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Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

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11-19-2012, 11:03 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Like IATL mentioned, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that revenues = profits. Yes, the NHL saw record REVENUES last year, but they also saw record EXPENSES. More than half of the teams in the league are not losing money, and more than half of the entire league's profits come from just 3 teams: The Leafs, Habs, and Rangers. Add in the Oilers, Canucks and Red Wings and you have almost 90% of NHL profits from just those 6 teams.

You like to talk about the owners getting $3.3B. Well, take off about $1.9B right off the top for player salaries, and then add in all the other expenses like flights, hotels, staff salaries, etc....

There are half of the teams in the league that are literally losing less money not having a season. That needs to be corrected. Part of it needs to be a reduced share for players, and the other like you mentioned (and I think most agree) is increased revenue sharing.



You are wrong on this as well. The players would have got 57% of HRR last year, regardless of what contracts were signed. That is the function of the escrow.

To simplify it - let's say it's a 1 team league with one player and the CBA is for 50% of HRR. If the league has $10M in revenue, the players salary for the year would be $5M. Whether his contract was for $1M, or $10M. The only thing that signing big money deals does is give the player a bigger stake in the HRR. The contracts from the last CBA were never absolute dollar amounts.
I don't have the numbers to show me that 90% of the revenue is coming from 6 teams.

I want to see those numbers somewhere other than your comment before I respond.

you're saying that 24 teams only make 10% of the revenues of the NHL.

This is clearly a desperate cry for massive profit sharing. I didn't realize it was this bad.

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11-19-2012, 11:04 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
I'm assuming you don't work at a place where you face the same risks as an NHL player.

You brought up the fact that there are teams in a poor market.

Here's a solution:

Revenue sharing with the top dogs and shutting down teams that cannot make money even with extra help.

By cutting player share, you are widening the profit margin for all of the teams: that means the top teams would significantly increase their share. Heck, if we need to make Phoenix profitable by cutting down player salaries, we are looking at a 15-85 split here boys.

You brought up the problems, I agree, but let's not act like the players are responsible for this mess. You sign Suter and Parise to the contracts you did, and now you're saying you're bankrupt and you can't honor that contract.

I mean, I understand deals made years ago, but are you telling me behaviour like this is acceptable?

I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I have my ideas, and I will discuss them with anyone on this forum. I only responded to all the replies out of respect, and because I think I have an answer for the challenges brought up.
What do you mean shutting down teams? Like league retraction? If it was that easy it would ahve already been done and there wouldn't have been a lockout. Also what you are spewing is great for the short-term. What about the long-term? If a team post record losses after one season are we gonna make a knee-jerk reaction to "shut them down"?

As for your very first post what does that have to do with anything? I could easily injure myself at the gym that could hamper me from doing my job. I could ewasily injure myself in a game in a rec league that would hamper myself from doing my job. So please explain how the players having all these "risks" means 2 cents.

As for Suter and Parise, who is Minnesota is saying they are bankrupt?

I think you are grabbing and taking problems from specific areas and applying it to the whole and coming up with short-term solutions.

Time to go back to the drawing board. See the similarities in the debate between you(players side) and the other posters(owners side) and how it's playing out in real life?

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11-19-2012, 11:06 AM
  #253
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Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger PA is finalizing details of its meeting participants today. NHL brass will include usual execs, owners and at least 1 general manager. #TSN

Good thing the PA was up in arms about the league taking a 2 week break. Then the league decides to meet and the PA is finalizing details on meeting participants. MAybe you should have been working on some meaningful proposals or new ideas. #caughtwiththeirpantsdown

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11-19-2012, 11:08 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
I'm sure Phoenix is a good idea in the long-term.
Well obviously it isn't. You missed the point, like a good foot of clearance over your head.

How many struggling teams do you move to Canada before that isn't a viable option? How many places in Canada are currently a viable option?

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11-19-2012, 11:09 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
I don't have the numbers to show me that 90% of the revenue is coming from 6 teams.

I want to see those numbers somewhere other than your comment before I respond.

you're saying that 24 teams only make 10% of the revenues of the NHL.

