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Old
11-14-2012, 08:54 PM
  #501
Liferleafer
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Ya I do... and trading valuable and important young players for a goaltender on the downside of his career doesn't fit with that.
You know what doesn't fit with winning...goalies who xan't stop a beach ball. Tell me honestly, and i"m not sure what young players you think i am offering, were do you see Kadri or Colbourne fitting on this team. You seem so high on Kuli yet Mac has been more consistant. Colborne can't even get it going with the Marlies. Right now, we have Kuli, Mac, JVR,Kessel,Lupul,Frattin,Brown...that is 7 wingers, you don't want to move any...were does Kadri go?Bozak,Grabo,Connolly,McClement,Steckel...were does Colborne go? Mckegg,Damigo and others..were do they go when ready? All of these gems and we still don't have a reliable starter. Lupul is UFA, a protected first means you don't get burned for a top 10 pick...JVR can play with Kessel and bingo...we have our starter.

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11-14-2012, 08:56 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
He doesn't need to sign for 5 years. At this point, a 1or2-year stop gap to see just what the Leafs have in James Reimer is the ideal scenario.

Right now, there's no way to get out of Luongo's contract, as there's no CBA.



Kipper has 1 year remaining after this one... at $5.8m. Where are you getting 4-5 years from?? Spitballing? no need. His current contract is what we want.

Colborne / Frattin have a long way to go before replacing those 2... and even within the next 5 years they do get replaced, you're talking about moving guys in their prime with contracts that we'd control the length of.... not on the tail end of their careers with lots of contract left.
If you were Kipper, and you were a free agent (and decided to leave Calgary, which is unlikely) you would likely be looking for a 4-5 year deal, no?

Why only sign for 2? Yes it would be convient for toronto... But definitely not Kipper.

Kipper being a Leaf is as likely as Iginla being a Canuck.

Those guys are secondary players... The fact that their in their prime and their secondary players tells you something about their overall value/contribution.


With the exception of Kessel, Bozak and Reilly Luongo is a guaranteed lock to be more important to the Leafs than anyone else on the roster.

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11-14-2012, 08:57 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
If you were Kipper, and you were a free agent (and decided to leave Calgary, which is unlikely) you would likely be looking for a 4-5 year deal, no?

Why only sign for 2? Yes it would be convient for toronto... But definitely not Kipper.

Kipper being a Leaf is as likely as Iginla being a Canuck.

Those guys are secondary players... The fact that their in their prime and their secondary players tells you something about their overall value/contribution.


With the exception of Kessel, Bozak and Reilly Luongo is a guaranteed lock to be more important to the Leafs than anyone else on the roster.
I hope that was a typo.

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11-14-2012, 09:00 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
We'd be relying on James Reimer just like Vancouver would be relying on Cory Schneider. If that doesn't work, we'll deal with that when it comes.
I think that the biggest problem with many of your posts is that you seem to forget Burke and the Leafs operate in results based business. You talk as though Burke has nothing to worry about and can continue to toil away with goaltenders who are not producing. I know that if my boss is telling me I am not performing well I find a way to get my butt in gear. Do you think that Burke is free to remain carefree and just tell his boss, oh well there is next years free agents.

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11-14-2012, 09:00 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I hope that was a typo.
Ya...he mispelled Getzlaf...to dream the impossible dream...

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11-14-2012, 09:02 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I think that the biggest problem with many of your quotes is that you seem to forget Burke and the Leafs operate in results based business. You talk as though Burke has nothing to worry about and can continue to toil away with goaltenders who are not producing. I know that if my boss is telling me I am not performing well I find a way to get my butt in gear. Do you think that Burke is free to remain carefree and just tell his boss, oh well there is next years free agents.
Say what you will, imo, Burke has done ok here. He had made us younger and has built our pool. I truely think now is when he puts the pedal down and aquires some "now" players to increase the wins.

