - Inferior to Luongo is almost all respects. I doubt the Wild trade their #1 after signing 2 of the biggest free agents. If Harding does play well I expect a 1A/1B situation until the trade deadline.

Thomas - I thought he was taking the year off? He's still a much better backup than Khudobin and in a shortened season he's worth more as insurance than a late pick to a contender like Boston.

Ward - I don't see him being moved, if Carolina wanted to shed salary dealing Semin at the deadline would make so much more sense. If for whatever reason Peters became the #1 () Ward would fetch a lot.

For every complaint against Luongo (age, contract, playoff record) Ward is the opposite. Rielly or Gardiner as the base of a package and keep adding IMO.

kthsn is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 11:00 AM
  #439
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Raymond would be best suited with a playmaker who can spring him for breakaways or odd man rushes. Do Bozak or Grabovski fit this description?
Bozak would be more of a passer than Grabo, but i don't see Raymond on our 1st line.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 11:06 AM
  #440
WonderTwinsUnite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North Delta, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,600
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Bozak would be more of a passer than Grabo, but i don't see Raymond on our 1st line.
Bozak centers the top line? I thought it was Grabovski.

WonderTwinsUnite is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 11:09 AM
  #441
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Bozak centers the top line? I thought it was Grabovski.
Nope. While Grabo is technically our best center, Bozak works better between Kessel and Lupul.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 11:23 AM
  #442
WonderTwinsUnite
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: North Delta, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,600
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Nope. While Grabo is technically our best center, Bozak works better between Kessel and Lupul.
Well, if Lupul goes...

WonderTwinsUnite is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 11:25 AM
  #443
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderTwinsUnite View Post
Well, if Lupul goes...
JVR would take Lupul's spot....unless he actually does well at center.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
  #444
arsmaster
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,705
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
To your last paragraph, is it fair to say the Leafs probably gave up more quality chances? I think this could be a fair statement. I will admit i don't watch the Nucks a lot, but maybe fans couyld give some insight
The Canucks for being as good as they are, struggled mightily in giving up scoring chances last year.

The only reason they won the presidents trophy is because they were bailed out by their goalies, time and time again.

I'm not going to say that they were terrible defensively or anything like that, but I would say they were probably in the middle of the pack for scoring chances against per game.

Our team MVP's last year were the two goalies and it wasn't even close.

arsmaster is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 11:37 AM
  #445
Liferleafer
RIP Mrs Doubtfire
 
Liferleafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The Canucks for being as good as they are, struggled mightily in giving up scoring chances last year.

The only reason they won the presidents trophy is because they were bailed out by their goalies, time and time again.

I'm not going to say that they were terrible defensively or anything like that, but I would say they were probably in the middle of the pack for scoring chances against per game.

Our team MVP's last year were the two goalies and it wasn't even close.
That is the difference, our defense was admitedly bad, but our goalies didn't bail them out.

Liferleafer is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 12:02 PM
  #446
Numbers
Registered User
 
Numbers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,084
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
I have no problems with Lou at the right price as I have said before. I think Kipper would be cheaper. I said Ward could be a dark horse, and if they don't play well, who knows? Backstrom would be way cheaper as well. And I never said I wanted Thomas just that he was out there for nothing, lol. The thing is I am just putting some of the names I think out there. I guess it depends are you looking for a short term or long term guy. If Reimer has the stuff, and I think it is realistic he could. he at least has the right mentality. I would have a problem with none of those guys, well not crazy about cookoo for coco puffs but just showing options.....lol.

Forgot to add I am not worried about regression the age is fine, I wouldn't haver listed Kipper otherwise. Just saying if Reimer is what they think he is a cheaper short term mentor is another option. but if we were gonna say sell the farm, well why not explore even unlikely scenerios like Ward?
Ok but who are going to replace these goalies on their respected teams? Calgary and Carolina do not have much coming up the pipeline that is even close to starting. Let me ask you if Toronto spent almost 200 million on 2 players in the offseason would you want them to trade their bonefide starter? Backstrom could potentially be available, but it just not make sense for Minnesota to trade their starter when they finally feel they can compete. If you want to use Harding as excuse go ahead, but going into this season it would be terrible player management if Minnesota took such a big risk after spending huge money. Maybe you are not cookoo for coco puffs, but this is just a poor analysis.


