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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-13-2012, 10:49 PM
  #626
albator71
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No one really knows wtf is going on, I still believe we will have hockey this season, there's no way the owners and players will compromise a $3.3B industry. What we see right now is a lot of posturing by both side, it's completely normal both side are trying to get the best deal possible. A deal will get done.

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11-13-2012, 10:51 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I will cry for them but i won't cry for the Billionaires who are running the league into the ground.
BUT THE LEAFS CAN'T SURVIVE, BRO!

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11-13-2012, 10:52 PM
  #628
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Had they not accepted the salary cap, teams would have folded and without parity the NHL wouldn't be anywhere close to their current revenues. As well, the 74% would have faded in time as shown in the MLB where it's currently sitting around 45%.
Do you think that Mr. Fehr is telling this to the players, or do you think that he is giving his members a slightly different interpretation of how things would have unfolded without a cap?

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11-13-2012, 10:52 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Nobody put a gun to their head to sign.
What's your end-game that would have worked out better? It was already into the second league year when it was settled. Obviously the league was going to have to declare an impasse and unilaterally impose a CBA. Then come the scabs.

Now obviously the league way underestimated revenue in 2005-6. If they have to account for scabs (which is a disaster if they hit the ice for even one real game, I mean, are you paying Leafs/Habs money to watch scabs play hockey?), how low is estimated revenue in the unilateral CBA, what are the %'s, etc.

Or if they don't get the impasse, the whole damn thing implodes. And like I said earlier, whatever comes out of the ashes, that 18% diehard that voted against the 2005 CBA, they'll get their money, because those are the guys that have value. For the rest of them? Beyond ****ed.

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11-13-2012, 10:54 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
What's your end-game that would have worked out better? It was already into the second league year when it was settled. Obviously the league was going to have to declare an impasse and unilaterally impose a CBA. Then come the scabs.

Now obviously the league way underestimated revenue in 2005-6. If they have to account for scabs (which is a disaster if they hit the ice for even one real game, I mean, are you paying Leafs/Habs money to watch scabs play hockey?), how low is estimated revenue in the unilateral CBA, what are the %'s, etc.

Or if they don't get the impasse, the whole damn thing implodes. And like I said earlier, whatever comes out of the ashes, that 18% diehard that voted against the 2005 CBA, they'll get their money, because those are the guys that have value. For the rest of them? Beyond ****ed.
I'm pro-owner, and I'm describing how it's possible that the last the CBA could still be presented by Fehr as a screw even though the players wound up making more money.

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11-13-2012, 10:57 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
I will cry for them but i won't cry for the Billionaires who are running the league into the ground.
Yet the billionaires can likely make more money running the league into the ground then running the status quo. Can't say the same for the players. They're spitting on their gold mine but I won't cry for them if it closes because of their greed. In no economic activity can you expect to make more than comparables (NFL, NBA, MLB all being at about 50%) unless you bring something special. NHL players being at the tail end of the lot, they should actually receive less than the other leagues.

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11-13-2012, 10:57 PM
  #632
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The delinkage is just a tactic.
Fehr can want it all day but the players would sign off on a linked proposal with more money in the make whole provision.

The delinkage is equivalent to the league reversing the percentages of HRR in thier first proposal. It's absurd and well never happen.

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11-13-2012, 10:58 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
I'm pro-owner, and I'm describing how it's possible that the last the CBA could still be presented as a screw job by Fehr even though everyone made more money.
But, if you're even remotely accurate, it's impossible to present.

I think Saskin saved the league as everyone knows it. If they don't settle what comes next would have been a ****storm of epic proportions.

Of course the blowback of the coup is now we get this.

I'm not really pro anyone in this. The owners/GMs broke the last system, the league WROTE the last system and did so in such a damn lazy fashion that it broke, I absolutely despise the NHLPA office, and the players are generally uneducated and uninformed.

I don't even consider the NHLPA and the players as the same entity. It's just such a warped union.