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11-14-2012, 09:05 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You know what doesn't fit with winning...goalies who xan't stop a beach ball. Tell me honestly, and i"m not sure what young players you think i am offering, were do you see Kadri or Colbourne fitting on this team. You seem so high on Kuli yet Mac has been more consistant. Colborne can't even get it going with the Marlies. Right now, we have Kuli, Mac, JVR,Kessel,Lupul,Frattin,Brown...that is 7 wingers, you don't want to move any...were does Kadri go?Bozak,Grabo,Connolly,McClement,Steckel...were does Colborne go? Mckegg,Damigo and others..were do they go when ready? All of these gems and we still don't have a reliable starter. Lupul is UFA, a protected first means you don't get burned for a top 10 pick...JVR can play with Kessel and bingo...we have our starter.
This is a great post and completely true. The problem many fans have is they never want to lose any players that have any value. But we all know that it is true that most players will move eventually, very few stay with a team their entire careers. General Managers always need to stay objective and not get too attached like fans do. It is one of the skills that many do not have.

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11-14-2012, 09:07 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Say what you will, imo, Burke has done ok here. He had made us younger and has built our pool. I truely think now is when he puts the pedal down and aquires some "now" players to increase the wins.
I wasn't commenting on how Burke has done. I was explaining to seanlinden why Burke cannot just wait every year for free agents to sign with the team. In regards to your comment I think Burke is a good GM he built the Canucks well, and has made some good trades for the Leafs.

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11-14-2012, 09:12 PM
  #509
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I wasn't commenting on how Burke has done. I was explaining to seanlinden why Burke cannot just wait every year for free agents to sign with the team. In regards to your comment I think Burke is a good GM he built the Canucks well, and has made some good trades for the Leafs.
If there's no season, he will have to wait.

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11-14-2012, 09:13 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So what about someone like Lupul? 29 years old, 1 year left on his deal, if he doesn't feel like sticking around in Toronto waiting for "valuable and important young players" to actually start winning games, Burke would be wise to sell high on him.
Like I said earlier, not gonna happen. You reward guys who breakout with your team with new contracts, not trade them away. Toronto will simply value Lupul significantly greater than Vancouver will. The guy is a point-per-game player for $4.25m in Toronto, the Canucks simply can't view him as the same.

He's gotta find his way out of favour before Toronto's going to trade / get rid of him. Burke (and any GM) would be wise to sell a player when he isn't overperforming for your team.

As a rule of thumb, in any deal, look for players who would be valued greater by their new team than their current. That puts a point-per-game #1 LW like Lupul out of the question, like Toronto's first line centre Bozak, and one of only two top 6 forwards with size in Kulemin. It puts a redundant winger like MacArthur, or redundant centre like Lombardi on the table. Continue to add pieces that should be undervalued by the leafs until you surpass Luongo's value to the Canucks, or the Leafs maximum willingness to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
If you were Kipper, and you were a free agent (and decided to leave Calgary, which is unlikely) you would likely be looking for a 4-5 year deal, no?

Why only sign for 2? Yes it would be convient for toronto... But definitely not Kipper.

Kipper being a Leaf is as likely as Iginla being a Canuck.

Those guys are secondary players... The fact that their in their prime and their secondary players tells you something about their overall value/contribution.


With the exception of Kessel, Bozak and Reilly Luongo is a guaranteed lock to be more important to the Leafs than anyone else on the roster.
If we're talking about Kipper as a UFA, we're talking a year and a half down the road....

Luongo may be more important to the Leafs in the immidiate, but it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that the Leafs outlook isn't the immidiate.

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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
there is a reason why we are shopping Luongo, and Burke is (at the very least) kicking the tires on Luongo.

Says something about Reimer and Schnieder
Schneider's absolutely got an edge, and Toronto's coming from a position where goaltending was an issue while Vancouver is coming from a position where goaltending is a luxury.

