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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-13-2012, 01:12 PM
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Except those contracts are subject to the CBA that is in effect. The players know that and still signed them. The owners also came forth with a proposal to make sure those contracts were paid or did you ignore that one? And as far as having to pay for games not played? Which union, sports or otherwise, has ever gotten paid for time lost during and owner lockout?
When? Yes, I must have missed that? And could you possibly enlightment me of the essentials of that particular offer to which you're referring.

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11-13-2012, 01:14 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
So basically for all future CBA negotiations, all the players have to do is not sign any deal, get locked out and then get paid afterwards?

Sweet gig.
No, exactly the reverse. Basically they need to sign whatever deal the owners first offer them, or else the owners will use lockouts or whatever other means to take a bite out of what they have to pay the players.

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11-13-2012, 01:14 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
The owners are trying to take a bite out of the players from all angles. First they want to change up all previously negotiated contracts so that they pay the players less than those contracts were negotiated for. Now they don't want to pay for games the players didn't play... games that the owners themselves locked the players out and prevented them from playing. Are the owners going to accept responsibility for anything that has transpired and any of the losses they've endured as a result of the last CBA they negotiated, losing a whole Season, in order to get that agreement?
How about instead the Owners pay the players 100% of HRR generated during the games not played.

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11-13-2012, 01:15 PM
  #254
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Sounds like more communication issues. Or straight bs

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11-13-2012, 01:16 PM
  #255
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When they do return I hope the players get boo'ed out of every arena for the opening games.

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11-13-2012, 01:17 PM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
When? Yes, I must have missed that? And could you possibly enlightment of the essentials of that particular offer to which you're referring.
The make whole issue where the league ponied up $200+ only to have the PA say thats not enough.

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11-13-2012, 01:20 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
The make whole issue where the league ponied up $200+ only to have the PA say thats not enough.
Make Whole based on contracts that had been previously negotiated with the 57/43 split ??

The players were open to discussing the Make Whole offer, but didn't agree to the immediate reduction to a 50/50 split on contracts previously negotiated at the 57/43 split.

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11-13-2012, 01:20 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
Maybe its not the present dollars that's at issue?

Maybe it's about controlling the players and their opportunity to get market value for their services in any future contract?
These contract changes don't really make any difference in player compensation. Only the HRR number does.

Well, that's not entirely true. The 5% variance rule reduces escrow payouts vs what they are now.


Quote:
Because don't most if not all PA members have contracts under the old CBA that would then be made part of any 'new' CBA?
Could be wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, only 40% of the PA have contracts that continue through next season. This would mean that most do not have contracts such as you describe.


Quote:
Maybe the players are taking the long view of things?
If the players were thinking business and taking the long view of things, the late October offer (with a tweaked make-whole that Bettman said he would be receptive to) would have ended the lockout. That was the high water mark for dollars made.


Quote:
Maybe the recognize that no matter what they sign for now, the NHL will continue to bring out the Bully Club (lockout and yes I picked bully instead of billy) to get more next time around?
They can recognize this all they want--until the owners stand to lose as much as the players do through a lockout, they'll keep demanding an increased share of revenue at the end of every collective bargaining agreement.


Quote:
Maybe they believe it's time to fight and perhaps get ownership to use different negotiating tactics in the future?

Just maybe, baby, just maybe ? ? ?
At least half of the NHL teams either break even or lose money. Almost NONE of them are in a situation where the sports team is their primary income. They can withstand games not being played without batting an eyelash. The players average $3 million in losses per guy. And that's primary income.

That's the situation. Now tell me how threatening to wreck the PA ferrari into the NHL's tractor trailer is going to convince the NHL of anything other than that the ferrari and its driver are fools.

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Old
11-13-2012, 01:22 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
When they do return I hope the players get boo'ed out of every arena for the opening games.
You mean like Fehr's last victim: the MLB?

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11-13-2012, 01:23 PM
  #260
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Driving home from work I was listening to the local sports radio station, an affiliate of CBS Sports Radio Throughout the day they will have a 60 second editorial from a columnist on a current topic. Today it was John Feinstein on the NHL lockout, i'm paraphrasing but this is almost 100% identical to what he said...

"The NHL lockout is now 2 months in and the Winter Classic is already lost, the two sides did put in some long hours at the bargaining table last week but when things got tense Friday night the two sides walked away and no meetings are planned any time soon.

The NHL would have you believe that it's all because of Big Bad Don Fehr. But the truth is that MLB went head to head with Fehr and lost on every legal challenge, because while he can be difficult Fehr is fair. Meanwhile the NHL doesn't play fair, they like to play take-it-or-leave-it."


Really? This is the misinformed editorial BS that is allowed to go out to every CBS radio affiliate in the country? No wonder the majority of casual observers side with the players. I'm not saying that the NHL is the perfect bargaining partner here, but anyone who has paid the slightest bit of attention knows that they are the ones who have moved on every issue while the Fehr has stalled, stalled, stalled and submitted the same basic offer over and over.