This is clearly a desperate cry for massive profit sharing. I didn't realize it was this bad.
This has been talked about ad nauseum. The Forbes numbers, though I doubt their accuracy, are pretty much the only thing anyone has to go on.

18 teams in the red, another 4 with under $5M in profits. Once the cap (and by extension the floor) goes up, and if and when the Canadian dollar goes down, probably a few more teams would be in the red.

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/#p_1_s_a0_

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11-19-2012, 11:10 AM
  #256
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Again, after all the **** that's been said, the NHLPA has never once claimed that NHL teams were doing better than the NHL suggests.

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11-19-2012, 11:11 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
To simplify it - let's say it's a 1 team league with one player and the CBA is for 50% of HRR. If the league has $10M in revenue, the players salary for the year would be $5M. Whether his contract was for $1M, or $10M. The only thing that signing big money deals does is give the player a bigger stake in the HRR. The contracts from the last CBA were never absolute dollar amounts.
This is why signing bonuses have become a norm when signing these big player contracts because it's guaranteed money in the players pocket up front.

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11-19-2012, 11:15 AM
  #258
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Again, after all the **** that's been said, the NHLPA has never once claimed that NHL teams were doing better than the NHL suggests.
No they just keep throwing out the term "record revenues" so that it sticks with some people who take it as being record profits and thus think the league is healthy.

...and they also do some fancy math on how the players have offered a billion dolalrs in concessions to the league and the league hasn't offered a cent to again try to sensationalize the media and make the owners look like villians.

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11-19-2012, 11:18 AM
  #259
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Well obviously it isn't. You missed the point, like a good foot of clearance over your head.

How many struggling teams do you move to Canada before that isn't a viable option? How many places in Canada are currently a viable option?
Attacking me adds nothing to this discussion.

Who's to say you didn't miss my points at least two feet above YOUR head.

Someone brought up that some teams are not profitable, THEREFORE we need to cut down player share.

My response:

Regardless of how much you cut down player share, some teams will not be profitable. A different solution is needed.

I have honestly tried to explain my points as logically as possible without attacking anyone. Not sure why you'd have to resort to a different approach.

I am open minded. If anyone can convince me I am wrong, I'm ready to switch perspectives. At the end of the day, that's what a forum is for.

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11-19-2012, 11:19 AM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger PA is finalizing details of its meeting participants today. NHL brass will include usual execs, owners and at least 1 general manager. #TSN

Good thing the PA was up in arms about the league taking a 2 week break. Then the league decides to meet and the PA is finalizing details on meeting participants. MAybe you should have been working on some meaningful proposals or new ideas. #caughtwiththeirpantsdown
Didnt they have like 2 days to figure that one out.
Its not that tough. Might be nice if Fehr doesnt show up 2 hours late though.

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11-19-2012, 11:24 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
S
Bettman needs to make concessions. This loser lawyer is a terrible human being and I hate him with all my heart. How I feel about him is not relevant though. What is relevant is that he has lead to 3 lockouts, and that he is single-handedly ruining the sport for everyone. The amount of frustration he has caused was already immense, and if he erases another year of hockey, this guy needs to be fired.

I actually want the PA to stay locked out for the year, and if that happens, stay locked out for a second year. The owners won't be strapping on skates, and let's be honest, if Crosby is not on NHL ice, they will not be able to charge the outrageous prices they already do.
I'm a little late to the party because frankly I rarely even click on this thread topic anymore and I'm resigned to a long lockout.

But you're giving Bettman an unfair shake here. Bettman inherited an absolute mess of a league after the NHLPA gang ***** the NHL in previous neg0tiation and to the point where players were making tons of money.(NBA like money) in a league where the revenues couldn't come close to matching the other big sports. Also note that an NHL lineup contains twice the amount of players as an NBA lineup. How ridiculous it was that NHL clubs were paying payroll in excess of what several NBA clubs were paying. The NBA being a far more profitable league and with better TV contracts, sponsors, etc.

