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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-14-2012, 11:10 AM
  #776
moosehead81
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
They are gaining 50% of HRR, a salary floor, increased revenue sharing, guaranteed contracts, per diems, etc etc etc. The owners are gaining 50% of the revenue, a salary cap, increased revenue sharing, and contract limits.

The players won't have a place to play if the NHL can't afford to a lose a season and Fehr hardlines.
League collapses, contracts become moot, many North American players migrate to a whole number of other professional leagues where, although they won't make the kind of money they did in the NHL, they'll still make a pretty good living doing the work they love. Just the opposite of European players coming to work in North America. How many are there now, or planning to soon go if talks totally collapse- 30% or more?

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11-14-2012, 11:11 AM
  #777
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
League collapses, contracts become moot, many North American players migrate to a whole number of other professional leagues where, although they won't make the kind of money they did in the NHL, they'll still make a pretty good living doing the work they love. Just the opposite of European players coming to work in North America. How many are there now, or planning to soon go if talks totally collapse- 30% or more?
How many players want to do that?

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11-14-2012, 11:12 AM
  #778
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Its amazing how pro-NHL owner this board is. Sad. Very sad.
I chock it up to plain jealousy.

The players make millions to "play a game", so they should be happy with whatever they get, seems to be the stance of most posters.

Also, it is very easy for internet philanthropists to give up money & contract rights they don't have.

Also, people are demanding and impatient. It is like fans think they deserve to watch NHL hockey. Like they are owed something by the players and/or owners.

Its an instant gratification society.

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11-14-2012, 11:13 AM
  #779
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
They are gaining 50% of HRR, a salary floor, increased revenue sharing, guaranteed contracts, per diems, etc etc etc. The owners are gaining 50% of the revenue, a salary cap, increased revenue sharing, and contract limits.

The players won't have a place to play if the NHL can't afford to a lose a season and Fehr hardlines.
Excellent post. I wished more people would look at it the way you do.

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11-14-2012, 11:13 AM
  #780
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Originally Posted by jamesz View Post
The last time we gave up alot. We lost an entire season
On a pointless exercise to try and avoid a cap. Honestly, the reason you lost a year of salary is entirely on the players.

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rookie contracts would be longer.
I thought the league wanted them shorter .....

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In addition the NHL suggested that longer than 1 year contracts, can only include a 5% raise to the next season. This means that if the team has enough room in their salary cap that they can offer 1 million from the first season, and 2 million from the second, they can't do that. Even though the team would feel that the player is worth 1,5 million. Because the maximum raise that the team can do to a player under contract is 5% per year.
OK, obviously he has no idea how the previous cap worked, so I think everything he says must be taken with a grain of salt. Salary does not equal cap hit. Under the old or new system if a team felt a player was worth 1.5M a year, he can pay that if he has 1.5M in salary cap space.

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The NHL made about 3,3 billion dollars last year.
Actually the number is about 125M, but that may be a translation thing.


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One thing in the negotiations has been, that we agree, who pays the damages this will cost - and how. This is not they players lockout, it's the owners.

OK, and then ask how much the players paid for damages during their strike? Maybe the baseball strike?

Nope, only hear crickets.

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11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
  #781
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
How many players want to do that?
Gievn a total collapse of the NHL, how many do you think? Probably 60% or more could find new jobs over there; the other 40% could find some employment here. Obviously there'd be about 700 current professional hockey players without a job but it's a free market enterprise.

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11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
I hope if does spill into next season then it ends with Fehr getting a US court to end the lockout charging the NHL owners with unfair labor practices. The judge reinstates the 2005 CBA and orders NHL camps to open. That's the 1994 strike ended. This is the owners lockout. The MLB owners wised up and they have never had anymore labor issues. 3 straight CBAs with losing a game. Just like the NHL owners.

Next time the owners will keep grabbing for more and more. Might be time to break that vicious cycle.
Hahaha hahahah yes lets start a season without a CBA against Don Fehr. hahaha good one bro.

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11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
Also, it is very easy for internet philanthropists to give up money & contract rights they don't have.
The players don't have them either. They're currently to be bargained upon to determine who gets them.

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11-14-2012, 11:15 AM
  #784
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
I chock it up to plain jealousy.

The players make millions to "play a game", so they should be happy with whatever they get, seems to be the stance of most posters.

Also, it is very easy for internet philanthropists to give up money & contract rights they don't have.
so it makes sense to side with the billionaires? yeah your post makes perfect sense.

or maybe people who are pro owners are actually pro healthy league, and can see that if the players get there way with the de linked proposals it will mean the majority of the nhl teams will continue to lose money year in year out, and oh look we will be back to the lockout where the nhl tries to fix the bleeding.

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11-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
I chock it up to plain jealousy.

The players make millions to "play a game", so they should be happy with whatever they get, seems to be the stance of most posters.

