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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:30 PM
  #801
ottawah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
Without knowing what those unfair practices and have the NHL engaged in anything of the sort, it is hard to say if the courts would do the same for the NHL.
I seem to remember the claim was that the owners had unilaterally imposed rules/conditions in the 93 season (in which there was no cba) and they had no right to do that while negotiations were ongoing. Fehr himself claimed that was the reason for the strike (as opposed to pressuring owners).

I do not think the NHL is in the same boat in this case as they chose the safest way out, a lockout.

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11-14-2012, 12:32 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Fehr is telling them the end is near. The owners are about to give in. Stay strong and we will get everything we wanted.

He has to tell them that or else he is going the route of Kelly.
Do you have any links / news stories where Fehr is suggesting the end is near? I just find this hard to believe.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:32 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Well I said it'd be closer to 60% or more would find well paying (probably relative to what you and I make) jobs elsewhere. Like anything else, you'll go where your skills are best compensated. But what does it matter? If it comes to that, then both the NHL (and its little Napoleon) and its PA have totally screwed up and it'll take years to re-establish a "new" NHL, likely with fewer teams in places that'll support them. Maybe, when one thinks about it, that might be the end-game of this whole fiasco.
True. A fiasco is exactly what that would be. How many jobs would that eliminate for the players? Do the players even know what the hell they're doing? This Fehr has completely run the players train of it's tracks. I can't believe more players aren't speaking out about what is happening. Do they actually believe the owners are going to cave and all of a sudden say "hey, you called our bluff. Where do we sign?" Give your heads a shake, players!!

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11-14-2012, 12:32 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
Thanks for this WO. Gives me something to read on the treadmill later. My comments will follow.
No prob, there' a lot on MLB history in there, but Fehr starts in around page 29.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:34 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by HarryHabs View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
From sickbay...players keep telling me they're optimistic a deal will get done, while owners tell me they have no confidence in that.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite
6m Gord Miller ‏@GMillerTSN

@DarrenDreger I spoke with an NHL exec who thinks that this dispute will wipe out this season, and continue into the start of next season.
Expand
1m Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

@GMillerTSN. Yes. I've been told the same. However, players don't buy it.



lolol players will get a dose of reality soon.
Small dose within a week when Dec ic cancelled, and a massive does in late Dec or Early Jan when the season gets wiped out.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:37 PM
  #806
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Originally Posted by IBleedUnionBlue View Post
Do you have any links / news stories where Fehr is suggesting the end is near? I just find this hard to believe.
Yes... I have links to the interior meetings of the NHLPA....

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:38 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/22/sp...anted=all&_r=0

The 1995 season was played under the previous/existing CBA. A new CBA was struck in 1996.

Fehr has said the players are willing to play under the terms of the previous/existing 2005 CBA for a reason
That is an indication that Fehr is no deal maker. He never did negotiate a deal to end the strike . He either has some goal way out over the horizon or just get so lost in the battle and saying no that he doesn't really have an end point in mind and is oblivious to the damage being done to the league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Ahhh, now I understand. Fehr needs to make his own mark after living in Marvin Miller's shadow. Very interesting.
This is Fehr's real motivation. it has nothing to do with the players getting a reasonable deal much less the health of the league.

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11-14-2012, 12:38 PM
  #808
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The NHL has to move on these contracting issues. Just keep the free agent age the same, I bet that would get the players back to the table.

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11-14-2012, 12:38 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
Well I said it'd be closer to 60% or more would find well paying (probably relative to what you and I make) jobs elsewhere. Like anything else, you'll go where your skills are best compensated. But what does it matter? If it comes to that, then both the NHL (and its little Napoleon) and its PA have totally screwed up and it'll take years to re-establish a "new" NHL, likely with fewer teams in places that'll support them. Maybe, when one thinks about it, that might be the end-game of this whole fiasco.
Yet the "new" NHL may have owners in a better financial position than they are right now. Obviously though, the players would be in a worst financial position.

When you think about that, who should cut its losses and profit from a new CBA, even if there is a bit less shine for them than before?