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Old
11-13-2012, 01:24 PM
  #261
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Winnipeg has an event for the fans today --- player driven:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...-winnipeg.html

Team Ladd vs. Team Richards street hockey game at the Forks 4pm.

Bring your sticks!

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11-13-2012, 01:25 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
The owners are trying to take a bite out of the players from all angles. First they want to change up all previously negotiated contracts so that they pay the players less than those contracts were negotiated for. Now they don't want to pay for games the players didn't play... games that the owners themselves locked the players out and prevented them from playing. Are the owners going to accept responsibility for anything that has transpired and any of the losses they've endured as a result of the last CBA they negotiated, losing a whole Season, in order to get that agreement?
MoreOrr, the players previous salaries were dependant on HRR, no? If theres no HRR, there's nothing to distribute to the players, regardless who's "at fault" here.

And while we're discussing the merits of who's fault the lockout is, I don't think its fair to blame the owners simply because they have the hand on the lever. The NHLPA didn't come to negotiate until after games were cancelled. If the NHLPA crossed their arms, shook their head, and refused to sign on the dotted line before Sept 15 no matter what was offered, would you still blame the owners for the lockout? Or do you genuinely feel the NHLPA made the NHL an offer prior to Sept 15 that was worth signing?

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11-13-2012, 01:26 PM
  #263
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Rob Rossi on FAN590 Hockeycentral today (19:47 mark):

Quote:
Kypreos: Rob, when you listen to his latest comments there's a sense of frustration coming from Sid right now that we didn't even hear when he was out with a concussion.

Rossi: Yeah, and I don't necessarily think it's just frustration with the owners. Guys, one of the things I'm starting to sense is you have a lot of players when you turn the tape recorder off or you turn the digital audio device off, they ask you this question:

"Do you have any idea of what this is about?"

And like, I had some players ask me that last week. And I go, I can't answer. I don't know what this is about anymore. Because we were told that it's about math, right? We were told it's about this division of hockey revenues and percentages. But it doesn't seem to be about that anymore. And some players are wondering if this is just a fight to have a fight. And I think you have guys like Sidney - and I'm talking for him here - but I get the sense that if you talk to him away from this it's like "Are we fighting just to fight or are we fighting over an issue? And should we be more clear about that?"
HAHAHAHA there they all go, those soldiers all blithely marching in lock-step over a cliff.

Actually, that just makes me feel sad for the players.

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11-13-2012, 01:29 PM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
If the players were thinking business and taking the long view of things, the late October offer (with a tweaked make-whole that Bettman said he would be receptive to) would have ended the lockout. That was the high water mark for dollars made.
Exactly. There is no "long view" for the players. With the short length of their careers, the majority of players will never make back /barely make back the dollars lost due to the work stoppage.

Your average player would benefit from any deal that involves a pay cut of less than 18% and preserves some semblance for a season. Obviously the exact pay cut amount is a moving target as games are cancelled. If the players were only concerned with how much money they were going to have in their pocket when they retire, they would have signed the deal already. Every day they negotiate, they are losing future dollars (at the individual level).

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11-13-2012, 01:30 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Make Whole based on contracts that had been previously negotiated with the 57/43 split ??

The players were open to discussing the Make Whole offer, but didn't agree to the immediate reduction to a 50/50 split on contracts previously negotiated at the 57/43 split.
Which is why the league came back and said they would pay the portion of make whole to cover up the losses and in effect not going immediately to 50/50. After which the PA changed the goal posts and said the amount of money the league was going to pony up wasnt nearly enough and they wanted all contracts covered regardless of the duration.

The league didnt necessarily have to do this considering the contracts are subject to the CBA that is in effect but did it to try and get a deal done. What exactly have the players given up in all this since you yourself said they had been doing all the giving?

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11-13-2012, 01:32 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Rob Rossi on FAN590 Hockeycentral today (19:47 mark):



HAHAHAHA there they all go, those soldiers all blithely marching in lock-step over a cliff.

Actually, that just makes me feel sad for the players.
Well the mantra was, we just want to get paid in full for the whole lockout. Suddenly the owners give them whole and now the PA doesn't have a new message. They really need to see that Fehr is still delinked and asking for raises. Thats the reason they are sitting at home.

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Old
11-13-2012, 01:33 PM
  #267
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We all know the PA hardliners fired Kelly in 2009 and brought in Fehr for this negotiation. NHLPA are morons.

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11-13-2012, 01:35 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Rob Rossi on FAN590 Hockeycentral today (19:47 mark):



HAHAHAHA there they all go, those soldiers all blithely marching in lock-step over a cliff.

Actually, that just makes me feel sad for the players.
That's so sad. I wish there were more educated players that were willing to stand up and ask these questions publicly.

