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Lockout thread #2: mediation done - no progress

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Old
11-17-2012, 01:45 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Bill Simmons pretty much nails it in this article:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...t-go-away-gary

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11-17-2012, 02:21 PM
  #202
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That Bill simmons article talks spends half the time talking about cable television and the importance of a national tv deal for the NHL to make big bucks. Well guess what Bill? In order to have national tv deal you have to have hockey in all markets of the US.

What a joke of an article.

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11-17-2012, 05:14 PM
  #203
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@DarrenDreger: NHL and PA expect to meet Monday night. Smaller group, but players and owners likely included.

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NYC is where NHL and NHLPA will resume talks Monday...

So much for 2 week break, this is good talking is good, i think one of the sides might have something to propose lets not get optimistic or anything though
Also report today that the flyers owner is growing tired of the lockout

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11-17-2012, 05:17 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Alberta Oilfire View Post
Is this the thread created for venting? I'm getting so sick of this, a baseball and basketball guy negotiating our game? Has any of those guys even thought about the casual fans saying forget it? Most posters on here are not casual fans but I can see lots of people saying forget it. Ughhhh this is getting ridiculous
well reporting and discussing lockout news was the idea but venting is good too

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Old
11-17-2012, 05:21 PM
  #205
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Bettman took a lot of criticism for the two week break suggestion (and rightfully so).

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11-17-2012, 05:50 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Bettman took a lot of criticism for the two week break suggestion (and rightfully so).
When the PA's negotiating has consisted of the same deal presented over and over again, I don't see how a little more time for them to think is really a bad thing.

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11-17-2012, 05:57 PM
  #207
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Well, this pretty much confirms that nothing is going to be accomplished on Monday.

Quote:
John Shannon ‏@JSportsnet
Bill Daly tells @darenmillard "Their request,their agenda".

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11-17-2012, 06:09 PM
  #208
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I'm not exactly holding my breath and expecting the players to offer a proposal that isn't an exact replica of all their previous proposals. The players have essentially offered the same thing over and over again, I'm sure Monday will be more of the same.

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:15 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
I'm not exactly holding my breath and expecting the players to offer a proposal that isn't an exact replica of all their previous proposals. The players have essentially offered the same thing over and over again, I'm sure Monday will be more of the same.
This meeting might last less than 10 min if you are right. There's a very good chance that you are

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11-17-2012, 06:18 PM
  #210
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I traveled to the future and took down some minutes from the meeting.

Quote:
Steve Fehr - You're a poop head!

Bill Daly - You're poopier!

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11-17-2012, 06:18 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadeddog View Post
I'm not exactly holding my breath and expecting the players to offer a proposal that isn't an exact replica of all their previous proposals. The players have essentially offered the same thing over and over again, I'm sure Monday will be more of the same.
I don't see any point in them initiating a meeting just to offer a slight revision of the same delinked proposals.
I have little hope that the PA will offer up anything new but i can't for the life of me figure out why they would want to meet otherwise.

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:30 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
I don't see any point in them initiating a meeting just to offer a slight revision of the same delinked proposals.
I have little hope that the PA will offer up anything new but i can't for the life of me figure out why they would want to meet otherwise.
Are the owners unilaterally opposed to delinking it with HRR? If so, why?

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11-17-2012, 06:30 PM
  #213
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This meeting is being held at te pa's request however we don't know what they are going to propose likely more of the same so no reason to get excited however we don't know what they have planned exactly I don't know but I have to think fehr will make an offered to try and bridge the gap it may seem like nothing has happened over the past couple months but that is not true they sides have move closer to each other there's still a huge hole though

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:33 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Huge for Nuge View Post
Are the owners unilaterally opposed to delinking it with HRR? If so, why?
There's more risk for them. Revenues could go down, but salaries remain up.

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11-17-2012, 06:37 PM
  #215
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To think that last month the NHL offered a proposed offer where we could've had an 82 game season(starting in November) yet Fehr and the rest of the NHLPA scoffed at that offer and stayed their course.

Now we're closer to December, and no end in sight. Normally I'd hope that everyone is taken care of in these types of situations, but the way the players and the NHLPA have acted, I kind of hope the owners offer something closer to what the NFLPA had to settle on (48-52% split).

These guys are crying poor when the minimum yearly salary for them is far more than alot of people earn in their lifetimes.

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Old
11-17-2012, 06:43 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huge for Nuge View Post
Are the owners unilaterally opposed to delinking it with HRR? If so, why?
To alleviate any risk just in case revenue goes down eventually.
I don't know why the PA is opposed to linkage considering the fact that HRR has been shooting up and would likely continue to do so if they had started the season on time and built on the momentum.