Also, it is very easy for internet philanthropists to give up money & contract rights they don't have.
I chock it up to economic ignorance.

Not only economic but negotiations and history. They think that the last time was "worth it" and their union head constantly trolls the league by delaying talks and not negotiating.

Then they say that the game will grow at 7% every year because it did a several years back so give us raises equitable to that instead of giving us any part of the risk in the future. What business man will agree to bare all of the new risk so their employee can enjoy more and more from future guaranteed raises?

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11-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #786
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
I chock it up to plain jealousy.

The players make millions to "play a game", so they should be happy with whatever they get, seems to be the stance of most posters.

Also, it is very easy for internet philanthropists to give up money & contract rights they don't have.
I chalk it up to many here understanding the world of business. Business owners will not operate a business at a loss forever. It doesn't matter how much money they have in the bank.

It's very easy for union sympathizers to expect wealthy people to hand over their money just because they have it.

The players are compensated very well for the services they provide. I see no reason that the owners should be expected to operate a hockey franchise at a loss.

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11-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Fehr is trying to minimize the damage. What are the players gaining in this CBA?

A deal that guarantees them the highest percentage of revenues of the 4 majors sports league. How can anyone call that unfair given its the weaker sister of the 4 .....

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11-14-2012, 11:17 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Gievn a total collapse of the NHL, how many do you think? Probably 60% or more could find new jobs over there; the other 40% could find some employment here. Obviously there'd be about 700 current professional hockey players without a job but it's a free market enterprise.
How many would prefer that over acquiescing to actually negotiating? That's how I should have phrased it.

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11-14-2012, 11:17 AM
  #789
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
From sickbay...players keep telling me they're optimistic a deal will get done, while owners tell me they have no confidence in that.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite
6m Gord Miller ‏@GMillerTSN

@DarrenDreger I spoke with an NHL exec who thinks that this dispute will wipe out this season, and continue into the start of next season.
Expand
1m Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

@GMillerTSN. Yes. I've been told the same. However, players don't buy it.



lolol players will get a dose of reality soon.
This tells me that the players think that the owners will cave and soon. Boy, are they in for a rude awakening. I don't know what BS Fehr is feeding them but they are fighting a losing battle and the sooner they realize that the better. However, based on these comments, it seems that they will realize it too late then years from now, they will be telling future PA members that they should take the deal like Recchi, Jagr and others are saying now.
It doesn't make it right and i do feel for the players in a way but it's an owners league, they will never "win" these CBA battles. Hiring a bull like Fehr will wind up being a big mistake since they won't only be losing a ton of money this season but they will also end up with a worse deal the longer they wait.

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11-14-2012, 11:19 AM
  #790
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
He could try that, but that would take a much longer time than simply coming to a deal. And there's no promise that the judge would reinstate a 2005 CBA. I don't know if a judge could do that in the NHL
Quote:
N.H.L. fans seemed to dread Fehrís arrival on the hockey scene in 2009, when he was asked to repair a players union torn by internal squabbling after accepting a 24 percent pay cut and a salary cap in the 2004-5 lockout. The union had gone through four leaders in four years. Like many baseball fans, hockey fans saw Fehr as responsible for the strike that canceled the 1994 World Series.

But what is often forgotten is that the strike ended by court order, when Judge Sonia Sotomayor ruled that the owners had engaged in unfair labor practices. The old contract was reinstated and, legally at least, Fehr and the union were vindicated.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/sp...anted=all&_r=0

The 1995 season was played under the previous/existing CBA. A new CBA was struck in 1996.

Fehr has said the players are willing to play under the terms of the previous/existing 2005 CBA for a reason

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11-14-2012, 11:20 AM
  #791
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How many players want to do that?
Exactly! That might be a temp solution for some in order to keep the paychecks flowing but no way in hell the majority of players see that or want that as permanent. Most have families they do not want to uproot. Besides, people seem to forget thta it's only a small percentage of NHLers who would actually find jobs, mostly those who really don't need to play again because they've already made their millions. Most of those leagues are not made up of beer league players. I would say at least 50% of current NHLers would have a hard time finding work in other leagues, if not more.

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11-14-2012, 11:22 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
I chock it up to plain jealousy.

The players make millions to "play a game", so they should be happy with whatever they get, seems to be the stance of most posters.

Also, it is very easy for internet philanthropists to give up money & contract rights they don't have.

Also, people are demanding and impatient. It is like fans think they deserve to watch NHL hockey. Like they are owed something by the players and/or owners.

Its an instant gratification society.
the jealousy claim again?...

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11-14-2012, 11:22 AM
  #793
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Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
I chock it up to plain jealousy.

The players make millions to "play a game", so they should be happy with whatever they get, seems to be the stance of most posters.