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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
You know what doesn't fit with winning...goalies who xan't stop a beach ball. Tell me honestly, and i"m not sure what young players you think i am offering, were do you see Kadri or Colbourne fitting on this team. You seem so high on Kuli yet Mac has been more consistant. Colborne can't even get it going with the Marlies. Right now, we have Kuli, Mac, JVR,Kessel,Lupul,Frattin,Brown...that is 7 wingers, you don't want to move any...were does Kadri go?Bozak,Grabo,Connolly,McClement,Steckel...were does Colborne go? Mckegg,Damigo and others..were do they go when ready? All of these gems and we still don't have a reliable starter. Lupul is UFA, a protected first means you don't get burned for a top 10 pick...JVR can play with Kessel and bingo...we have our starter.
Personally, I don't see Kadri fitting in at all and I sincerely hope Burke finally cuts his losses with that one. Colborne is still a long term project, so of little concern in the immediate. Consistency amongst depth players isn't a huge issue when you consider that the Leafs have 6-7 guys reasonably capable of potting 20+, what is a big issue is size in the top 6. Kulemin & JvR are the only 2 guys who can provide that. Same goes for the likes of McKegg, d'Amigo and others. Find a spot for them when they indicate they're ready for the big show.

In a perfect world, JvR does find his way to Kessel's wing... but that's just not how it works in reality. Lupul was there until he got hurt last year, and they produced at a point per game. It's his job to lose... and you don't trade a guy who played that well for you until he loses it.

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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I think that the biggest problem with many of your posts is that you seem to forget Burke and the Leafs operate in results based business. You talk as though Burke has nothing to worry about and can continue to toil away with goaltenders who are not producing. I know that if my boss is telling me I am not performing well I find a way to get my butt in gear. Do you think that Burke is free to remain carefree and just tell his boss, oh well there is next years free agents.
I think your biggest problem is that you seem to forget who the GM of the Leafs is. His name is Brian Burke, he's one of the most stubborn guys out there -- easily the type that will overvalue his own players and continue to build his young team rather than giving up young pieces to trade for a 33 year old goaltender who has a contract that he's been extremely vocal against.

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I wasn't commenting on how Burke has done. I was explaining to seanlinden why Burke cannot just wait every year for free agents to sign with the team. In regards to your comment I think Burke is a good GM he built the Canucks well, and has made some good trades for the Leafs.
He doesn't need to. Every year goaltenders become available. Right now, the plan is to stick with a 24-year guy who proved to be a high quality #1 goaltender until he got a concussion, and look for a short-term stop-gap solution to help ensure his success. If this season gets played and it's proven that Reimer doesn't have what it takes, then maybe we'll be prepared to pay a higher amount for a guy who's contract requires him to be the #1.


Last edited by seanlinden: 11-14-2012 at 09:19 PM.
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Old
11-14-2012, 09:23 PM
  #511
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I hope that was a typo.
Meant Gardiner haha

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11-14-2012, 09:24 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I think your biggest problem is that you seem to forget who the GM of the Leafs is. His name is Brian Burke, he's one of the most stubborn guys out there -- easily the type that will overvalue his own players and continue to build his young team rather than giving up young pieces to trade for a 33 year old goaltender who has a contract that he's been extremely vocal against.
He was the GM of my team before yours, so ya I know who he is. Brian Burke loves to make trades. Hmmmmm sound familiar to you too? Anyways ya he is stubborn, but not stupid. He said he was going to upgrade goaltending position, and knows it is a problem. He had other options like Vokoun who either did not want to sign in Toronto, or Burke had other plans. At any rate I doubt he does what you are saying. He is smarter then that.

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11-14-2012, 09:29 PM
  #513
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He was the GM of my team before yours, so ya I know who he is. Brian Burke loves to make trades. Hmmmmm sound familiar to you too? Anyways ya he is stubborn, but not stupid. He said he was going to upgrade goaltending position, and knows its is a problem. He had other options like Vokoun who either did not want to sign in Toronto, or Burke had other plans. At any rate I doubt he does what you are saying. He is smarter then that.
Then you should know how long he stuck with Dan Cloutier....

