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Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

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11-22-2012, 12:22 PM
  #576
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No but the idea that you should be happy and roll over for whatever else someone wants is just as wrong.

It is astounding to me that people want the players to roll over for the owners. People seem to want to and are able to sympathize with a billionaire.

Well they are losing money they make no money you say. Yet how can you put a value of 150 million on a franchise like the Islanders or the Yotes? Because they don't tell you the total value of everything involved with owning the team. That should send bells ringing in peoples ears that perhaps just perhaps these owners are not as truthful as they would like you to believe.

It is also astounding that you have people in this thread side with the owners and call the players down like nothing yet post in the Katz arena thread calling him a crook at the same time. What the hell is that? Either these owners are saints trying to save the game we all love because they love it like we do or they are the lying sobs trying to gouge as much money as they can from us.

So which one is it then?
Its a fair question. tbh I'm not tossing beers back with either owners or players and I can't relate to the the concerns of either with the slightest sympathy.

That said, NHL hockey isn't really a profitable business and the return on investment is marginal. I do find it odd that even average players figure they're worth more money than their owners or anything that Wayne Gretzky, or all the historic allstar players made in the game.
People rail against Katz due to the degree of concessions he wants. He wants a better deal than pretty much anywhere and in one of the few markets that is profitable. If Katz was trying to get this identical deal for say the Phoenix Coyotes in a market like that I'd think he's reasonably covering his bases. Here he just wants a hockey club, a rink for free, and all attached revenues with no property tax payable because the city "owns" the arena..

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11-22-2012, 12:23 PM
  #577
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Interestingly MTS Pollstar numbers and tickets sold for MTS concerts are significantly down. Which can suggest the following:

1)That theres a finite amount of disposable bucks for arena entertainment in Winnipeg.
2)That Hockey nights mays be impacting this but then again the available event nights are exactly the same afairc. Didn't the Manitoba Moose exit as soon as the Jets came back?
3)AS in the case with a lot of new arena's a novelty factor may be at work where people just like attending events at the facility for awhile. This novelty factor often wearing off within 5-10yrs at which more baseline sustained attendance results are typically seen.
I always tend to blow off any assessments made in first 5-10 years of operation as they don't project well into what more typical longterm support will be.
The one thing about being a private company that TNSE is is that they don't have to reveal how much they make. But they are investing 100 million dollars of their own money in the downtown area this year.

I am going to assume that they are making quite a bit of money with or without the Jets.

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11-22-2012, 12:25 PM
  #578
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Kinda confirms my prior notion that there would be nothing interesting or revealing for me to tune into on any program Jason Strudwick is hosting.

What you refer to by Ian Mendes is another reason I tune out present day sports radio almost entirely. What an antiquated medium of information. I can just look up stuff myself and prefer to without trusting somebody elses vested opinion on the matter.
I haven't minded Strudwick when it comes to talking sports. But he has been a complete idiot when it comes to talking about the lockout. Glad Gregor put him in his place the other day on his show.

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11-22-2012, 12:29 PM
  #579
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So which one is it then?
They are two seperare issues. For the betterment of the game it makes sense that the players ahve to make concessions if a good chunk of the teams they play for can't make money while they are rolling in it.

When it comes to the arena issue for Katz it's an issue that he wants the city to take all the risk and pay for all the main expenses while he gets a sweetheart deal.

You can't really say how do you support Katz here and not support him here they are seperate issues my friend.

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11-22-2012, 12:37 PM
  #580
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They are two seperare issues. For the betterment of the game it makes sense that the players ahve to make concessions if a good chunk of the teams they play for can't make money while they are rolling in it.

When it comes to the arena issue for Katz it's an issue that he wants the city to take all the risk and pay for all the main expenses while he gets a sweetheart deal.

You can't really say how do you support Katz here and not support him here they are seperate issues my friend.
But they are not separate issues. This is what I have been trying to get across to people. The players don't trust the Owners. There is a reason for that because the Owners tend to not tell the truth or just totally omit things. This is a fundamental issue not just in these negotiations but in almost all negotiations when you are dealing with the mega wealthy.

There is no trust because to be quite frank you can't trust them. They will say one thing and do another and tell you it is just business. That is why there is a lot of animosity here and pretty much all labor negotiations.

One of the GMs already pointed out what the Owners think of the players and this is true for all owners of any large business. They view you as cattle. That is how you get treated as less then human. I have been personally apart of 2 large labor negotiations for 2 very large companies that locked out their employees and they viewed there employees as cattle. When a NHL gm said that I applauded because he was telling it like it is and if people can't see what is wrong with being thought of like that then I got nothing for you man.