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Old
11-17-2012, 07:01 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Well, this pretty much confirms that nothing is going to be accomplished on Monday.
It depends if the PA just scheduled these to make themselves look good for wanting to get back to the table in the face of the NHL's suggestion to take a break.

At the same time, Fehr went from not knowing how to proceed to scheduling meetings in the space of a few days so perhaps there was a good deal of internal pressure to get a deal done stemming from the moratorium suggestion.

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Old
11-17-2012, 07:06 PM
  #218
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Here is the situation:

If the season is saved, revenue will bounce back and fans won't be as pissed off and will be more forgiving.

If the season is cancelled, it will be MLB-esque disaster for the league and revenue will take years to recover. You gotta think some owners go this thought process in the back of their mind. I honestly cannot see how the NHL can bounce back after losing this season like they did in 05-06.

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Old
11-17-2012, 07:48 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
Here is the situation:

If the season is saved, revenue will bounce back and fans won't be as pissed off and will be more forgiving.

If the season is cancelled, it will be MLB-esque disaster for the league and revenue will take years to recover. You gotta think some owners go this thought process in the back of their mind. I honestly cannot see how the NHL can bounce back after losing this season like they did in 05-06.
I think there's already been substantial damage to the game. Last lockout, I think most fans were more understanding of the reasons. This lockout seems to be a lockout doesn't seem to have the same rationale.

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Old
11-18-2012, 12:03 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
Bettman took a lot of criticism for the two week break suggestion (and rightfully so).
Really? Sounds like it got the PA to request a meeting.

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Old
11-18-2012, 12:18 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Nailor Hopberle View Post
I think there's already been substantial damage to the game. Last lockout, I think most fans were more understanding of the reasons. This lockout seems to be a lockout doesn't seem to have the same rationale.
For sure. Last lockout was a good thing for many fan bases because it meant we could actually compete with teams that had huge amounts of money to spend on players. As an Oilers fan I was excited at the prospect of a salary cap and changes to the game that took out all the slash and grabbing that we used to have to put up with.

This time around it seems like it's more about saving teams in crappy markets. Does the average Canadian hockey fan care about the state of sunbelt teams? Most of them probably don't, they would be happy to see those teams cut from the league. I also think with the way the economy is these days, there's no pity for these millionaires fighting over what they perceive is their fair share.

I just want to see the best hockey out there myself. I'm not going to boycott the NHL, I will happily watch the NHL whenever it returns. For now, I'm content with watching AHL games. Although I really do feel like it's on the players right now, just take the damn deal. It's the best deal out there and they'll all still be making millions. I feel like they're too entitled, like they feel the NHL owes them too much. Just do your job.

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Old
11-18-2012, 01:19 AM
  #222
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So here is where we were:

Players get 57%
Contracts are as we knew them

New offer:
Players get 50%
Contract rules make it much more difficult for players to make money, more time to reach free agency, second contract will be significantly less valuable


I fail to see what the players are getting.

Someone explain to me how this works? Because if I'm Fehr, I do not sign this. There need to be at least some concessions. He can't take this back to the PA and say this was a victory.....which is negotiating 101. Bettman put Fehr in a corner, and now we're wondering why no deal is made. Both sides need to later say they won, otherwise, nothing gets done.

Bettman needs to make concessions. This loser lawyer is a terrible human being and I hate him with all my heart. How I feel about him is not relevant though. What is relevant is that he has lead to 3 lockouts, and that he is single-handedly ruining the sport for everyone. The amount of frustration he has caused was already immense, and if he erases another year of hockey, this guy needs to be fired.

I actually want the PA to stay locked out for the year, and if that happens, stay locked out for a second year. The owners won't be strapping on skates, and let's be honest, if Crosby is not on NHL ice, they will not be able to charge the outrageous prices they already do.

If I'm a rich guy, I call a bunch of other rich guys, and I start a league. I know it sounds crazy, but I think there's money to be made here. Ok, maybe not yet, and a league is a stupid idea because it takes a lot of invested capital, but at some point you'd think you can hire these guys for some exhibition games or something? I know I'd pay to watch an All-Star game in Edmonton...

Ok vent over. I hate this entire situation.

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Old
11-18-2012, 01:45 AM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
So here is where we were:

Players get 57%
Contracts are as we knew them

New offer:
Players get 50%
Contract rules make it much more difficult for players to make money, more time to reach free agency, second contract will be significantly less valuable


I fail to see what the players are getting.

Someone explain to me how this works? Because if I'm Fehr, I do not sign this. There need to be at least some concessions. He can't take this back to the PA and say this was a victory.....which is negotiating 101. Bettman put Fehr in a corner, and now we're wondering why no deal is made. Both sides need to later say they won, otherwise, nothing gets done.