Since coming to Toronto, and he's been here a while, Burke's made lots of trades and acquisitions. He's acquired 2 players over the age of 30 -- Francois Beauchemin (30 years old, 3-year UFA) and Brad May (1 year remaining, for a 6th round pick). Trading his better young players for a 33 year old goaltender with a contract that he's gone on tirades about for the last couple years just isn't his move.

At any rate, I doubt he does what you are saying. He is smarter than that. I'm sure he's got a plan, and that trading his important young players for Luongo isn't it.

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11-14-2012, 09:33 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Then you should know how long he stuck with Dan Cloutier....

Since coming to Toronto, and he's been here a while, Burke's made lots of trades and acquisitions. He's acquired 2 players over the age of 30 -- Francois Beauchemin (30 years old, 3-year UFA) and Brad May (1 year remaining, for a 6th round pick). Trading his better young players for a 33 year old goaltender with a contract that he's gone on tirades about for the last couple years just isn't his move.

At any rate, I doubt he does what you are saying. He is smarter than that.
Well I guess we can wait and see which one of us he is smarter than

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11-14-2012, 09:34 PM
  #515
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Like I said earlier, not gonna happen. You reward guys who breakout with your team with new contracts, not trade them away. Toronto will simply value Lupul significantly greater than Vancouver will. The guy is a point-per-game player for $4.25m in Toronto, the Canucks simply can't view him as the same.

He's gotta find his way out of favour before Toronto's going to trade / get rid of him. Burke (and any GM) would be wise to sell a player when he isn't overperforming for your team.

As a rule of thumb, in any deal, look for players who would be valued greater by their new team than their current. That puts a point-per-game #1 LW like Lupul out of the question, like Toronto's first line centre Bozak, and one of only two top 6 forwards with size in Kulemin. It puts a redundant winger like MacArthur, or redundant centre like Lombardi on the table. Continue to add pieces that should be undervalued by the leafs until you surpass Luongo's value to the Canucks, or the Leafs maximum willingness to pay.



If we're talking about Kipper as a UFA, we're talking a year and a half down the road....

Luongo may be more important to the Leafs in the immidiate, but it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that the Leafs outlook isn't the immidiate.



Schneider's absolutely got an edge, and Toronto's coming from a position where goaltending was an issue while Vancouver is coming from a position where goaltending is a luxury.



Personally, I don't see Kadri fitting in at all and I sincerely hope Burke finally cuts his losses with that one. Colborne is still a long term project, so of little concern in the immediate. Consistency amongst depth players isn't a huge issue when you consider that the Leafs have 6-7 guys reasonably capable of potting 20+, what is a big issue is size in the top 6. Kulemin & JvR are the only 2 guys who can provide that. Same goes for the likes of McKegg, d'Amigo and others. Find a spot for them when they indicate they're ready for the big show.

In a perfect world, JvR does find his way to Kessel's wing... but that's just not how it works in reality. Lupul was there until he got hurt last year, and they produced at a point per game. It's his job to lose... and you don't trade a guy who played that well for you until he loses it.



I think your biggest problem is that you seem to forget who the GM of the Leafs is. His name is Brian Burke, he's one of the most stubborn guys out there -- easily the type that will overvalue his own players and continue to build his young team rather than giving up young pieces to trade for a 33 year old goaltender who has a contract that he's been extremely vocal against.



He doesn't need to. Every year goaltenders become available. Right now, the plan is to stick with a 24-year guy who proved to be a high quality #1 goaltender until he got a concussion, and look for a short-term stop-gap solution to help ensure his success. If this season gets played and it's proven that Reimer doesn't have what it takes, then maybe we'll be prepared to pay a higher amount for a guy who's contract requires him to be the #1.
Question for you, seeing how you feel about Kadri and Colborne (my thoughts as well by the way) would you do Kadri, Colborne and a protected 1st for Luongo?

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11-14-2012, 09:40 PM
  #516
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Question for you, seeing how you feel about Kadri and Colborne (my thoughts as well by the way) would you do Kadri, Colborne and a protected 1st for Luongo?
Hahahaahahahahahh....