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11-22-2012, 12:46 PM
  #581
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That said, NHL hockey isn't really a profitable business and the return on investment is marginal. .
Yet no one important acknowledges this.

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11-22-2012, 12:47 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
But they are not separate issues. This is what I have been trying to get across to people. The players don't trust the Owners. There is a reason for that because the Owners tend to not tell the truth or just totally omit things. This is a fundamental issue not just in these negotiations but in almost all negotiations when you are dealing with the mega wealthy.

There is no trust because to be quite frank you can't trust them. They will say one thing and do another and tell you it is just business. That is why there is a lot of animosity here and pretty much all labor negotiations.

One of the GMs already pointed out what the Owners think of the players and this is true for all owners of any large business. They view you as cattle. That is how you get treated as less then human. I have been personally apart of 2 large labor negotiations for 2 very large companies that locked out their employees and they viewed there employees as cattle. When a NHL gm said that I applauded because he was telling it like it is and if people can't see what is wrong with being thought of like that then I got nothing for you man.
Players seem to trust the owners, they just don't trust Bettman.

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11-22-2012, 12:47 PM
  #583
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Yet no one important acknowledges this.
So it begs the question

Is this really true or not?

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11-22-2012, 12:49 PM
  #584
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I haven't minded Strudwick when it comes to talking sports. But he has been a complete idiot when it comes to talking about the lockout. Glad Gregor put him in his place the other day on his show.
Gregor is just as stupid, I don't listen to the two of them anymore when it comes to the lockout. I don't know why they waste their time, because one comes off like a little kid and the other was a player so what is he suppose to say.

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11-22-2012, 12:50 PM
  #585
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So it begs the question

Is this really true or not?
No one will admit it. Guys were buying teams when the economy was great as a way to grow 3" to their penis. They weren't buying teams to make money.

Now they are trading that 3" in and want money.

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11-22-2012, 01:30 PM
  #586
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Man I love hamrlik. Entertaining

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle

Hamrlik on Erik Cole's comments: "I’m sure he got a nice signing bonus this summer so he didn’t sacrifice anything."

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11-22-2012, 01:54 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
But they are not separate issues. This is what I have been trying to get across to people. The players don't trust the Owners. There is a reason for that because the Owners tend to not tell the truth or just totally omit things. This is a fundamental issue not just in these negotiations but in almost all negotiations when you are dealing with the mega wealthy.
Well then keep fighting the good fight sir.

I don't care if the owners are rolling in money and using some of it to wipe their ass. If you want to be rich and weathy you own a business and take on the risks associated with owning one. If you want to make enough money to get by in the day to day in life you become a worker, simple as that.

edit: In case I didn't explain it well enough. One issue is employer vs. employee while the other issue is business owner vs. taxpayers. Which in English means two seperate issues.


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11-22-2012, 01:57 PM
  #588
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Well then keep fighting the good fight sir.

I don't care if the owners are rolling in money and using some of it to wipe their ass. If you want to be rich and weathy you own a business and take on the risks associated with owning one. If you want to make enough money to get by in the day to day in life you become a worker, simple as that.
Could not say it any better myself.

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11-22-2012, 01:58 PM
  #589
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Yet no one important acknowledges this.
I know they'd rather talk about the record revenues the league is experiencing every year. Not the large expenses incurred by the owners because Horcoff and Smyth would rather stay in their own hotel room rather than with a rookie.

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11-22-2012, 02:02 PM
  #590
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Gregor is just as stupid, I don't listen to the two of them anymore when it comes to the lockout. I don't know why they waste their time, because one comes off like a little kid and the other was a player so what is he suppose to say.
Yes but Struds isn't a player anymore and should hopefully be able to see the other side of it and why they have all the leverage and the reasons for them holding the hammer.

I'm just annoyed because Struds does a great job at seeing everything else through a two-way door except for his old days.

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11-22-2012, 02:02 PM
  #591
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Watching the NHLPA handle the negotiations is like watching a stupid man getting divorced from a good woman.

The stupid man talks big with all his buddies, he talks about issues that are very important to him but seem stupid to everyone else (like the details on how HRR is calculated). The stupid man has his head in the sand and ignores issues that we all know really impact him (CBA term length and honoring existing contracts).

As negotiations open, the stupid man makes big demands. The good woman ignores these demands because she is in no hurry. Things are already tanked financially (only 3 of 30 teams make money consistantly). The stupid man agrees to one small issue (changes to RFA terms) only to change his mind on the basis that his buddy didn't think it was a good idea (Chris Campoli is said to have nixed an NHL/NHLPA idea solely on his belief that it wasn't a good idea).

The stupid man sits at home, turning down lucrative work. He will teach her a lesson and not make any money out of fear that she will benefit. The good woman ignores this, and waits him out.

