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Obama wants to tax the rich - bad idea?

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Old
11-12-2012, 02:41 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
If Obama's raising taxes on the rich, he's also raising taxes on rich politicians. Including himself.
I'm not taking about raising taxes, I'm talking about raiding the bank accounts of the rich polticans. Squeeze ever last dime out of them and force them to live in the street for all I ****ing care. I should not have to have more money taken out of my pocket to cover the ****-ups of others in office.

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11-12-2012, 02:50 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
I'm not taking about raising taxes, I'm talking about raiding the bank accounts of the rich polticans. Squeeze ever last dime out of them and force them to live in the street for all I ****ing care. I should not have to have more money taken out of my pocket to cover the ****-ups of others in office.
Off your meds again?

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11-12-2012, 03:17 PM
  #53
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I don't think it's a coincidence his avatar is a tequila shot.

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11-12-2012, 03:27 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
What is this "punishment" you speak of? If you want something, you have to pay for it. You don't show up at a car dealership and complain that the dealer is punishing you by making you pay what it costs. People overwhelmingly like the major items in the U.S. budget (including, strangely, a massive, unnecessary military). Taxes are the price you pay to get those things.
Correct.

Can we stop with the whole, "the poor, innocent tax payers are being punished" nonsense? American citizens are at least partially complicit in our financial woes. Americans use these government services like crazy, yet they stamp their feet at any sign of raising taxes.

We like to give lip service to financial accountability but we rarely try to effect such change with our voting.

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11-12-2012, 03:30 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
Are you saying Obama is not rich and didn't spend money like a drunken salor?
Yes he's rich, no he didn't spend money like a drunken sailor.

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11-12-2012, 03:52 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
What is this "punishment" you speak of? If you want something, you have to pay for it. You don't show up at a car dealership and complain that the dealer is punishing you by making you pay what it costs. People overwhelmingly like the major items in the U.S. budget (including, strangely, a massive, unnecessary military). Taxes are the price you pay to get those things.

The fact that America is in this situation in the first place is largely due to irresponsible tax cuts a decade ago. The idea that you would attempt to rectify the situation without bringing tax rates back up is very odd.
Well said .

I also find it funny how many non rich are defending the rich . Do these people actually think the rich give a damn about anyone else ? These are the same guys who have off shored every job they can yet you still have people complaining if they pay a few extra % in taxes .

Everyone should pay there fair share and the rich are being taxed at there lowest levels in decades . The economy has never been worse yet the right wing thinks continuing with these same policies will somehow lead to a different outcome .

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11-12-2012, 03:54 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
Are you saying Obama is not rich and didn't spend money like a drunken salor?
I didn't say that at all.

You stated you wanted to "raid the bank accounts of those same rich politicans who drove up the debt in this country."

As in, the guys who put two wars on a bar tab and lowered taxes on the rich.

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11-12-2012, 04:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Well said .

I also find it funny how many non rich are defending the rich . Do these people actually think the rich give a damn about anyone else ? These are the same guys who have off shored every job they can yet you still have people complaining if they pay a few extra % in taxes .

Everyone should pay there fair share and the rich are being taxed at there lowest levels in decades . The economy has never been worse yet the right wing thinks continuing with these same policies will somehow lead to a different outcome .
Yup, how quickly people forget how the extremely rich had an income tax of up to 70% some centuries ago. Now it's barely even 7%, most big companies pay 0% (or even receive money because they provide jobs out of the goodness of their hearts). They could afford it and it was a time of national welfare the country will never see again.

The west killed itself with its own ideology. Corporate profits (given to shareholders) are yearly shipped out in the billions to never come back, producing industry is shipped out, while the United States has turned into the big red that was their enemy. Anyone should be able to see the rulers of the government are those who control the economic system, simply because they have the money to do so.

All "fixes" are given to the money speculators who are a huge part of the reason why the system is about to collapse in the first place. So, the plutocrats removed all regulations with lobbyists, get all the profits, socialize all the losses and receive all the money injections. Wait, it's because "they're successful and they deserve it". I wonder who will buy everything up after the collapse has occured and the country can be bought for a nickle? Probably those with all the money, while the citizens and nations will still be in debt to them for generations to come.

"Trickle down effect" is a lie with a purpose, so is basically everything we're indoctrinated to believe to create legitimacy to an inherently broken system, which has given exactly what it intentionally promised. Exponential growth, only those with the wads of money grow exponentially faster than what is healthy for even themselves, because now they've sucked out so much from the system they work in, they're about to break it.

I'm in no way an advocate for China, they have their own form of dictatorship, but at least they had a clear view of what the west really was, by being observers instead of participants. "Western bourgeois civilization, bourgeois democracy and the plan for a bourgeois republic have all gone bankrupt in the eyes of the Chinese people." - Mao. And it's not like he was quoted on that yesterday. It's not like they didn't have very good reasons not to become slaves to the west (neither did the Soviets**) by adapting our ideology fully, who've always wanted to exploit them and the rest of the world in every way they can*.