Bettman took Goodenough to the shed and layed a beating on him which is likely the best thing to ever happen and the only reason we're even talking about NHL hockey in more than a dozen or so cities. The NHLPA was pricing itself out of most markets and reps like Pronger front center questioned why they should be worried about small market clubs, just get rid of them if they can't make a go of it (heavily ironic that the same Pronger ended up signing here) But that was your standard NHLPA star response at the time. If you're not the type of market that can pay me 10M then get lost.

Really without Bettman we don't have NHL hockey here and would have lost it when Quebec and Winnipeg were losing their clubs.

Fehr on the other hand was hired specfically to play hardball, basically single handedly wrecked MLB, and is now here to do the same. He could give a rats ass about teams, fans, league and Fehr exists in a world where he just figures he can demand and get anything and that the leagues somehow continue to be able to write out cheques.

To even call meetings with Fehr negotiation is a misnomer. The guy has one objective.

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11-19-2012, 11:29 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I'm a little late to the party because frankly I rarely even click on this thread topic anymore and I'm resigned to a long lockout.

But you're giving Bettman an unfair shake here. Bettman inherited and absolute mess of a league after the NHLPA gang ***** the NHL in previous neg0tiation and to the point where players were making tons of money.(NBA like money) in a league where the revenues couldn't come close to matching the other big sports.

Bettman took Goodenough to the shed and layed a beating on him which is likely the best thing to ever happen and the only reason we're even talking about NHL hockey in more than a dozen or so cities. The NHLPA was pricing itself out of most markets and reps like Pronger front center questioned why they should be worried about small market clubs, just get rid of them (heavily ironic that the same Pronger ended up signing here)

Really without Bettman we don't have NHL hockey here and would have lost it when Quebec and Winnipeg were losing their clubs.

Fehr on the other hand was hired specfically to play hardball, basically single handedly wrecked MLB, and is now here to do the same. He could give a rats ass about teams, fans, league and Fehr exists in a world where he just figures he can demand and get anything and that the leagues somehow continue to be able to write out cheques.

To even call meetings with Fehr negotiation is a misnomer. The guy has one objective.
I agree with all of what you said, actually.

I think part of the issue is I am very mad that a lockout is happening again, and I see Bettman as partly responsible. I think they should have started negotiations earlier, and I blame both for not doing that.

I also don't think what is happening is negotiations. It's two guys trying to win, which is counter-intuitive approach to the process.

Still, were I involved as a player, I see their side of things right now. If the contract restrictions are removed though, I would sign that deal. I would also not take a 2 week break from negotiations. At the time I wrote my comment, that's what I believe Bettman was reportedly suggesting.

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11-19-2012, 11:31 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
Attacking me adds nothing to this discussion.

Who's to say you didn't miss my points at least two feet above YOUR head.

Someone brought up that some teams are not profitable, THEREFORE we need to cut down player share.

My response:

Regardless of how much you cut down player share, some teams will not be profitable. A different solution is needed.

I have honestly tried to explain my points as logically as possible without attacking anyone. Not sure why you'd have to resort to a different approach.

I am open minded. If anyone can convince me I am wrong, I'm ready to switch perspectives. At the end of the day, that's what a forum is for.
Sorry for the comment but it's a little frustrating when you come back with the response that you did when clearly I wasn't saying that Phoenix was a good market now or in the future. I was just pointing out that it's not as easy as moving struggling teams to new locations.

However you're right no matter how much you cut down share there still won't be profitable teams and that's why the league needs less teams and this thing would be resolved, but we know that will never happen. However we all know that a 50/50 share is reasonable and why they can't even agree to that is ridiculous.

As stated before, the amount "given" to a player on a specific contract means nothing, it just places that player as a percentage in the PA for revenue sharing. As for the crazy contracts you're referring to they are given out by all the profitable teams who have tons of money to throw around and that's why they do. So it's hard for teams like Nashville, Phoenix, Islanders and the other poor teams to acquire talent unless it through the draft. Or do it like Florida did and have to take poor contracts from other teams.

So regardless of revenues overall it isn't a healthy 30 team league and it is even less healthy when the top teams can secure the higher talent due to massive contracts spread out over several and then absorbing long term costs in the minors should said player be a flop. What's your solution to how the Islanders, Coyotes, etc. are supposed to compete against that?