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11-13-2012, 11:02 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
Do you think that Mr. Fehr is telling this to the players, or do you think that he is giving his members a slightly different interpretation of how things would have unfolded without a cap?
No doubt about it that Fehr isn't presenting the same picture to the players. He did sing a song about doing the same in the NHL that he did in MLB (which was spanking the owners and turning the sport into an even bigger joke).

I just can't figure out how 700 players can drink the kool aid when the writing is on the wall, as it was in 2004-2005...

Players are killing the golden goose and then they look at the fans for sympathy. They need to understand that when you have a golden goose, you cherish it as long as it lives, even if the shine wears off a bit.

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11-13-2012, 11:03 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
But, if you're even remotely accurate, it's impossible to present.

I think Saskin saved the league as everyone knows it. If they don't settle what comes next would have been a ****storm of epic proportions.

Of course the blowback of the coup is now we get this.

I'm not really pro anyone in this. The owners/GMs broke the last system, the league WROTE the last system and did so in such a damn lazy fashion that it broke, I absolutely despise the NHLPA office, and the players are generally uneducated and uninformed.

I don't even consider the NHLPA and the players as the same entity. It's just such a warped union.
It's extremely easy to present.

You point to the MLB, show how without a cap and with only 45% of revenues they still make more money than hockey players (leaving out many of the reasons why in order to bolster your argument), and then you explain why Mr. Pink, Mr. Fehr, Mr. Lindros, and Mr. Hargrove are looking after your best interests.

You then settle down to fight an ideological war which has little connection with the economic realities of the members you purportedly represent, and see if you can get a lockout to last longer than Goodenow's, which gives you bragging rights, of sorts.

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11-13-2012, 11:05 PM
  #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperUnknown View Post
No doubt about it that Fehr isn't presenting the same picture to the players. He did sing a song about doing the same in the NHL that he did in MLB (which was spanking the owners and turning the sport into an even bigger joke).

I just can't figure out how 700 players can drink the kool aid when the writing is on the wall, as it was in 2004-2005...

Players are killing the golden goose and then they look at the fans for sympathy. They need to understand that when you have a golden goose, you cherish it as long as it lives, even if the shine wears off a bit.
http://triblive.com/mobile/m/msports...ling-currently

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:05 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
The delinkage is just a tactic.
Fehr can want it all day but the players would sign off on a linked proposal with more money in the make whole provision.

The delinkage is equivalent to the league reversing the percentages of HRR in thier first proposal. It's absurd and well never happen.
If the season is cancelled, then there won't even be a make whole agreed upon next year. Next year, offer will be 50% of HRR, no make whole, same (as currently offered) contract rights. Then if players still don't sign, I think we can expect something closer to 43% of HRR with decreased contract rights*for the year after.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:06 PM
  #638
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Just to be clear, do we have any verified information that the PA still has not moved off their de-linked proposals?
I have a hard enough time believing that the PA is arguing about who should pay for the damages done by the lockout (both are responsible, both take their losses and walk away) and now you want me to think that the PA is still spewing the same non sense it was back when they made their first offer?
It's a bit much to take honestly.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:09 PM
  #639
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Just to be clear, do we have any verified information that the PA still has not moved off their de-linked proposals?
I have a hard enough time believing that the PA is arguing about who should pay for the damages done by the lockout (both are responsible, both take their losses and walk away) and now you want me to think that the PA is still spewing the same non sense it was back when they made their first offer?
It's a bit much to take honestly.
They tabled their old delinked proposal during the negotiations last week instead of responding to the leagues last proposal. So that's their last official stance.

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11-13-2012, 11:09 PM
  #640
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It's extremely easy to present.

You point to the MLB, show how without a cap and with only 45% of revenues they still make more money than hockey players (leaving out many of the reasons why in order to bolster your argument), and then you explain why Mr. Pink, Mr. Fehr, Mr. Lindros, and Mr. Hargrove are looking after your best interests.

You then settle down to fight an ideological war which has little connection with the economic realities of the members you purportedly represent, and see if you can get a lockout to last longer than Goodenow's, which gives you bragging rights, of sorts.
But I mean even the dumbest player can go google MLB revenue and see the vast difference between the two sports.