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11-14-2012, 12:42 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
The NHL has to move on these contracting issues. Just keep the free agent age the same, I bet that would get the players back to the table.
I've said this to anyone that would listen...The players should accept their reasonable make whole (which IMO is a great offer) and the NHL won't give a **** about most of those contractual stuff. Deal.

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11-14-2012, 12:42 PM
  #811
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I am slowly starting to anticipate (not joyfully) the stories that will come out in a couple years (or sooner) about former NHL players who are scraping by to find lower level assistant coaching jobs, selling real estate or otherwise drifting into nothingness. The 3rd, 4th and many 2nd liners who don't have the megadeals or who haven't socked away what -should- be money they could sustain themselves for many years, will be hurting very soon.

Unknown to me - what is the NHL pension plan? Is it healthy and generous after just a few years of service? Or are these guys really, really screwed?

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:44 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
A deal that guarantees them the highest percentage of revenues of the 4 majors sports league. How can anyone call that unfair given its the weaker sister of the 4 .....
The NHL will get their 50%/50%. It might not be in the first year or two of the CBA. Bettman will get his 50/50 for most of the CBA.

Its the other stuff. Players giving back on the contract issues. The NHL already has the most restrictive system in any of the pro sports. The rules were in place for teams to act more responsibly but some teams did not use the tools given to them. Don't sign Jeff Skinner to a long term extension when he still has 1 year left on entry level and is 2 years away from salary arbitration. Is moving arbitration back 1 year and free agency back 1 year going to make teams smarter re-signing their players? No.

The PA should agree to restrictions on contract length/frontloading/5% increments. The owners can't control themselves. The NHL owners handed out these contracts. The PA has to help the owners control themselves.

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11-14-2012, 12:44 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by CerebralGenesis View Post
It's funny Bergenheim uses the term "blinded by greed" and "fantasy land" because I think that is a good summation of his whole article.
I laughed out loud. I started reading the post you're referring to then when I noticed how long it was a I skimmed to the conclusion. When I read terms like "blinded by greed" and "fantasy land" I knew it wasn't worth reading anything in between the beggining and end.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:49 PM
  #814
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Wow...

So reading that law article.

Fehr basically came in, refused the Executive Directors role, changed the NHLPAs constitution to give the Executive Director more power over the Executive Board then accepted the role of Executive Director.

The players honestly can't see a problem with this?

You let the man take COMPLETE control over their Union.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:50 PM
  #815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NHL will get their 50%/50%. It might not be in the first year or two of the CBA. Bettman will get his 50/50 for most of the CBA.

Its the other stuff. Players giving back on the contract issues. The NHL already has the most restrictive system in any of the pro sports. The rules were in place for teams to act more responsibly but some teams did not use the tools given to them. Don't sign Jeff Skinner to a long term extension when he still has 1 year left on entry level and is 2 years away from salary arbitration. Is moving arbitration back 1 year and free agency back 1 year going to make teams smarter re-signing their players? No.

The PA should agree to restrictions on contract length/frontloading/5% increments. The owners can't control themselves. The NHL owners handed out these contracts. The PA has to help the owners control themselves.
how can the nhl have the most restrictive rules to signing players? they had no rules, other then 1 player cannot take up more then 20% of a teams cap.

why do people always brings up the super stars of the leagues when asking about ufa and arbitration. this has nothing to do with the super stars of the league, it has to do with players that have shown signs of improvement, that just haven't been able to put together a string of seasons, or they just had 1 good season, which just happened to be on the final year of there elc (evander kane, who is now making 5 million a year because he scored 30 goals in his final year of his contract), the jets are basically hoping and praying that kanes good year isn't just a fluke because they had to pay for potential.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:52 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
The NHL has to move on these contracting issues. Just keep the free agent age the same, I bet that would get the players back to the table.
I think the league will move when they have to (or want to) but they seem to be waiting for something from the PA. I have no idea what it is but it will be interesting to find out.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:53 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Wow...

So reading that law article.

Fehr basically came in, refused the Executive Directors role, changed the NHLPAs constitution to give the Executive Director more power over the Executive Board then accepted the role of Executive Director.

The players honestly can't see a problem with this?