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11-19-2012, 11:32 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
Regardless of how much you cut down player share, some teams will not be profitable
Well, not really. At the end of the last lockout, with a $23M floor and $39M cap, most teams were profitable, or close to it. I know it will never get back down to that, but to say regardless how much you cut the players' share would not lead to all teams being profitable I think is false.

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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
A different solution is needed.
Most people agree. The problem is, who does the revenue sharing? The Oilers are profitable right now, but if/when the cap goes up, and if the Canadian dollar goes down, they could quickly find themselves in the red. They are profitable right now under ideal circumstances (sold out crowds and high Cdn $). Same for the Canucks - you think they will be selling out once the team starts to lose some of their star players and start dropping down the standings?

The only 3 teams that seem immune to any market conditions and economy and look like they will always be profitable are the Rangers, Habs, and the behemoth that is the Leafs. Is it fair to have those 3 teams prop up 20 other teams in perpetuity?

Those other teams certainly contribute to these 3's bottom line. But it's not really fair to those owners to pillage their coffers to support the Phoenix and Floridas of the league.

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11-19-2012, 11:42 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Most people agree. The problem is, who does the revenue sharing? The Oilers are profitable right now, but if/when the cap goes up, and if the Canadian dollar goes down, they could quickly find themselves in the red. They are profitable right now under ideal circumstances (sold out crowds and high Cdn $). Same for the Canucks - you think they will be selling out once the team starts to lose some of their star players and start dropping down the standings?
The Oilers are also only profitable right now because of their lower payroll as well. Wait until Hall, Ebs, Schultz, RNH, Yakupov are all on their next contract and then the enxt after that.

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11-19-2012, 11:43 AM
  #266
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I agree with all of what you said, actually.

I think part of the issue is I am very mad that a lockout is happening again, and I see Bettman as partly responsible. I think they should have started negotiations earlier, and I blame both for not doing that.

I also don't think what is happening is negotiations. It's two guys trying to win, which is counter-intuitive approach to the process.

Still, were I involved as a player, I see their side of things right now. If the contract restrictions are removed though, I would sign that deal. I would also not take a 2 week break from negotiations. At the time I wrote my comment, that's what I believe Bettman was reportedly suggesting.
Except the NHLPA refused to even start CBA negotations until mid-summer despite several overtures from the NHL owners. Likely entirely due to the fact the PA wanted to take advantage of one more UFA period under favorable contract rules for their members, since they knew months in advance the NHL was going to push for stricter contracting agreements.

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11-19-2012, 11:43 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
I agree with all of what you said, actually.

I think part of the issue is I am very mad that a lockout is happening again, and I see Bettman as partly responsible. I think they should have started negotiations earlier, and I blame both for not doing that.

I also don't think what is happening is negotiations. It's two guys trying to win, which is counter-intuitive approach to the process.

Still, were I involved as a player, I see their side of things right now. If the contract restrictions are removed though, I would sign that deal. I would also not take a 2 week break from negotiations. At the time I wrote my comment, that's what I believe Bettman was reportedly suggesting.
Unfortunately for us at this time we're paying for decades of rampant salary escalation that precipitated this. NHLPA salaries rising to the stratosphere.

Salary creep occurred ever since the WHA introduced a concept of free agency. For sure the players had lots to complain about before that but since the 70's salaries have skyrocketed.

But as far as winning is concerned Bettman pretty much has to "win" on behalf of member teams many of whom could just going to fold up shop if he doesn't. Its really amazing that Bettman has been able to keep 30 clubs in the fold during an economic meltdown in the US, and world economy. Fehr is bargaining on what behalf? the players second and 3rd mansions? Thats where it gets silly. The players have no skin in this game except greed. The owners are trying to make a go of keeping an unprofitable sport running in many markets. (which ironically is good for the NHLPA if only they could see past their nose.) But as in the classic Pronger example they can't and instead engage in an ongoing careful what you wish for game of chicken.

