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Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

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Old
11-22-2012, 03:33 PM
  #601
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
Exactly so if they pull their heads out of the sand and realize this these dumbasses wouldn't have just missed a whole seasons worth of pay.

I really mean this comment when I say it. I hope that when the NHL does resume that AO keeps his ass in Russia.
And Nova Scotia keeps Sid

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11-22-2012, 03:36 PM
  #602
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And Nova Scotia keeps Sid
Screw that Nova Scotia is far too cool of a place for Sid. Actually as long as he keeps out of Halifax that's all I care about.

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11-22-2012, 04:07 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
But they are not separate issues. This is what I have been trying to get across to people. The players don't trust the Owners. There is a reason for that because the Owners tend to not tell the truth or just totally omit things. This is a fundamental issue not just in these negotiations but in almost all negotiations when you are dealing with the mega wealthy.

There is no trust because to be quite frank you can't trust them. They will say one thing and do another and tell you it is just business. That is why there is a lot of animosity here and pretty much all labor negotiations.
So what? Because you don't trust the owners, then everything they say is wrong? That the players deserve 57%? And the PA should have everything they want that would drive the league into insolvency?

Whether the players trust the owners or not doesn't matter. If they don't want to deal with NHL owners, then they should just play in another league with owners they do trust.

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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
One of the GMs already pointed out what the Owners think of the players and this is true for all owners of any large business. They view you as cattle. That is how you get treated as less then human. I have been personally apart of 2 large labor negotiations for 2 very large companies that locked out their employees and they viewed there employees as cattle. When a NHL gm said that I applauded because he was telling it like it is and if people can't see what is wrong with being thought of like that then I got nothing for you man.
Sign me up to be treated like NHL cattle. Million dollar guaranteed contracts. Travel, hotels, dinners.

I think you have some issues with your own personal history with labour negotiations that is skewing your viewpoint on the NHL and the PA. Realize that the NHLPA is not like any union or any job that you have any history with - unless you can say that you were earning million dollar salaries.

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11-22-2012, 05:23 PM
  #604
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So how much damage has this lockout caused already? I think a significant amount, even if they salvage some of the season (which looks more and more unlikely) this lockout has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

I have loved the Oilers for my whole life but it's reached the point where I'm jaded about the organization and the NHL more so than enthusiastic about seeing the team again. Some will scoff at this and say that I'm not a true fan, but the ugly displays by Mr. Katz, the NHL, and NHLPA in recent months has taken my NHL fan status down a notch. I am still in love with the game of hockey, but this lockout has made me think less of the top tier of professional hockey. I will still watch games and such when the NHL does come back, but they have left a wound that won't really go away as they have permanently damaged the way I view the NHL.

I will still enjoy Oilers hockey in the future, but I honestly don't think it will ever be as big a thing in my life as it once was. Partly because I'm getting older, but also partly because my perception of the league has changed quite a bit. This isn't to say the NHL of the last 20 years was some kind of saintly organization, it has just gotten to a point where the actions of the owners (especially Mr. Katz) and NHLPA have become obnoxious enough that it doesn't really make me feel like being very involved with the league anymore.

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11-22-2012, 05:30 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by jbean View Post
So how much damage has this lockout caused already? I think a significant amount, even if they salvage some of the season (which looks more and more unlikely) this lockout has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

I have loved the Oilers for my whole life but it's reached the point where I'm jaded about the organization and the NHL more so than enthusiastic about seeing the team again. Some will scoff at this and say that I'm not a true fan, but the ugly displays by Mr. Katz, the NHL, and NHLPA in recent months has taken my NHL fan status down a notch. I am still in love with the game of hockey, but this lockout has made me think less of the top tier of professional hockey. I will still watch games and such when the NHL does come back, but they have left a wound that won't really go away as they have permanently damaged the way I view the NHL.