They negotiate. The stupid man makes a proposal based on the 'facts'. The good woman points out he is so stupid that he doesn't even understand his own finances (Steve Fehr is said to have so poorly understood entry level contracts that the meeting had to end, and that the NHLPA sent a letter of apology for wasting the NHL's time).

And one day, while he is sitting at home playing his XBox, the stupid man realizes that if he would have gone to work right from the start, and paid the good woman out based on her first offer, he'd be money ahead (ie. Andy Sutton, Roman Hamrlyk and Khabi). At that point the stupid man either picks up the phone and settles and heads to work, or he fires up Halo 4 and thinks to himself, "This will teach her!".

If you want to predict an end to the NHL lockout, just think of the stupidest man you know that got divorced. How did that go?

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11-22-2012, 02:07 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by HotToddy75 View Post
Watching the NHLPA handle the negotiations is like watching a stupid man getting divorced from a good woman.

The stupid man talks big with all his buddies, he talks about issues that are very important to him but seem stupid to everyone else (like the details on how HRR is calculated). The stupid man has his head in the sand and ignores issues that we all know really impact him (CBA term length and honoring existing contracts).

As negotiations open, the stupid man makes big demands. The good woman ignores these demands because she is in no hurry. Things are already tanked financially (only 3 of 30 teams make money consistantly). The stupid man agrees to one small issue (changes to RFA terms) only to change his mind on the basis that his buddy didn't think it was a good idea (Chris Campoli is said to have nixed an NHL/NHLPA idea solely on his belief that it wasn't a good idea).

The stupid man sits at home, turning down lucrative work. He will teach her a lesson and not make any money out of fear that she will benefit. The good woman ignores this, and waits him out.

They negotiate. The stupid man makes a proposal based on the 'facts'. The good woman points out he is so stupid that he doesn't even understand his own finances (Steve Fehr is said to have so poorly understood entry level contracts that the meeting had to end, and that the NHLPA sent a letter of apology for wasting the NHL's time).

And one day, while he is sitting at home playing his XBox, the stupid man realizes that if he would have gone to work right from the start, and paid the good woman out based on her first offer, he'd be money ahead (ie. Andy Sutton, Roman Hamrlyk and Khabi). At that point the stupid man either picks up the phone and settles and heads to work, or he fires up Halo 4 and thinks to himself, "This will teach her!".

If you want to predict an end to the NHL lockout, just think of the stupidest man you know that got divorced. How did that go?
I don't know much about divorce, but this is outstanding. Nicely summarized sir.

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11-22-2012, 02:08 PM
  #593
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Yes but Struds isn't a player anymore and should hopefully be able to see the other side of it and why they have all the leverage and the reasons for them holding the hammer.

I'm just annoyed because Struds does a great job at seeing everything else through a two-way door except for his old days.
I don't really see Struds as saying ownership is stupid though. He's on the players side no doubt, but I don't see him taking any big shots at his past employers.

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11-22-2012, 02:12 PM
  #594
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I don't really see Struds as saying ownership is stupid though. He's on the players side no doubt, but I don't see him taking any big shots at his past employers.
No not at all. I'm just annoyed because everything he says is exactly what I imagine when guys like Stamkos and Crosby get together and talk about and just a general train of how they are thinking. The kind of thinking that would make me want to slap them upside the head and tell them to get a grip on reality.

But you are right these pot shots that some players are talking are even more so over the top and makes them and their peers look even worse.

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11-22-2012, 02:13 PM
  #595
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I know they'd rather talk about the record revenues the league is experiencing every year. Not the large expenses incurred by the owners because Horcoff and Smyth would rather stay in their own hotel room rather than with a rookie.
Really irks me how Bettman was gloating about how great the NHL was only to do a 360 a month later. That and what happened in Minny drives me nuts. Sure players are greedy, but why not according to the owners and Bettman it was all sunshine and lollipops.

I'm glad someone finally asked the question with regards to sponsorship and why would someone invest in the NHL after yet another lockout. Maybe that's why the players are trying to protect their % of the pie in case of revenues dropping. They probably realize advertisement dollars have a good chance of becoming less.

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11-22-2012, 02:15 PM
  #596
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No not at all. I'm just annoyed because everything he says is exactly what I imagine when guys like Stamkos and Crosby get together and talk about and just a general train of how they are thinking. The kind of thinking that would make me want to slap them upside the head and tell them to get a grip on reality.

But you are right these pot shots that some players are talking are even more so over the top and makes them and their peers look even worse.
There really is no reality though when it comes to professional sports or the entertainment world.

