HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-14-2012, 07:56 AM
  #676
Aussie King
Registered User
 
Aussie King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Melbourne
Country: Australia
Posts: 996
vCash: 500
How long until Fehr pulls cap off the table?

Aussie King is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:08 AM
  #677
mikelvl
Registered User
 
mikelvl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 487
Planning ahead, how about starting a new thread for the lockout that is going to take place five years after the current one ends? We can start the argument over guaranteed contracts and a 55/45 owner/players split early in the hopes of getting it settled early

mikelvl is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:09 AM
  #678
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,057
vCash: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
Walsh needs to be brought down a peg, but I feel dirty that Cox was the one to do it.

It's like watching your ex-girlfriend get dumped by the guy who picked on you in middle school. Really hard to pick sides in that one...
It really did have a mongoose versus snake vibe about it, but Cox is trying to bring a very important point out into the light while the PA is doing their best to bury it.. The nub of it all is in this tweet and that is why Walsh is coming back , or trying to come back so hard:

Damien Cox‏@DamoSpin

Maybe instead of attacking Recchi the PA should ask guys like Ference, Stajan and Hamhuis hard questions about how Fehr hijacked the union.

pepty is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:13 AM
  #679
McRib
2nd Rate Fan
 
McRib's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,422
vCash: 500
If the league were to go to "Fehr Economics" for the NHL, I fear that we will see some owners similar to Jeffery Loria, who run a bare bones operation and collect television money and revenue sharing cash. I mean, the Marlins pay roll right now (pre arbitration) is $16M. He literally makes money doing nothing to make his team competitive (Well, he tried I guess.)

Basically, I fear for the league if Fehr and the NHLPA gets their way.

It still baffles me that we're in this mess, though.

McRib is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:14 AM
  #680
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,448
vCash: 500
I just read the Walsh/Cox exchange. I've always thought it was a tough job for anyone to make it seem like Cox has a legitimate point and knows what he's talking about and look at Walsh, he made it look so easy!

Why engage in the battle of words if you're only willing to deflect and deem things irrelevant because you can't think of good answers? Why set yourself up for failure? That's not uncommon for Walsh though. His mouth keeps flying off the handle and every time he gets cornered by a comment that he has no way to spin or he is being called on his tactics of deflections, he hits the 'block' button to end the conversation. Hey PA, you got a real good one there help fight your 'cause'. I think you guys all need to get back to your conference calls and bring these questions to the table so you can all brainstorm some nice PA friendly answers for them. Clearly you didn't give much thought to the answers you'd have to give to more hard hitting questions.

Ari91 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:18 AM
  #681
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Nah, players just are not budging one bit. Maybe if the PA submitted something different from the same old tired ****ing offer they've been sending since September.

but the players want to play!!!!

they are so pathetic, so so pathetic.
Pretty much.

If they really wanted to play, they would link the Cap to revenues to their proposal. They really think the league would risk starting a season without a CBA and risk a strike when the union head started the biggest strike in professional sports history?

"But we want to play and they don't let us! " Then offer a new proposal instead of the same bs.

HH is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:19 AM
  #682
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie King View Post
How long until Fehr pulls cap off the table?
Based on comments by Steve Fehr, it seems Don has already put the cap on the table for discussion with the players but so far, it's the players resisting and don't want to go after the cap. If the players are being met with an unrelenting ownership group when it comes to delinkage, they better damn well be in it for the long haul if they put the cap on the table and the owners decide to call their bluff. I can already picture the steam that would come out of cheapskate Jacobs ears with a no cap proposal

Ari91 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:30 AM
  #683
pepty
Registered User
 
pepty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 10,057
vCash: 492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
If the league were to go to "Fehr Economics" for the NHL, I fear that we will see some owners similar to Jeffery Loria, who run a bare bones operation and collect television money and revenue sharing cash. I mean, the Marlins pay roll right now (pre arbitration) is $16M. He literally makes money doing nothing to make his team competitive (Well, he tried I guess.)

Basically, I fear for the league if Fehr and the NHLPA gets their way.

It still baffles me that we're in this mess, though.
The NHL is a gate driven league and if that were to happen the fans would turn off fast and a number of teams would fold. A lot of players jobs would evaporate.

But imagine how happy those former players would be,in their 9 to 5 jobs knowing that they had stuck it to the owners and avenged their 2004-05 defeat-you know the one that gave them all those million dollar jobs.

pepty is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:32 AM
  #684
jamesz
Rookie User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2
vCash: 500
I've just read Sean Bergenheim's column from a finnish newspaper Urheilulehti where he says that the owners are demanding to basically strip the players from all of their rights and that the lockout will not end before the owners will change their attitude. The players have asked the owners many times why are their doing this and the only answer they have been given is that the owners think it's better that way. The players are standing united and it hasn't even been hard because the offers they have received have been so ridiculous. He also says that the players would be willing to play under the old contract, among many other things.

jamesz is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:34 AM
  #685
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Based on comments by Steve Fehr, it seems Don has already put the cap on the table for discussion with the players but so far, it's the players resisting and don't want to go after the cap. If the players are being met with an unrelenting ownership group when it comes to delinkage, they better damn well be in it for the long haul if they put the cap on the table and the owners decide to call their bluff. I can already picture the steam that would come out of cheapskate Jacobs ears with a no cap proposal
If the players attack the cap, the owners will counter by attacking guaranteed contracts.