I will still enjoy Oilers hockey in the future, but I honestly don't think it will ever be as big a thing in my life as it once was. Partly because I'm getting older, but also partly because my perception of the league has changed quite a bit. This isn't to say the NHL of the last 20 years was some kind of saintly organization, it has just gotten to a point where the actions of the owners (especially Mr. Katz) and NHLPA have become obnoxious enough that it doesn't really make me feel like being very involved with the league anymore.
NHL won't care what your view is, as long as you continue to post watch.

Chris Botta made a very solid point yesterday, everyone that is complaining and saying they are done with the NHL and won't watch anymore or buy merchandise is more than likely going to watch when the NHL comes back. If they were done with the NHL they wouldn't waste their time even posting such comments on twitter or tsn. They'd delete ever NHL person they have on twitter, get rid of their HFboards account and start doing something else.

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11-22-2012, 05:52 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
NHL won't care what your view is, as long as you continue to post watch.

Chris Botta made a very solid point yesterday, everyone that is complaining and saying they are done with the NHL and won't watch anymore or buy merchandise is more than likely going to watch when the NHL comes back. If they were done with the NHL they wouldn't waste their time even posting such comments on twitter or tsn. They'd delete ever NHL person they have on twitter, get rid of their HFboards account and start doing something else.
Well that is a great strategy, piss your customers off and they will come back in droves. What arrogance!! <--not at the reporter or you but at the rich jerks that continue to make this assumption. Most come back for the love of the game but the business of hockey is getting out of hand, the NHL and PA are playing with fire.

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11-22-2012, 05:53 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by jbean View Post
So how much damage has this lockout caused already? I think a significant amount, even if they salvage some of the season (which looks more and more unlikely) this lockout has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

I have loved the Oilers for my whole life but it's reached the point where I'm jaded about the organization and the NHL more so than enthusiastic about seeing the team again. Some will scoff at this and say that I'm not a true fan, but the ugly displays by Mr. Katz, the NHL, and NHLPA in recent months has taken my NHL fan status down a notch. I am still in love with the game of hockey, but this lockout has made me think less of the top tier of professional hockey. I will still watch games and such when the NHL does come back, but they have left a wound that won't really go away as they have permanently damaged the way I view the NHL.

I will still enjoy Oilers hockey in the future, but I honestly don't think it will ever be as big a thing in my life as it once was. Partly because I'm getting older, but also partly because my perception of the league has changed quite a bit. This isn't to say the NHL of the last 20 years was some kind of saintly organization, it has just gotten to a point where the actions of the owners (especially Mr. Katz) and NHLPA have become obnoxious enough that it doesn't really make me feel like being very involved with the league anymore.
Well put. Ditto.

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11-22-2012, 05:55 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Tedi View Post
Well that is a great strategy, piss your customers off and they will come back in droves. What arrogance!! <--not at the reporter or you but at the rich jerks that continue to make this assumption. Most come back for the love of the game but the business of hockey is getting out of hand, the NHL and PA are playing with fire.
I'm not saying people won't leave, i'm just saying the ones that are more likely to leave are the ones that already left without any noise.

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11-22-2012, 05:56 PM
  #609
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Nice to see the NHLPA start to publicly fragment. If players are openly making comments like Hamerlik to the media now, then I can only imagine what it's like behind closed doors. Watch Fehr's lenient stance on player comments in the media come back to bite him in the a$$ in the near future.

Easier to keep 30'ish owners in line than it is 700+ players anyways. Said as much over the summer as well - once we get into winter, when the paychecks aren't coming in and the trophy wives are sick of the players being around, it all becomes a matter of how quickly it all fractures to see if we get a partial season or full cancellation.

The players really had nothing to unite them over the long haul anyways. There is no salary cap to fight against, there are no evil monopolistic owners to legitimently rail against like in 94/95, they aren't mistreated or underpaid. All they have to hang their angst on is how evil Bettman is, which is nothing more than a juvenille emotional reaction to someone whose done nothing more than represent the opposing negotiating party.

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11-22-2012, 06:07 PM
  #610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Nice to see the NHLPA start to publicly fragment. If players are openly making comments like Hamerlik to the media now, then I can only imagine what it's like behind closed doors. Watch Fehr's lenient stance on player comments in the media come back to bite him in the a$$ in the near future.