You let the man take COMPLETE control over their Union.
Hockey players are not the smartest bunch. They are blind by greed and dislike towards the owners and Bettman. Makes for a bad mix.

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11-14-2012, 12:54 PM
  #818
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Fehr was named acting exec director in 1983 and exec director 2 years later. Fehr did settle the 2 day MLB strike in 1985. Fehr did settle a MLB lockout in 1990. Fehr negotiated CBAs in 1997,2002 and 2006. No games lost.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...rk_stopppages/

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:55 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
I think the league will move when they have to (or want to) but they seem to be waiting for something from the PA. I have no idea what it is but it will be interesting to find out.
Probably waiting on linkage, lol.

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Old
11-14-2012, 12:56 PM
  #820
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Hockey players are not the smartest bunch. They are blind by greed and dislike towards the owners and Bettman. Makes for a bad mix.
These are important words in all of this. This is a needless conflict fought by two sides experiencing a perfect storm of issues, motivations and pathologies.

If this happened in a normally functioning workplace my hunch is that everyone would be fired. Or the company would collapse.

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Old
11-14-2012, 01:02 PM
  #821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Wow...

So reading that law article.

Fehr basically came in, refused the Executive Directors role, changed the NHLPAs constitution to give the Executive Director more power over the Executive Board then accepted the role of Executive Director.

The players honestly can't see a problem with this?

You let the man take COMPLETE control over their Union.
Thatis why Damein Cox twittereed this:

Damien Cox‏@DamoSpin

Maybe instead of attacking Recchi the PA should ask guys like Ference, Stajan and Hamhuis hard questions about how Fehr hijacked the union.


The PA mouthpiece Alan Walsh stormed in and was obliterated in short order by Cox.

The question Cox wanted answered is why the report on the Kelly mugging has never been released with the implication that it would not be flattering to Donald Fehr.

The PA as it is now is the result of the Goodeneow /Fehr faction hijacking it in the middle of the night when most players were sleeping and rigging the structure of the union so that it is virtually impossible to call them to account.

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11-14-2012, 01:03 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by Mike Jones View Post
I think the league will move when they have to (or want to) but they seem to be waiting for something from the PA. I have no idea what it is but it will be interesting to find out.
Maybe they're just waiting for tomorrow and the next paycheck for the players ...

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11-14-2012, 01:03 PM
  #823
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Originally Posted by marcel snapshot View Post
Couldn't agree more. It's really surprising to me the degree to which people here just look past the fact that Gary Bettman's only strategy in 3 out of 3 hockey labor negotiations has been to shut down the NHL and cancel, in the aggregate, thousands of games. He has 1 tool in his toolbox, and he uses it every time. There's no other sports commissioner (individually or combined) that has anywhere near that sort of track record. And yet people here somehow put this all on player greed.
I was more on the players side until I found out that Fehr refused to negotiate until September. The league had tried to start long before but PA would not come to the table. I honestly think it has more to do with the hate for Fehr, than the love for Bettman. Bettman just happens to be the lesser of two evils at this point.

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11-14-2012, 01:04 PM
  #824
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
I laughed out loud. I started reading the post you're referring to then when I noticed how long it was a I skimmed to the conclusion. When I read terms like "blinded by greed" and "fantasy land" I knew it wasn't worth reading anything in between the beggining and end.
Did the exact same thing.

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11-14-2012, 01:06 PM
  #825
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Originally Posted by Hanklite View Post
Wow...

So reading that law article.

Fehr basically came in, refused the Executive Directors role, changed the NHLPAs constitution to give the Executive Director more power over the Executive Board then accepted the role of Executive Director.

The players honestly can't see a problem with this?

You let the man take COMPLETE control over their Union.
What did Gary do after the first lockout?

Quote:
To make sure the disunity of 1994-95 did not happen again, Bettman engineered a change in the voting rules: if he was against a settlement, he could be overruled only by a vote of three-quarters of the owners. And he was given the power to fine any owner or team official as much as $1 million for divulging internal league matters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sp...0vLp5I8ZhYZE9Q

Gary needs just 8 owners to turn down a deal not supported by him. Screw the 15-20 teams which want to play.

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