HH is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:35 AM
  #686
HH
GO HABS GO!
 
HH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,253
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesz View Post
I've just read Sean Bergenheim's column from a finnish newspaper Urheilulehti where he says that the owners are demanding to basically strip the players from all of their rights and that the lockout will not end before the owners will change their attitude. The players have asked the owners many times why are their doing this and the only answer they have been given is that the owners think it's better that way. The players are standing united and it hasn't even been hard because the offers they have received have been so ridiculous. He also says that the players would be willing to play under the old contract, among many other things.
....

I mean, come on. Who is feeding them all this crap?

HH is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:37 AM
  #687
Scottkmlps
Moderator
 
Scottkmlps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,372
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesz View Post
I've just read Sean Bergenheim's column from a finnish newspaper Urheilulehti where he says that the owners are demanding to basically strip the players from all of their rights and that the lockout will not end before the owners will change their attitude. The players have asked the owners many times why are their doing this and the only answer they have been given is that the owners think it's better that way. The players are standing united and it hasn't even been hard because the offers they have received have been so ridiculous. He also says that the players would be willing to play under the old contract, among many other things.
Yeah, no ****, because you guys were getting 57% of HRR Sean.


Last edited by Scottkmlps: 11-14-2012 at 09:14 AM.
Scottkmlps is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:39 AM
  #688
kfan22
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 893
vCash: 500
So no meetings again today huh?? They really are trying to start the season on December 1. Everyone on the planet knows they are destroying the game with each passing day except the ones involved in negotiations Pretty sad they show no urgency

kfan22 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:43 AM
  #689
PensFanSince1989
Registered User
 
PensFanSince1989's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,716
vCash: 500
@DarrenDreger: From sickbay...players keep telling me they're optimistic a deal will get done, while owners tell me they have no confidence in that.

PensFanSince1989 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:44 AM
  #690
jeety mcjeet
Registered User
 
jeety mcjeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
The NHL is a gate driven league and if that were to happen the fans would turn off fast and a number of teams would fold. A lot of players jobs would evaporate.

But imagine how happy those former players would be,in their 9 to 5 jobs knowing that they had stuck it to the owners and avenged their 2004-05 defeat-you know the one that gave them all those million dollar jobs.
Players: Yaaahhh!..wait what? One hopes at least.

jeety mcjeet is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:45 AM
  #691
PensFanSince1989
Registered User
 
PensFanSince1989's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 9,716
vCash: 500
There's two ways to look at this IMO.

Fehr and co. are feeding the players optimism to keep them united 'just a few more weeks boys, and we'll have our deal'

Or the more optimistic route: players are optimistic because they know they will take the delinked proposal off the table soon and work within the leagues framework.

In really hoping its the later.

PensFanSince1989 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:46 AM
  #692
CerebralGenesis
Registered User
 
CerebralGenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 23,549
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
@DarrenDreger: From sickbay...players keep telling me they're optimistic a deal will get done, while owners tell me they have no confidence in that.
Huh?

Well to be fair, if the players can make their union negotiate with an offer that isn't a regurgitation of the same one 500x over, this thing could be over. So the side with the ball in their court thinks this could end soon.

CerebralGenesis is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:52 AM
  #693
mossey3535
Registered User
 
mossey3535's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
It would be dumb for the league to bash heads than to try and spark something.

Same goes with the PA but i do think December will be wiped and the PA will see if they can squeeze any more out of the owners before making the final decision whether to sit a year or not.

Preferably, i'd like to hear reports S.Fehr/Daly exchanging things away from the public eye that spark a new set of talks to try and get hockey going the start of December but that's not looking too promising right now. Hardline owners may be digging in their heels.
You know I should be tired of this but...

Show me, with MONEY, how the union expects to 'squeeze any more out of the owners'.

Show me, with MONEY, what kind of deal the owners would REALISTICALLY sign that will greatly benefit players 8 years from now.

SHow me, with MONEY, how the current players plan to recoup their losses. If you can't show me the above point, this one is pretty useless to explain.

There is no endgame.

If you start writing and there's no numbers in it, then stop. You've already failed...and shown why Fehr has failed his own union.

mossey3535 is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:54 AM
  #694
Artz19
Registered User
 
Artz19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
Country: Canada
Posts: 283
vCash: 500
Here's a major problem for Fehr.