Bettman needs to make concessions. This loser lawyer is a terrible human being and I hate him with all my heart. How I feel about him is not relevant though. What is relevant is that he has lead to 3 lockouts, and that he is single-handedly ruining the sport for everyone. The amount of frustration he has caused was already immense, and if he erases another year of hockey, this guy needs to be fired.

I actually want the PA to stay locked out for the year, and if that happens, stay locked out for a second year. The owners won't be strapping on skates, and let's be honest, if Crosby is not on NHL ice, they will not be able to charge the outrageous prices they already do.

If I'm a rich guy, I call a bunch of other rich guys, and I start a league. I know it sounds crazy, but I think there's money to be made here. Ok, maybe not yet, and a league is a stupid idea because it takes a lot of invested capital, but at some point you'd think you can hire these guys for some exhibition games or something? I know I'd pay to watch an All-Star game in Edmonton...

Ok vent over. I hate this entire situation.
Okay, I have to stop you at the bolded.

The only difference on how much the players get collectively paid is based on the salary cap. It's been shown that teams will either spend to their internal cap or spend to the salary cap. That is the only thing that decides how much players get paid. When you say, "it's more difficult for them to make money" that is bull **** because the money is still being doled out. How it's spread out is irrelevant. In fact, shorter length contracts incentivizes players to produce through their whole length of contract. That part is designed so you aren't paying someone later for their work today. It's just getting rid of cap circumvention. And if you argue, "well managers could just not give those contracts out" well the one manager who does destroys parity. If they collude to not give those contracts out, then it's against the law. I dont even see why that part is an issue with these negotiations honestly.

But yeah, they lose 7% in this situation without significant returns.

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11-18-2012, 02:16 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Huge for Nuge View Post
Okay, I have to stop you at the bolded.

The only difference on how much the players get collectively paid is based on the salary cap. It's been shown that teams will either spend to their internal cap or spend to the salary cap. That is the only thing that decides how much players get paid. When you say, "it's more difficult for them to make money" that is bull **** because the money is still being doled out. How it's spread out is irrelevant. In fact, shorter length contracts incentivizes players to produce through their whole length of contract. That part is designed so you aren't paying someone later for their work today. It's just getting rid of cap circumvention. And if you argue, "well managers could just not give those contracts out" well the one manager who does destroys parity. If they collude to not give those contracts out, then it's against the law. I dont even see why that part is an issue with these negotiations honestly.

But yeah, they lose 7% in this situation without significant returns.

I guess young guys get screwed then. Those changes are clearly somewhat significant since the NHL wants them in.

The bigger point is that they are giving up without getting back, which we agree on

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Old
11-18-2012, 05:23 AM
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ales83fan View Post
So here is where we were:

Players get 57%
Contracts are as we knew them

New offer:
Players get 50%
Contract rules make it much more difficult for players to make money, more time to reach free agency, second contract will be significantly less valuable


I fail to see what the players are getting.

Someone explain to me how this works? Because if I'm Fehr, I do not sign this. There need to be at least some concessions. He can't take this back to the PA and say this was a victory.....which is negotiating 101. Bettman put Fehr in a corner, and now we're wondering why no deal is made. Both sides need to later say they won, otherwise, nothing gets done.

Bettman needs to make concessions. This loser lawyer is a terrible human being and I hate him with all my heart. How I feel about him is not relevant though. What is relevant is that he has lead to 3 lockouts, and that he is single-handedly ruining the sport for everyone. The amount of frustration he has caused was already immense, and if he erases another year of hockey, this guy needs to be fired.

I actually want the PA to stay locked out for the year, and if that happens, stay locked out for a second year. The owners won't be strapping on skates, and let's be honest, if Crosby is not on NHL ice, they will not be able to charge the outrageous prices they already do.

If I'm a rich guy, I call a bunch of other rich guys, and I start a league. I know it sounds crazy, but I think there's money to be made here. Ok, maybe not yet, and a league is a stupid idea because it takes a lot of invested capital, but at some point you'd think you can hire these guys for some exhibition games or something? I know I'd pay to watch an All-Star game in Edmonton...

Ok vent over. I hate this entire situation.
I agree, not with a bunch of rich guys starting a league lol, but with the fact that the current offer is not a good one for the pa' they do alot of giving and not much recieving at all. Something you didn't mention was the make whole provision which the owners offer to pay for most of i believe. I don't think we are that far off the problem is the owners have to do some more giving
I think 50-50 split of hrr
Owners pay for make whole
Owners get a couple of contract stuff they want like 2 year elc and ufa one year later while players keep all other contract rights like no max on contract lengths etc
I think that would be a fair deal for both and fehr and bettman can both return to their constituents saying they won the pa gets to retain was player contract right and all current contracts eventually get paid in full while the owners get to have 50-50 from day one plus a couple of the key contract changes they wanted,
Man they should put me in there to mediate

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