China has a democratic dictatorship where the government sets all the rules, because they don't want this to happen. They're still ********, but so are we and if you're a patriot, I hate to break it to you: you lost, because you forgot about your domestic (well, they won't be domestic much longer, plutocrats and oligarchy have never in history cared about nationality) enemies when the establishment pointed fingers everywhere else.

* So forget about any illusions about "they're jealous for our freedom", they're jealous because we, the western empire - and US specifically - are tyrants.
** Russia is actually more of a capitalistic country than most nations today, but it's still the old oligarchs that rule and they're of course just as undemocratic as anyone else. "Democracy" is a scam for the indoctrinated masses to believe they are free.


Last edited by Chimp: 11-12-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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Old
11-12-2012, 06:13 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
What is this "punishment" you speak of? If you want something, you have to pay for it. You don't show up at a car dealership and complain that the dealer is punishing you by making you pay what it costs. People overwhelmingly like the major items in the U.S. budget (including, strangely, a massive, unnecessary military). Taxes are the price you pay to get those things.



The fact that America is in this situation in the first place is largely due to irresponsible tax cuts a decade ago. The idea that you would attempt to rectify the situation without bringing tax rates back up is very odd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshimitsu View Post
Correct.

Can we stop with the whole, "the poor, innocent tax payers are being punished" nonsense? American citizens are at least partially complicit in our financial woes. Americans use these government services like crazy, yet they stamp their feet at any sign of raising taxes.

We like to give lip service to financial accountability but we rarely try to effect such change with our voting.
This is really the heart of the matter. The so-called Socialist governments of Europe have a more transparent way of doing business. The populace is taxed; they use services that help them live healthy, productive, fulfilling lives and they do so without a me-vs-government mentality.

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11-12-2012, 06:24 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
I also find it funny how many non rich are defending the rich.
This is relevant. Most people have a false sense of how wealthy America is on a household basis.

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11-12-2012, 06:28 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
This is relevant. Most people have a false sense of how wealthy America is on a household basis.
Which is why even the $250,000 threshold seems like a dishonest cutoff point. The median household income is like 50 grand. 98 percent of the population makes less than 250k - it's obvious why the Democrats picked that cutoff point, but it's also pure fantasy to assume the debt problem can be addressed by only modestly raising taxes on 2 percent of the population.

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11-12-2012, 06:35 PM
  #62
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I'm really ignorant on this subject but what will these increased taxes mean for small businesses?

If we do go of this fiscal cliff than I hear science spending ( NIH, NSF, DOE) gets cut 15 billion automatically. That we be a disaster for the universities, they will have to increase tuition for students or else cut research programs entirely.

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11-12-2012, 06:40 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post

* So forget about any illusions about "they're jealous for our freedom", they're jealous because we, the western empire - and US specifically - are tyrants.
** Russia is actually more of a capitalistic country than most nations today, but it's still the old oligarchs that rule and they're of course just as undemocratic as anyone else. "Democracy" is a scam for the indoctrinated masses to believe they are free.
Yup, and if wrote this in China, you'd be jailed. BTW no one in the west is stopping you from leaving.

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11-12-2012, 06:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Which is why even the $250,000 threshold seems like a dishonest cutoff point. The median household income is like 50 grand. 98 percent of the population makes less than 250k - it's obvious why the Democrats picked that cutoff point, but it's also pure fantasy to assume the debt problem can be addressed by only modestly raising taxes on 2 percent of the population.
Yeah, and to be fair I actually thought the number of 250K households was higher than it is. The way it's talked about in politics these days you'd think it were 15% or so. You're right though, the burden shouldn't fall only on those 2-3%.

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11-12-2012, 06:46 PM
  #65
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That we be a disaster for the universities, they will have to increase tuition for students or else cut research programs entirely.
As if they're not already high enough. Is it any wonder how our country got into the debt problem we currently find ourselves? The first big decision of most teenagers lives is how much debt they're willing to saddle themselves with for the sake of education.

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11-12-2012, 06:46 PM
  #66
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I'm really ignorant on this subject but what will these increased taxes mean for small businesses?
Pretty much nothing. It won't affect over 90% of all small businesses, and those that will be affected are likely Wall Street traders who file as a small business to reduce their taxes.

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11-12-2012, 08:27 PM
  #67
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Yup, and if wrote this in China, you'd be jailed. BTW no one in the west is stopping you from leaving.
Yeah why bother trying to change things in your country if you live in the West. Just move to China instead.

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11-12-2012, 09:10 PM
  #68
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Isn't it better for the economy long-term to allow the affluent to invest their money into the system? Aren't the returns 8x according to some theories? Doesn't the majority of tax revenue go into a black hole?

Perhaps someone here can explain how taxing the rich will aid in the economy's recovery. If anything, won't this slow down whatever progress is being made?
Businesses chose to expand or hire based on demand, and other market opportunities in an effort to maximize their profit. The decision is not really based on how much money they have in their pocket, because if there is no demand for products or services, investing that money would be wasted. Besides, if there is a good case to be made based on a sound business model, they can always find a bank to lend money.