Easier to keep 30'ish owners in line than it is 700+ players anyways. Said as much over the summer as well - once we get into winter, when the paychecks aren't coming in and the trophy wives are sick of the players being around, it all becomes a matter of how quickly it all fractures to see if we get a partial season or full cancellation.

The players really had nothing to unite them over the long haul anyways. There is no salary cap to fight against, there are no evil monopolistic owners to legitimently rail against like in 94/95, they aren't mistreated or underpaid. All they have to hang their angst on is how evil Bettman is, which is nothing more than a juvenille emotional reaction to someone whose done nothing more than represent the opposing negotiating party.
Well said!

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11-22-2012, 06:10 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
NHL won't care what your view is, as long as you continue to post watch.

Chris Botta made a very solid point yesterday, everyone that is complaining and saying they are done with the NHL and won't watch anymore or buy merchandise is more than likely going to watch when the NHL comes back. If they were done with the NHL they wouldn't waste their time even posting such comments on twitter or tsn. They'd delete ever NHL person they have on twitter, get rid of their HFboards account and start doing something else.
My response is that I don't really care what the NHL thinks of my level of involvement. I will watch games (probably less), I will go to games if I win tickets or have them gifted to me, I probably won't buy much merchandise maybe a t shirt every couple of years. So I would still be supporting the NHL but there was a time when it was probably the central entertainment/hobby interest in my life and those days are gone. I am not going to cut the NHL entirely out of my life out of spite, I just think that's not a smart way to live, but I certainly think a hell of a lot less of them now. Do I get my "revenge?" Not really, but if people in hardcore markets like Edmonton (arguably the most hardcore in the league) are losing faith in the NHL, then I can only imagine what people in mid level markets like San Jose, Nashville, St. Louis, Colorado, etc. are thinking. This has been a total PR disaster for the NHL and I don't really care how well the league does afterwards. I know I'm not the only one with this mindset and that is a bad thing for the NHL.

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11-22-2012, 06:12 PM
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Nice to see the NHLPA start to publicly fragment. If players are openly making comments like Hamerlik to the media now, then I can only imagine what it's like behind closed doors. Watch Fehr's lenient stance on player comments in the media come back to bite him in the a$$ in the near future.

Easier to keep 30'ish owners in line than it is 700+ players anyways. Said as much over the summer as well - once we get into winter, when the paychecks aren't coming in and the trophy wives are sick of the players being around, it all becomes a matter of how quickly it all fractures to see if we get a partial season or full cancellation.

The players really had nothing to unite them over the long haul anyways. There is no salary cap to fight against, there are no evil monopolistic owners to legitimently rail against like in 94/95, they aren't mistreated or underpaid. All they have to hang their angst on is how evil Bettman is, which is nothing more than a juvenille emotional reaction to someone whose done nothing more than represent the opposing negotiating party.
Good post!

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11-22-2012, 06:16 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Nice to see the NHLPA start to publicly fragment. If players are openly making comments like Hamerlik to the media now, then I can only imagine what it's like behind closed doors. Watch Fehr's lenient stance on player comments in the media come back to bite him in the a$$ in the near future.

Easier to keep 30'ish owners in line than it is 700+ players anyways. Said as much over the summer as well - once we get into winter, when the paychecks aren't coming in and the trophy wives are sick of the players being around, it all becomes a matter of how quickly it all fractures to see if we get a partial season or full cancellation.

The players really had nothing to unite them over the long haul anyways. There is no salary cap to fight against, there are no evil monopolistic owners to legitimently rail against like in 94/95, they aren't mistreated or underpaid. All they have to hang their angst on is how evil Bettman is, which is nothing more than a juvenille emotional reaction to someone whose done nothing more than represent the opposing negotiating party.
QFT. One of the things i find most funny of all is just how brilliant Bettman plays his role. Just look at the hatred from the players being spewed at him. All it shows is he is doing his job, protecting the owners, and the PA is breaking. The best part is he hasnt been drawn in to any of the mud throwing, he speaks as precise as possible and then leaves. Its like when you sit there and listen to someone argue against you and they get more and more irritated that you are calmly listening and replying. Its satisfying to watch them dig themselves deeper and deeper all on their own. He had a slip up where he said he felt the NHLPA never wanted to bargain to a new deal...but i see that as a legal move to create a position for later use if necessary (in court) that the PA was trying desperately to have the NHL concede and move forward the terms of an expired CBA and thus give the PA power in stating "the NHL agreed to continue under the agreement so it must not hurt their business", plus have leverage over the playoffs like Fehr proves he loves..