The only reality that exists is the one the owners gave the players. One where you can sign a contract past the date you want to play til, but will be front loaded so you get your money even if you retire. A reality where you can do jack **** for most of a season, put up a decent playoffs and get paid over 3mil. A reality where your brain was absolute mush for close to a year but still get a 100mil contract.

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11-22-2012, 02:22 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by HotToddy75 View Post
Watching the NHLPA handle the negotiations is like watching a stupid man getting divorced from a good woman.

The stupid man talks big with all his buddies, he talks about issues that are very important to him but seem stupid to everyone else (like the details on how HRR is calculated). The stupid man has his head in the sand and ignores issues that we all know really impact him (CBA term length and honoring existing contracts).

As negotiations open, the stupid man makes big demands. The good woman ignores these demands because she is in no hurry. Things are already tanked financially (only 3 of 30 teams make money consistantly). The stupid man agrees to one small issue (changes to RFA terms) only to change his mind on the basis that his buddy didn't think it was a good idea (Chris Campoli is said to have nixed an NHL/NHLPA idea solely on his belief that it wasn't a good idea).

The stupid man sits at home, turning down lucrative work. He will teach her a lesson and not make any money out of fear that she will benefit. The good woman ignores this, and waits him out.

They negotiate. The stupid man makes a proposal based on the 'facts'. The good woman points out he is so stupid that he doesn't even understand his own finances (Steve Fehr is said to have so poorly understood entry level contracts that the meeting had to end, and that the NHLPA sent a letter of apology for wasting the NHL's time).

And one day, while he is sitting at home playing his XBox, the stupid man realizes that if he would have gone to work right from the start, and paid the good woman out based on her first offer, he'd be money ahead (ie. Andy Sutton, Roman Hamrlyk and Khabi). At that point the stupid man either picks up the phone and settles and heads to work, or he fires up Halo 4 and thinks to himself, "This will teach her!".

If you want to predict an end to the NHL lockout, just think of the stupidest man you know that got divorced. How did that go?
Hahaha they are still paying out of their ass.

Great write-up there. Only thing is that once in a while a bitter negotiation works out really well for one side in the future like it did for the players but of course they don't want to recognize and they would just rather keep saying you're the one who was the jack ass and I gave you everything 6 years ago.

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11-22-2012, 02:25 PM
  #598
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There really is no reality though when it comes to professional sports or the entertainment world.

The only reality that exists is the one the owners gave the players. One where you can sign a contract past the date you want to play til, but will be front loaded so you get your money even if you retire. A reality where you can do jack **** for most of a season, put up a decent playoffs and get paid over 3mil. A reality where your brain was absolute mush for close to a year but still get a 100mil contract.
Exactly so if they pull their heads out of the sand and realize this these dumbasses wouldn't have just missed a whole seasons worth of pay.

I really mean this comment when I say it. I hope that when the NHL does resume that AO keeps his ass in Russia.

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11-22-2012, 02:30 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
But they are not separate issues. This is what I have been trying to get across to people. The players don't trust the Owners. There is a reason for that because the Owners tend to not tell the truth or just totally omit things. This is a fundamental issue not just in these negotiations but in almost all negotiations when you are dealing with the mega wealthy.

There is no trust because to be quite frank you can't trust them. They will say one thing and do another and tell you it is just business. That is why there is a lot of animosity here and pretty much all labor negotiations.

One of the GMs already pointed out what the Owners think of the players and this is true for all owners of any large business. They view you as cattle. That is how you get treated as less then human. I have been personally apart of 2 large labor negotiations for 2 very large companies that locked out their employees and they viewed there employees as cattle. When a NHL gm said that I applauded because he was telling it like it is and if people can't see what is wrong with being thought of like that then I got nothing for you man.
Man what I wouldnt do to have my employer treat my like cattle. Free private jet, free meals, free hotels, free transportation, access to free physio, psychologists, the best doctors in the province, dont even work 12 months a year and it comes with a 7 figure salary.

Sign me up to be treated like cattle if thats what cattle get treated like, although you would think steak or ground beef would be way more expensive with such luxuries

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11-22-2012, 02:32 PM
  #600
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Really irks me how Bettman was gloating about how great the NHL was only to do a 360 a month later. That and what happened in Minny drives me nuts. Sure players are greedy, but why not according to the owners and Bettman it was all sunshine and lollipops.

I'm glad someone finally asked the question with regards to sponsorship and why would someone invest in the NHL after yet another lockout. Maybe that's why the players are trying to protect their % of the pie in case of revenues dropping. They probably realize advertisement dollars have a good chance of becoming less.
Because every owner will always say things are going great even if the ship is half sunk. Not a big surprise they flip flopped once "negotiations" started.

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