You could say that high taxes on the rich might hurt demand for products like luxury yachts, or you could argue that given two countries, a business might decide they can maximize their profit by going to where the taxes are lowest. The third argument is that if banks and investors had more money lying around, they will look for opportunities to invest.

Heres the problem with the above: first, international finance is international. The pool of money out there for investment is many, many times larger than the amount invested by private individuals. Its not just a few rich Americans investing, there are vast multinational banks, governments (ie China), pension funds from unions and millions of middle class retirement accounts, and on and on providing capital.

Second, demand for luxury goods is just one sector of the economy. If you used that money to (for example) pay steel workers to build bridges, they then spend that money on stuff too, helping things like the housing market. This sucks if you are in the yacht business, but not so bad if you are a plumber or electrician. Its actually been empirically shown that reducing taxes on middle and low income earners has a much greater bang for the buck in terms of spurring economic activity. This is because those workers tend to spend the money rather than save it, and tend to spend it on things that benefit their local economies like housing, food, and healthcare. Or, If instead of building infrastructure we paid down the debt ( or even just reduced the deficit) that means that instead of investing their money in US treasury bonds, banks would need to find other places (ie the private sector) to put that money.

The trickiest argument is offshoring, because honestly its a mixed bag. Right now, the reasons to invest in a country like Germany, the US, Switzerland, Japan has very little to do with the cost of labor or the taxes on profit. You will never beat China on price. Doesnt matter how low taxes are, labor in the US will always be many, many times higher. You invest in a rich country because it has modern infrastructure, funding for scientific reasearch, an educated workforce, rule of law, access to markets, etc. That stuff costs money, and you can see plenty of modern economies in Europe and Asia that have much higher taxes and labor than the US, but still have strong economies. Racing to the bottom on price is like trying to be the cheapest store in the mall, rather than the brand name high end retailer known for quality.

I'll finish with this: Imagine if Apple decided in 1995 that because they could save 20% on taxes, they were going to move all their engineering, operations and design work to a country with low taxes like India (which incidently has some of the lowest taxes in the world on the rich). Think they would still be a global brand?

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11-13-2012, 11:08 PM
  #69
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11-13-2012, 11:20 PM
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If America taxed the top 2 percent at 100% of their income, it would only be enough to run the government for a few months. Raising taxes is a lazy band-aid to a much bigger problem.

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11-14-2012, 12:17 AM
  #71
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If America taxed the top 2 percent at 100% of their income, it would only be enough to run the government for a few months. Raising taxes is a lazy band-aid to a much bigger problem.
Agreed. This is what I was getting at before, but people don't want to hear it.

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11-14-2012, 12:24 AM
  #72
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If America taxed the top 2 percent at 100% of their income, it would only be enough to run the government for a few months. Raising taxes is a lazy band-aid to a much bigger problem.
also lazy: ignoring historically low tax rates.

Since roughly 99% of your posts are about how big the government is and about the debt - and that 99% is a conservative figure - would you like to specify what would be cut?

My opinion is that a big part of the problem is that growth of government became inevitable as the USA became a world power and fought two world wars. The world needed some leadership after the second world war in 25 years; the U.S. was the obvious country to do that. Hence the larger military. Then you've got a growing transportation system, one which has become the largest in the world. Good hospitals and doctors mean that people live longer, so there's more medical care, and of course because the health care system in the U.S. is profit-based and horrendously inefficient, the burden of health care costs to the government has grown enormously.

The point is that there has pretty much never been a superpower that didn't have a relatively large and powerful centralized government. That's not to say that bloated government is good, but that it's unrealistic to pretend that the U.S. can just go back to early 19th century government and maintain its place in the world and have its citizens maintain a high standard of living. My view isn't that the U.S. government is some ungainly behemoth, but rather that people haven't accepted that a big government is necessary and that higher tax rates are required to pay for things.

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11-14-2012, 01:24 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
This is relevant. Most people have a false sense of how wealthy America is on a household basis.
I wonder what the inflation adjusted numbers would look like 50 years ago for comparison? Not sure if those sorts of numbers are available though. Oh, and I don't mean what people think people make, but what percent of families made the equivalent to $250,000 today.

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11-14-2012, 04:27 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by AP View Post
I'm not taking about raising taxes, I'm talking about raiding the bank accounts of the rich polticans. Squeeze ever last dime out of them and force them to live in the street for all I ****ing care. I should not have to have more money taken out of my pocket to cover the ****-ups of others in office.
Ok King, you should lay off the tequila for a while. Or, you should move to a deserted island and start your own community. One where anarchy can rule.

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11-14-2012, 04:38 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
Yup, and if wrote this in China, you'd be jailed. BTW no one in the west is stopping you from leaving.
Even if they have wrong way of treating their people does not mean they have good ways of handling economics. At least some things that should be taken in to consideration.

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