Roman Hamrilik is completely correct; he has been through 3 lockouts and has earned his voice. He is also correct that the idea that Cole is sacrificing for future hockey players is a farce. Last i checked the big issue was "make whole" and pretty simple contract concessions. If the players stance is the future players than sign a 10 year, drop the make whole - you were never entitled to certainty going into a new labor agreement anyways, agree to 7 yearmaximum and 5-10% variance, 50% revs. In return tell the NHL the contract rights need to stay the same.

Only then do i believe for a second that this is about the future. The last CBA lockout WAS ALL ABOUT the future and Hammer lived it and suffered. This lockout is completely unnecessary for the future. Good try though


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11-22-2012, 06:48 PM
  #614
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It's not as simple as who's right and who's wrong. The NHL is not the NFL, or the MLB, it's not even the NBA. They don't have a huge national TV deal in the US, and that's the biggest difference. The owners are greedy and they do make bad decisions because of how competitive they are. As long as there is a way to overpay players, there will always be teams that are willing to do so. The players are right to feel like they are getting screwed over here, cause they kind of are, but the problem is, they have no power in this fight. They can refuse to give in to the owners demands, but in a league where 2/3 of the teams either make no money or lose money, there is no reason for the owners to take any less than they want to. NHL players are overpaid right now, it's not their fault, if someone offers you the money, you take it. The problem is, now they are forced with either giving some of it back, or not playing and keeping their pride. The offer is not going to get much better from the owners. The players will lose no matter what, at least when it comes to this deal compared to the last, of course overall, they are far from losing. I see this lockout lasting about a year and a third, with play starting roughly Jan. 1, 2014. Ferh is tough, and he does not back down, he also doesn't care about NHL fans in the least. IMO, this is gonna get a lot uglier before it gets better.

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11-22-2012, 06:53 PM
  #615
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It's not as simple as who's right and who's wrong. The NHL is not the NFL, or the MLB, it's not even the NBA. They don't have a huge national TV deal in the US, and that's the biggest difference. The owners are greedy and they do make bad decisions because of how competitive they are. As long as there is a way to overpay players, there will always be teams that are willing to do so. The players are right to feel like they are getting screwed over here, cause they kind of are, but the problem is, they have no power in this fight. They can refuse to give in to the owners demands, but in a league where 2/3 of the teams either make no money or lose money, there is no reason for the owners to take any less than they want to. NHL players are overpaid right now, it's not their fault, if someone offers you the money, you take it. The problem is, now they are forced with either giving some of it back, or not playing and keeping their pride. The offer is not going to get much better from the owners. The players will lose no matter what, at least when it comes to this deal compared to the last, of course overall, they are far from losing. I see this lockout lasting about a year and a third, with play starting roughly Jan. 1, 2014. Ferh is tough, and he does not back down, he also doesn't care about NHL fans in the least. IMO, this is gonna get a lot uglier before it gets better.
See this argument I just really don't get. I got it more a while ago, but now, I just don't. how can you say owners over pay the players and the players have a right to be pissed off?

So the players got overpayed, now they are mad? point is it just shows the players are not being realistic. they are, as you say, to proud to admit they weren't worth it in the first place. If they really were worth it the owners would be making a lot more money. Fact is they weren't. So what gives? admit it and reajust.

the simplest way to look at it is to say if the players really were worth what they got paid. We wouldn't be having a lock out. They clearly aren't.

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11-22-2012, 06:57 PM
  #616
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Roman Hamrlik deserves a tonne of kudos and credit today. A professional athlete who realizes how good he has it... it's a strange phenomenon.