Not a chance. Kadri? Sure. Colborne? Sure. Protected 1st? Sure. Combined? Forget it.

From Toronto's perspective, the first is probably most valuable (plenty of older prospects, need to keep the system flowing), followed by Colborne then Kadri. With Kadri, the Canucks could probably get MacArthur in the deal as well... with the first, that's basically it, plus a guy with little value to Toronto like Lombardi. If we're talking about Colborne, then the Canucks could likely get whatever trade value a guy like Franson has.

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11-14-2012, 09:42 PM
  #517
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Hahahaahahahahahh....

Not a chance. Kadri? Sure. Colborne? Sure. Protected 1st? Sure. Combined? Forget it.

From Toronto's perspective, the first is probably most valuable (plenty of older prospects, need to keep the system flowing), followed by Colborne then Kadri. With Kadri, the Canucks could probably get MacArthur in the deal as well... with the first, that's basically it, plus a guy with little value to Toronto like Lombardi.
If we use your idea about Burke repeating what he always does.....then that 1st looks like a guarantee in a trade.

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11-14-2012, 09:46 PM
  #518
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Question for you, seeing how you feel about Kadri and Colborne (my thoughts as well by the way) would you do Kadri, Colborne and a protected 1st for Luongo?
Thank you again for being the voice of reason.

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11-14-2012, 09:46 PM
  #519
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If we use your idea about Burke repeating what he always does.....then that 1st looks like a guarantee in a trade.
I didn't know Burke traded a first for a 33 year old player since coming to Toronto....

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Thank you again for being the voice of reason.
Our 2 best forward prospects and first round pick... reasonable only in the fantasy world of Canucks fans.

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11-14-2012, 09:47 PM
  #520
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Hahahaahahahahahh....

Not a chance. Kadri? Sure. Colborne? Sure. Protected 1st? Sure. Combined? Forget it.

From Toronto's perspective, the first is probably most valuable (plenty of older prospects, need to keep the system flowing), followed by Colborne then Kadri. With Kadri, the Canucks could probably get MacArthur in the deal as well... with the first, that's basically it, plus a guy with little value to Toronto like Lombardi. If we're talking about Colborne, then the Canucks could likely get whatever trade value a guy like Franson has.
Well...i know you don"t care whether Luongo comes here or not, but i can tell you this, if that is all Burke offers, than we will be facing Luongo in a Panthers uniform as they will easily top that and consider it a deal.

I do believe however that Burke is going to try a little harder than you think.

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11-14-2012, 09:48 PM
  #521
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I didn't know Burke traded a first for a 33 year old player since coming to Toronto....
Well how often do star players in their early-mid thirties come on the market? Pronger comes to mind...Heck, he garnered two.

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11-14-2012, 09:50 PM
  #522
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Well how often do star players in their early-mid thirties come on the market? Pronger comes to mind...
Yeah, and that was with a playoff team to put them over the top. Toronto's one of the worst teams in the league.

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11-14-2012, 09:52 PM
  #523
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Well...i know you don"t care whether Luongo comes here or not, but i can tell you this, if that is all Burke offers, than we will be facing Luongo in a Panthers uniform as they will easily top that and consider it a deal.

I do believe however that Burke is going to try a little harder than you think.
That's absolutely fine. Luongo has a value to us, and if somebody else is willing to give more, then they should absolutely trade him there.

BTW, what do you think the Panthers are actually prepared to offer? At the end of the day, that's what determines a player's market value, and so far (at least in this thread), there only seems to be 1 team interested.

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11-14-2012, 10:08 PM
  #524
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Yeah, and that was with a playoff team to put them over the top. Toronto's one of the worst teams in the league.
Yup...one of the worst...yet status quo is what you preach.

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11-14-2012, 10:08 PM
  #525
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I think by the 6,500 or so posts on this particular topic we can determine the value coming back for Luo will be somewhere between what seanlinden and y2kcanucks are offering.......

really narrows it down...

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