Makes you wonder where they're hiding the smart guys. Even Parros is retweeting the same garbage.

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11-13-2012, 11:17 PM
  #641
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You mean like how the owners' proposals are guaranteeing them raises?
I assume by them you're referring to the owners, which would make this statement hilarious and wrong.

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11-13-2012, 11:19 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
But I mean even the dumbest player can go google MLB revenue and see the vast difference between the two sports.

Makes you wonder where they're hiding the smart guys. Even Parros is retweeting the same garbage.
They're on the sidelines being quiet.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:22 PM
  #643
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I assume by them you're referring to the owners, which would make this statement hilarious and wrong.
Taking a larger slice of a larger pie doesn't mean you're getting more money

/Bettman economics

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11-13-2012, 11:22 PM
  #644
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They're on the sidelines being quiet.
The second they step up, this whole thing is over.

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11-13-2012, 11:23 PM
  #645
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While I appreciate McKenzie/Burnside and others trying to act like elder statesmen and point out the enormous waste and stupidity of this conflict, I'm not sure the ones that have any say are hearing them.

There probably needs to be clear voices of sanity from within to have an impact. Recchi tried only to take a shillacking.
Alan Walsh and Damien Cox are going at it hammer and tongs over Recchi's comments, Paul Kelly etc.Highly entertaining.

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11-13-2012, 11:23 PM
  #646
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But I mean even the dumbest player can go google MLB revenue and see the vast difference between the two sports.

Makes you wonder where they're hiding the smart guys. Even Parros is retweeting the same garbage.
I can't remember it being much different 2004. I assume there is a lot of group psychology involved where toeing the union line is expected and the strategy can't be questioned.

Sticking together is a strength but it can also turn into a weakness.

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11-13-2012, 11:25 PM
  #647
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The nhlpa union is costing their party a great deal of money with whatever they have tried to do. I don't see any gains from this

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11-13-2012, 11:27 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Taking a larger slice of a larger pie doesn't mean you're getting more money

/Bettman economics
It's not called a raise, at least not in terms of what a raise means.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:32 PM
  #649
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I can't remember it being much different 2004. I assume there is a lot of group psychology involved where toeing the union line is expected and the strategy can't be questioned.

Sticking together is a strength but it can also turn into a weakness.
The difference in 2004 is that the league wanted a massive, massive system overhaul. Even the concessions back to the players were a massive overhaul in their own right. The league and the mechanics of player rights/movements are vastly different now than they were in 2003.

I think even the most optimistic person had to think a season was going to be nuked. This is something that should be settled fairly easily. There's no excuse. It would just prove the ridiculous dysfunction if the NFL could do this painlessly, the NBA could get it settled eventually, and the NHL got nuked by it.

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11-13-2012, 11:38 PM
  #650
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But I mean even the dumbest player can go google MLB revenue and see the vast difference between the two sports.

Makes you wonder where they're hiding the smart guys. Even Parros is retweeting the same garbage.
In the debates on this board, it has been continually proposed that the owners are losing little during the lockout, due to the fact that the teams are toys or ego pieces. MLB owners, on the other hand, consider their teams to be primary sources of income.

Whether these assertions are true or not I can't say, but given the ability of the Pirates' owner to pocket the league RS proceeds while using an eyedropper to hand out salaries at the same time that Mr. Steinbrenner (RIP) was able to build the Yankee team into a billion dollar enterprise by business acumen and branding, I'd say that Fehr has something to refer to when talking to the NHL players.

I remember, during the pre-cap era, Brian Burke saying that it would take one phone call to move the Canucks - the situation was that fragile (apparently). Local media would rail on management for not signing such and such, and would have little regard to the economics of the sport - winning was everthing, and the owners' pockets were of little regard until they threatened to move the team.

The current BOG isn't willing to go through that era again, even with the Katz's of the world being the rule rather than the exception; they'll do a two year lockout without blinking. Some of them may not like propping up their poor cousins, but neither are their hobby teams the cogs which turns the wheel of their own business empires.

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