Also, it is very easy for internet philanthropists to give up money & contract rights they don't have.
People here recognize that the owners aren't asking for anything out of line. Look at the other leagues deals and you will realize this. I don't believe for a second that the players would be willing to go to 45% to get baseball's deal. It stands to reason that 50% of the money in the pot is better than 45%. You can dismiss it to jealousy if you want but it doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. With that said HOW the players negotiate to get to a point that is in line with other sports is completely in their interest and I don't blame them for wanting a soft landing. I don't think it's fair for the owners to immediately want 50/50.

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11-14-2012, 11:23 AM
  #794
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/sp...anted=all&_r=0

The 1995 season was played under the previous/existing CBA. A new CBA was struck in 1996.

Fehr has said the players are willing to play under the terms of the previous/existing 2005 CBA for a reason
Without knowing what those unfair practices and have the NHL engaged in anything of the sort, it is hard to say if the courts would do the same for the NHL.

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11-14-2012, 11:23 AM
  #795
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I can't fathom the players' following Fehr down the "no cap" road. With a current floor of 48M it ensures the players on average get 2M + in salary. Eliminate the cap and watch salaries for at least 1/3rd of the teams plummet. Some teams may drop their payroll well under 40M which will allow some teams to make a profit on the backs of the players. Not too mention that guaranteed contracts would likely be a thing of the past.

Were guaranteed contracts always part of process or was it "won" in a previous CBA?

I'd like to believe the players are at the very least smart enough not to follow Fehr on that.

If the season is lost I'm wagering 3.3B in annual future league revenues may be very difficult. No wonder they PA wants salaries de-linked.

15 years with no Jets hockey... one year of heaven.... and now this.
He could propose removing the cap but keeping the floor. I think it would be a asinine proposal (would kill several teams and many NHLPA jobs) and the owners would reject it out of hand, but the two (cap, and floor) do not have to be tied together.

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11-14-2012, 11:25 AM
  #796
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/sp...anted=all&_r=0

The 1995 season was played under the previous/existing CBA. A new CBA was struck in 1996.

Fehr has said the players are willing to play under the terms of the previous/existing 2005 CBA for a reason
A strike is different than a lockout, as so many PA fans so adamantly state. I don't know how that would affect it. And that would take time to do in court, costing the players more money. Not to mention that there were differences between how the two leagues were run, so we'd have to see what would happen in court. kdb would be better at this than me, I'll leave it to him if he wants to address it.

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11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
  #797
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I've just started reading this, and am not sure it belongs here, but here's piece written for the Denver Law journal about Fehr and his role with the NHLPA.

Law Journal

It's interesting
Ahhh, now I understand. Fehr needs to make his own mark after living in Marvin Miller's shadow. Very interesting.

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11-14-2012, 11:27 AM
  #798
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Exactly! That might be a temp solution for some in order to keep the paychecks flowing but no way in hell the majority of players see that or want that as permanent. Most have families they do not want to uproot. Besides, people seem to forget thta it's only a small percentage of NHLers who would actually find jobs, mostly those who really don't need to play again because they've already made their millions. Most of those leagues are not made up of beer league players. I would say at least 50% of current NHLers would have a hard time finding work in other leagues, if not more.
Well I said it'd be closer to 60% or more would find well paying (probably relative to what you and I make) jobs elsewhere. Like anything else, you'll go where your skills are best compensated. But what does it matter? If it comes to that, then both the NHL (and its little Napoleon) and its PA have totally screwed up and it'll take years to re-establish a "new" NHL, likely with fewer teams in places that'll support them. Maybe, when one thinks about it, that might be the end-game of this whole fiasco.

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11-14-2012, 11:29 AM
  #799
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/sp...anted=all&_r=0

The 1995 season was played under the previous/existing CBA. A new CBA was struck in 1996.

Fehr has said the players are willing to play under the terms of the previous/existing 2005 CBA for a reason
mlb had also been caught in another court battle just months prior to that with collusion.

this time around i could see fehr getting laughed out of the court room if he tried that now. for 1 the league is proposing and negotiating off of the old cba (just changing things), while the nhlpa are presenting new and completely different proposals. both would work against fehr in that type of case.

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11-14-2012, 11:29 AM
  #800
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Originally Posted by CupofOil View Post
This tells me that the players think that the owners will cave and soon. Boy, are they in for a rude awakening. I don't know what BS Fehr is feeding them but they are fighting a losing battle and the sooner they realize that the better. However, based on these comments, it seems that they will realize it too late then years from now, they will be telling future PA members that they should take the deal like Recchi, Jagr and others are saying now.
It doesn't make it right and i do feel for the players in a way but it's an owners league, they will never "win" these CBA battles. Hiring a bull like Fehr will wind up being a big mistake since they won't only be losing a ton of money this season but they will also end up with a worse deal the longer they wait.

Fehr is telling them the end is near. The owners are about to give in. Stay strong and we will get everything we wanted.

He has to tell them that or else he is going the route of Kelly.

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