If I were a player, I'd be pushing to have a vote on the best offer available from the NHL on the Dec 1st deadline.

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11-13-2012, 01:35 PM
  #269
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They've already cancelled all of November. Give it another 2 weeks and Dec will be gone as well. This season is a wash until Fehr is overthrown.
Try a week until December is gone. They have to give players 2 days to get home from Europe and then a week camp.

Even that's pushing it. November 20th is the day December is gone.

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11-13-2012, 01:36 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Make Whole based on contracts that had been previously negotiated with the 57/43 split ??

The players were open to discussing the Make Whole offer, but didn't agree to the immediate reduction to a 50/50 split on contracts previously negotiated at the 57/43 split.
That's what make whole was for. If the PA accepted the make whole provision it would have seen all the contracts negotiated at 57% fully honored.

The players made $1.883B last year. The NHL offer would have seen them get $1.734B based on 5% growth. The difference is $148.6M

In Year 2 the difference between $1.883B and the NHL proposal is $61.9M

$148.6M + $61.9M = $210.5M

The NHL offered $211M

If you include Make Whole, the players share is greater than 50% in years 1 and 2.

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11-13-2012, 01:38 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
MoreOrr, the players previous salaries were dependant on HRR, no? If theres no HRR, there's nothing to distribute to the players, regardless who's "at fault" here.

And while we're discussing the merits of who's fault the lockout is, I don't think its fair to blame the owners simply because they have the hand on the lever. The NHLPA didn't come to negotiate until after games were cancelled. Hypothetically, if the NHLPA crossed their arms, shook their head, and refused to sign on the dotted line before Sept 15 no matter what was offered, would you still blame the owners for the lockout?
Didn't say I was blaming the owners. I'm saying that whichever way the players turn, the owners are trying to or simply taking a bite out of the players salary pie. Yes, sure, employees generally aren't paid whenever there is a lockout situation, but in many instances who benefits from that lockout situation? The owners. Yes, some teams are losing revenues (the rich ones who normally make money off those games), but many others are either saving money by not having games to pay to player, or the majority are probably breaking even (revenues lost but equally salaries cut). Do the players gain anything from the loss of games? NO! But it's either lose the salary from those games or accept an early and more severe offer from the League and lose more on that end. So,... in the end, if the players do accept to take salary reductions (though perhaps not quite as severe as the owners first purposed), the players are also faced with lost salary from games lost... Yet, the great majority here have sympathy for the owners.

Players earn a lot, no doubt, but it's the owners who have continually upped the anti, so the players have earned what the owners have negotiated to give them. The owners demands now make a mockery of all of those contract negotiations. It may be allowed under CBA fine print, but it's dirty pool.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 11-13-2012 at 01:44 PM.
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11-13-2012, 01:38 PM
  #272
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We all know the PA hardliners fired Kelly in 2009 and brought in Fehr for this negotiation. NHLPA are morons.
I agree, but I posted that because it's the first media report I've heard where it shows the players perspective in detail.

Usually we just hear that the players or owners are nervous or rumbling or something vague like that.

I guess they are being fully informed and the NHLPA is being transparents...and yet the players still don't know what the point of this fight is?

Anyways, I guess since you've made your bed you have to lie in it. NHL players are notorious for not giving two craps about their union until CBA negotiations come along....but of course by then it's too late. They're paying for that detachment now.

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11-13-2012, 01:40 PM
  #273
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Try a week until December is gone. They have to give players 2 days to get home from Europe and then a week camp.

Even that's pushing it. November 20th is the day December is gone.
Sounds about right, I think we have a week or so until December gets cancelled.

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11-13-2012, 01:40 PM
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Rob Rossi on FAN590 Hockeycentral today (19:47 mark):



HAHAHAHA there they all go, those soldiers all blithely marching in lock-step over a cliff.

Actually, that just makes me feel sad for the players.
Fehr was hired to fight. You don't bring in Donald Fehr by accident. Why would Fehr, at this point in his life, take the NHLPA job? What's in it for him? For the fight that it represents. To go up against an ownership group that willingly cancelled an entire season for the one thing Fehr dislikes the most.

He may or may not want to go for the cap, but just to go up against this particular group of owners(not all the same from 04-05, but still), it has to be the fight of all fights for a guy like Fehr.

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11-13-2012, 01:41 PM
  #275
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I agree, but I posted that because it's the first media report I've heard where it shows the players perspective in detail.

Usually we just hear that the players or owners are nervous or rumbling or something vague like that.

I guess they are being fully informed and the NHLPA is being transparents...and yet the players still don't know what the point of this fight is?

Anyways, I guess since you've made your bed you have to lie in it. NHL players are notorious for not giving two craps about their union until CBA negotiations come along....but of course by then it's too late. They're paying for that detachment now.
They would be smart to clean house and vote a president in after this is all over.

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