Meanwhile, you have Mr. Shawn Horcoff in the other corner, a man who has been grossly overpaid for playing garbage hockey voicing his displeasure with the NHL. It's impossible to fathom the the level of arrogance.

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11-22-2012, 07:00 PM
  #617
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QFT. One of the things i find most funny of all is just how brilliant Bettman plays his role. Just look at the hatred from the players being spewed at him. All it shows is he is doing his job, protecting the owners, and the PA is breaking. The best part is he hasnt been drawn in to any of the mud throwing, he speaks as precise as possible and then leaves. Its like when you sit there and listen to someone argue against you and they get more and more irritated that you are calmly listening and replying. Its satisfying to watch them dig themselves deeper and deeper all on their own. He had a slip up where he said he felt the NHLPA never wanted to bargain to a new deal...but i see that as a legal move to create a position for later use if necessary (in court) that the PA was trying desperately to have the NHL concede and move forward the terms of an expired CBA and thus give the PA power in stating "the NHL agreed to continue under the agreement so it must not hurt their business", plus have leverage over the playoffs like Fehr proves he loves..

Roman Hamrilik is completely correct; he has been through 3 lockouts and has earned his voice. He is also correct that the idea that Cole is sacrificing for future hockey players is a farce. Last i checked the big issue was "make whole" and pretty simple contract concessions. If the players stance is the future players than sign a 10 year, drop the make whole - you were never entitled to certainty going into a new labor agreement anyways, agree to 7 yearmaximum and 5-10% variance, 50% revs. In return tell the NHL the contract rights need to stay the same.

Only then do i believe for a second that this is about the future. The last CBA lockout WAS ALL ABOUT the future and Hammer lived it and suffered. This lockout is completely unnecessary for the future. Good try though
I don't think that anything can be more clear than the NHL is trying to ensure a future and the NHLPA as per usual is about present player entitlement. Not even benefit, but entitlement. An association still infused with Eagleson related anger and distrust that never got over that chip on shoulder tendency and can't see past their eyeballs to even know player to player what is good for them. Still some sense of free floating learned outrage about something that gets passed on and is poorly understood. As such you get the typical player nondescript comments like "Bettman is cancer" "This sucks" which is the vein mined when one has no conceptual understanding whatsoever of the issues and by players that don't care enough to even parrot association doctrine.

I think if anything the players don't bother to operate a calculator. Blind deference to Fehr causing some odd unconditional alliance. I think its maybe the Stepford trophy wives that will be the first to realize the common sense of no new cheques coming in. Most of their husbands don't have a clue.

This is the same association that fired Kelly who would've clearly avoided all this lost opportunity, revenue, and wages. The NHLPA went with the "burn the house down" guru.


Last edited by Replacement: 11-22-2012 at 07:13 PM.
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11-22-2012, 07:29 PM
  #618
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You're largely missing the point

Put every player on the street and have them negotiate with each team via an agent and see what kind of deals they end up with.

Better or worse??

That's my point the collective bargaining is for the owners benefit in professional sports.

What are the players gaining from it?
I'm not missing the point, you're not making one that stands up well to contextual scrutiny. As such your points come off as specious in nature by ignoring the obvious benefits the players do derive

To wit:

Multimillion buck annual salaries. All expenses paid, all benefits paid.

Revenue sharing

League wide salary disclosure with information on contracts being immediately available to anybody.

NHLPA mentorship in contracts and from an association that freely submits memos to players and their agents if its felt a key player negotiation is headed lowball.

Arbitration

Minimum league wide salary. (which impacts a significant amount of player contracts and not only the ones that are league minimum but those that are scraping bottom. Much like any legislated minimum wage impacts what all lower wages look like.)

Your best argument comes in the form that this specific association has become so incompetent, so misaligned, so dysfunctional that they end up firing Kelly for this in the midst of a US, and global recession.
Opting for great concessions and demands in this context.
When 50/50 would clearly suffice fine for all.