Last edited by Numbers: 11-14-2012 at 12:11 PM.
Numbers is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 12:07 PM
  #447
doorman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Thunder Bay
Country: Canada
Posts: 414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Kipper - based on the Flames off-season acquisitions they are pushing for a playoff spot. Kipper is their MVP. *IF* he is traded I expect it at the deadline for a very high price. Top prospect + 1st

Backstrom - Inferior to Luongo is almost all respects. I doubt the Wild trade their #1 after signing 2 of the biggest free agents. If Harding does play well I expect a 1A/1B situation until the trade deadline.

Thomas - I thought he was taking the year off? He's still a much better backup than Khudobin and in a shortened season he's worth more as insurance than a late pick to a contender like Boston.

Ward - I don't see him being moved, if Carolina wanted to shed salary dealing Semin at the deadline would make so much more sense. If for whatever reason Peters became the #1 () Ward would fetch a lot.

For every complaint against Luongo (age, contract, playoff record) Ward is the opposite. Rielly or Gardiner as the base of a package and keep adding IMO.
I never said Kipper would be I said could be, lol.

Backstrom may not be as good but is a UFA and if there is no season costs nothing. He is inferior though mostly everyway, how?

Ward would cost the farm for sure, but he is younger and has a cup, tell me that doesn't count.

doorman is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 12:16 PM
  #448
doorman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Thunder Bay
Country: Canada
Posts: 414
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Ok but who are going to replace these goalies on their respected teams? Calgary and Carolina do not have much coming up the pipeline that is even close to starting. Let me ask you if Toronto spent almost 200 million on 2 players in the offseason would you want them to trade their bonefish starter? Backstrom could potentially be available, but it just not make sense for Minnesota to trade their starter when they finally feel they can compete. If you want to use Harding as excuse go ahead, but going into this season it would be terrible player management if Minnesota took such a big risk after spending huge money. Maybe you are not cookoo for coco puffs, but this is just a poor analysis.
Ok, first off the cookoo for coco puffs was a referal to Thomas, as he is crazy. Next slow down on your calling my analysis poor, no need for that, i simply threw out possibilities. That being said how is Harding an excuse? I was simply putting Backstroms name out there. He makes a huge salary and the Wild may choose to sell it off, secondly if there is no season he is UFA and can just be signed. And that Backstrom is UFA at years end, they may trade him, if there is a season as opposed to lose him for possibly nothing. I said Ward was a dark horse, I was simply stating sometimes suprises come up, you offer a sweet deal and never know, right?

doorman is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 12:18 PM
  #449
kthsn
Registered User
 
kthsn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,728
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorman View Post
I never said Kipper would be I said could be, lol.

Backstrom may not be as good but is a UFA and if there is no season costs nothing. He is inferior though mostly everyway, how?

Ward would cost the farm for sure, but he is younger and has a cup, tell me that doesn't count.
Backstrom
- I think Backstrom has declined since '09, but overall he's worse statistically
- best seasons were played behind an ultra defensive system, as opposed to Luongo being a Vezina nominee in a offense first system and a trap sytem
- older, more expensive (I doubt the top UFA goalie takes a discount for a lottery team)
- has been playing around ~50 games for the past few seasons

Ward
- I pointed out how Wards strengths (age, contract length, Cup) were Luongo's weaknesses
- If Luongo costs a lot (from rumoured Gillis demands) Ward would then cost much more right?
- Canucks have depth at G allowing Luongo to be expendable, Canes do not

kthsn is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 12:28 PM
  #450
colchar
Registered User
 
colchar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,373
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I've gotta ask...

1.Name the goalies you think MAY be available (that play similarly to Luongo) at a "reasonable" price.

If, and it is a big 'if', they (the Leafs) could convince Thomas to play this year Boston would probably trade him. I think his choice to sit out has more to do with the team being ticked at his political comments than anything else so there is a possibility, however slim, that he would be willing to play for someone else.

Other than him, your question in unanswerable until a new CBA is signed because that will determine the salary cap, etc. and thus the market for goalies. If teams need to make moves for financial reasons under the new agreement then there might be goalies who are moved. If the new deal does not necessitate moves then, barring the Thomas scenario playing out, Luongo becomes the most viable option.

But, right now, it really all boils down to the new CBA.

colchar is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:23 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.