He fights to get players contracts honored. Finally the NHL caves and offers $211M to accomplish that.

BUT, you have to think there's only a 65 game season possible now. So HRR would be reduced in the neighborhood of 20%.

He can't go back to the players and say "Great news guys! Your contracts will be honored, I managed to get you another $211M! But here's the bad news: you will be getting $346M less in HRR because of the lost games."

That's why he either wants $600M in 'make whole' or he wants the players paid for a full 82 games.

Artz19 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:55 AM
  #695
ottawah
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PensFanSince1989 View Post
Fehr and co. are feeding the players optimism to keep them united 'just a few more weeks boys, and we'll have our deal'
I think thats the case, but in my mind its totally misplaced. Fehr tried last week to demonstrate to the owners how close they are, and he could not believe they felt they were far apart. What he is not seeming to get if that his equations contains ifs, assumptions, probablies, and maybes. The league does not want that.

So Fehr may be correct in that the numbers are close, but its not the system the owners are demanding, so they are in reality close in Fehrs eyes, far apart in the owners eyes.

ottawah is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 08:59 AM
  #696
Ari91
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,448
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesz View Post
I've just read Sean Bergenheim's column from a finnish newspaper Urheilulehti where he says that the owners are demanding to basically strip the players from all of their rights and that the lockout will not end before the owners will change their attitude. The players have asked the owners many times why are their doing this and the only answer they have been given is that the owners think it's better that way. The players are standing united and it hasn't even been hard because the offers they have received have been so ridiculous. He also says that the players would be willing to play under the old contract, among many other things.
I completely understand the players desire to retain contractual rights that allow them to have some sort of say in what they do in their careers. But does the question 'why do you want to this to us' really need to be asked? All the contractual issues set by the league provide owners with the opportunity to potentially make better decisions regarding player assessment (a con for the players who are currently being paid big bucks for future potential moreso than actual results), it allows owners to hold on to players for a longer period of time giving them more power to construct their teams for the longer haul (a possible con for players if you're stuck on a crap team and have no confidence in the vision of management to turn things around aka Columbus). Most importantly it addresses the concerns the league has had regarding long term backdiving contracts which doesn't even need an explanation as to why the owners want to set rules to get that in place.

I don't disagree with him that the owners are trying to strip away or minimize a lot of the contractual rights that the players currently have, but again, it's a stupid question to ask when the answer is as obvious as the nose on their faces.

Ari91 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:05 AM
  #697
Fire Sather
Play Like a Pug
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 18,905
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to Fire Sather
PA keeps whining about contract issues.

Put a LINKED cap/revenues proposal on the table and re-buff all the owners' contract demands.

Owners will ask for some of those demands back. Work it out from there.

Fire Sather is online now  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:05 AM
  #698
CerebralGenesis
Registered User
 
CerebralGenesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 23,549
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artz19 View Post
Here's a major problem for Fehr.

He fights to get players contracts honored. Finally the NHL caves and offers $211M to accomplish that.

BUT, you have to think there's only a 65 game season possible now. So HRR would be reduced in the neighborhood of 20%.

He can't go back to the players and say "Great news guys! Your contracts will be honored, I managed to get you another $211M! But here's the bad news: you will be getting $346M less in HRR because of the lost games."

That's why he either wants $600M in 'make whole' or he wants the players paid for a full 82 games.
Then he will lose 82 games worth of salary for his players. I'm excited to see how long it takes them this time to overthrow their union boss and bring in another hardlined guy who doesn't negotiate.

CerebralGenesis is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:06 AM
  #699
JMT21
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 807
vCash: 500
I can't fathom the players' following Fehr down the "no cap" road. With a current floor of 48M it ensures the players on average get 2M + in salary. Eliminate the cap and watch salaries for at least 1/3rd of the teams plummet. Some teams may drop their payroll well under 40M which will allow some teams to make a profit on the backs of the players. Not too mention that guaranteed contracts would likely be a thing of the past.

Were guaranteed contracts always part of process or was it "won" in a previous CBA?

I'd like to believe the players are at the very least smart enough not to follow Fehr on that.

If the season is lost I'm wagering 3.3B in annual future league revenues may be very difficult. No wonder they PA wants salaries de-linked.

15 years with no Jets hockey... one year of heaven.... and now this.

JMT21 is offline  
Old
11-14-2012, 09:13 AM
  #700
Lundmark17
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 318
vCash: 500
A few thoughts/questions

- Why is everyone saying the NHL is proposing to lengthen ELCs to 5 years? I thought after proposal 1 that they then wanted them to be 2 years did I miss something?

- I suppose I know "why" but why does the Nhlpa want a guarenteed % raise for this season? Is that not what they did by increasing the cap this summer artificially?

Lundmark17 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.