This is not time and place for hardball player association rhetoric. Virtually nobody is buying the NHLPA's line in the sand. Ultimately your argument becomes the NHLPA membership is better off without itself and its constituent membership but then what is that really saying...


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11-22-2012, 07:48 PM
  #619
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See this argument I just really don't get. I got it more a while ago, but now, I just don't. how can you say owners over pay the players and the players have a right to be pissed off?

So the players got overpayed, now they are mad? point is it just shows the players are not being realistic. they are, as you say, to proud to admit they weren't worth it in the first place. If they really were worth it the owners would be making a lot more money. Fact is they weren't. So what gives? admit it and reajust.

the simplest way to look at it is to say if the players really were worth what they got paid. We wouldn't be having a lock out. They clearly aren't.
I agree. And if the owners are greedy, paying the players what they pay them, then I guess my idea for who is greedy n this world is our to lunch. If I was being paid a couple million a year to play a game I loved, I'm not so sure that I'd be railing about "greedy" owners. As a matter of fact, I'm positive I wouldn't.

Hell, I'd shine their shoe, buy their groceries, and take their suits to the dry cleaners if they wanted me to.

EDIT: I just read your post Replacement. Good one. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

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11-22-2012, 07:51 PM
  #620
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It's funny how our captain was complaining about 20% rollback. IMHO Shawn should pay 50% of his contract back

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11-22-2012, 07:53 PM
  #621
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I don't care if the owners are rolling in money and using some of it to wipe their ass. If you want to be rich and weathy you own a business and take on the risks associated with owning one. If you want to make enough money to get by in the day to day in life you become a worker, simple as that.
Exactly
People talking about "cattle" and "slaves" are exaggerating to the extent that the point they are trying to make is nullified.
Unions are one of the biggest scourges on the modern economy. Decades ago they may have served a useful function .... these days all they accomplish is shutting down cities like Detroit, sending North American jobs to the communist Chinese, and fattening the wallets of paper pushers.
If I was an NHL owner the time for compromise would now be past. I'd set my sights on tearing the NHLPA down to the ground.

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11-22-2012, 07:57 PM
  #622
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Looks like the decertification option is gaining momentum within the PA.

Quote:
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
If decertification is option of choice...kiss season goodbye. Seems early for this move and still need to be educated on how it would work.
Quote:
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
I asked many questions about decertification while in NYC yesterday and no one could explain why it was a legit play at this point.
Good stuff. The Oilers are just about to turn a corner and we're going to lose our players thanks to the PA's greed.


Last edited by Moonlapse Vertigo: 11-22-2012 at 08:33 PM.
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11-22-2012, 08:03 PM
  #623
oilphan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oiler4ever View Post
It's funny how our captain was complaining about 20% rollback. IMHO Shawn should pay 50% of his contract back
No kidding. It is amazing that these jerks can complain about that deal when most people who don't perform simply lose their jobs.

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11-22-2012, 08:10 PM
  #624
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I am not really buying the decertification option. Do the players want to turn the NHL into the wild wild west? Because that is what could potentially happen. Toronto and Montreal trying to outbid each other over the best prospects every year. A bunch of American teams having to ice a joke of a team as they struggle to outbid the big market teams when no salary cap exists. How will pensions be handled, if at all. Guaranteed contracts? Nope that is probably gone as well. Less transparency in wages is potentially a benefit to the owners when negotiating. A huge can of worms and I'm not sure it is better for either party.

There is the potential that he league runs itself like the MLS, but there have been some lawsuits challenging its legitimacy. Wouldn't be so easy to form a single entity.

Just my opinion, but decertification benefits the upper echelon of players and the absolute best prospects. For the average player, my guess is there would be downward pressure on their wages.


Last edited by Matador: 11-22-2012 at 08:25 PM.
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11-22-2012, 08:27 PM
  #625
Moonlapse Vertigo
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Hah, at least this gave me a laugh.

Quote:
Steve Tambellini ‏@FakeOilersGM
Wait. Decertification would eliminate the entry draft? Woah woah woah... LET'S NOT GET CARRIED AWAY NHLPA

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