Finally, ask yourself how silly it is that the players AVERAGE takehome income from hockey is greater than at least 20 owners profit from their operations in this league.
We're at a point where about 500 players figure they're worth more, and deserve more money than their owners who are the ones putting hard capita on the line.

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11-19-2012, 11:45 AM
  #268
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Except the NHLPA refused to even start CBA negotations until mid-summer despite several overtures from the NHL owners. Likely entirely due to the fact the PA wanted to take advantage of one more UFA period under favorable contract rules for their members, since they knew months in advance the NHL was going to push for stricter contracting agreements.
Yeah it is pretty funny. The PA knew exactly what was coming stood by and did notihng about it. Then let it come to light and are now trying to look like millionaire victims.

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11-19-2012, 11:47 AM
  #269
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The Oilers are also only profitable right now because of their lower payroll as well. Wait until Hall, Ebs, Schultz, RNH, Yakupov are all on their next contract and then the enxt after that.
But with that will come playoff revenue right? So another 7-10M revenue/playoff round.

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11-19-2012, 11:52 AM
  #270
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But with that will come playoff revenue right? So another 7-10M revenue/playoff round.
I think a lot of people aren't realizing this. As long as the Oilers are a solid team that gets at least 2 rounds of playoffs a season in the future, which really should be the case with our core, they really should be quite fine financially. Well, as long as whatever comes from the arena deal doesn't end up costing the team that little bit of profit.

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11-19-2012, 11:52 AM
  #271
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But with that will come playoff revenue right? So another 7-10M revenue/playoff round.
Well as Oiler fans we hope, but with league parity there will be years that will provide serveral playoff rounds and likely years that will result in only a single round and 2 games...*gulp*

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11-19-2012, 11:53 AM
  #272
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I think a lot of people aren't realizing this. As long as the Oilers are a solid team that gets at least 2 rounds of playoffs a season in the future, which really should be the case with our core, they really should be quite fine financially. Well, as long as whatever comes from the arena deal doesn't end up costing the team that little bit of profit.
Most likely the biggest thing that will affect the Oilers financially is the value of the Canadian dollar.

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11-19-2012, 11:58 AM
  #273
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Most likely the biggest thing that will affect the Oilers financially is the value of the Canadian dollar.
This is very true. The Oilers do well financially coincides with the strength of the Canadian dollar. Right after the lockout, the loonie began to pick up.

The Oilers almost moved to Houston in 1998 and that's when the loonie was worth 60 cents US.

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11-19-2012, 11:59 AM
  #274
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Reimer and Replacement, you have given me a lot to think about.

I came into this thread fully on the NHLPA side. Now, I don't think that's as much the case anymore.

Reimer, my personal solution for making the Islanders and Coyotes would be compensation for losing a free agent from the league (create draft picks or transfer money).

I would also implement more revenue sharing than is currently happening, but not too much either. As Hoogar pointed out, how much is too much. I don't have the answer, but more than what is currently done is my solution.

Lastly, I would make cap space a commodity. I would sell it to other teams. Some teams aren't close to the cap, so I would make that cap space a commodity that you can trade. You'd have to make sure this is not abused though.

Also, I would stop the cap from growing. I'm not sure why it's going up so much every single year. The NHL is the one determining the cap (I know, based on a calculation). But I would say stop that, and ground it.

To make that happen, I would allow amnesty buy outs (one time to fix things) at no penalty.

Lastly, I would count waiver-eligible players in the AHL as part of the cap to fix the Redden situation, and if one of the long contract guys (Hossa, Luongo, etc.) retires, I'm keeping their cap hit for the duration of the contract.

As a side point, I would try to facilitate trades by somehow playing around with the Cap hits (maybe you can alter how much "cap hit" is sent the other way). I think that this could get messy though, and without looking into it fully, it's just an idea at this point that I have no practical implementation plan for.

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11-19-2012, 12:00 PM
  #275
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I just finished reading The Instigator by Jonathon Gatehouse. It thought it provided some interesting perspective on the whole business side of the sport.

I think its a good read especially considering it's so appropriate at this current time.

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