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We'll Meet Again, Don't Know Where, Don't Know When (CBA/Lockout) XXVII

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:02 AM
  #126
Cmoneyflyguy
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Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull

Daly tells Phila Inquirer sides r "very far apart. The players are asking for guaranteed dollars + a 'raise' year-over-year." #NHL #NHLPA

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11-13-2012, 11:03 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by tbcwpg View Post
I'm not saying that the percentage isn't accurate based on a full season. I'm saying that Fehr and the PA have never expected to be paid for a full season. They want to work on a deal based off full season numbers and then it would be pro-rated - ie. a 1.75% increase on whatever the pro-rated amount is. I don't agree that should be the final deal (I'm in favour of owner funded Make Whole), but that's their argument.

"Fehr said the players are seeking $1.883-billion but only an additional 1.75 per cent per year, which would be compounded over the length of the agreement. He said the union was not actually looking for this amount this season, it just wanted to establish it as part of a new economic system. Once that was done, the player salaries would be pro-rated for this season to account for any lost revenue because of a lockout-shortened schedule."

From this article from the Globe and Mail from Nov 9

So what did Steve Fehr mean yesterday when he said one of the issues was still who pays for what if season is shortened? What is there to pay for?

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11-13-2012, 11:05 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull

Daly tells Phila Inquirer sides r "very far apart. The players are asking for guaranteed dollars + a 'raise' year-over-year." #NHL #NHLPA
I thought they pretty much agreed to a 50/50 split with linkage and were haggling over the make whole. Of course, there is the New York Times article that seems to think they agreed on the make whole as well. So much conflicting news, although Daly is as close to the horse's mouth as we can get. If Daly speaks the truth, we're likely losing the season.

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11-13-2012, 11:07 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheed36 View Post
So what did Steve Fehr mean yesterday when he said one of the issues was still who pays for what if season is shortened? What is there to pay for?
I supposed he could be referrring to lost revenue from fan apathy going forward past this season. ie de-linkage to protect from a genuine revenue decrease.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:07 AM
  #130
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a deal will be struck by saturday the latest
Yeeahhh....good luck with that.

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11-13-2012, 11:08 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Perhaps because public favor was already their way because of the PAs refusal to meet at anytime over the course of the last year? Or maybe because the PA dragged its feet once it began receiving proposals?
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Originally Posted by Crease View Post
People are free to interpret the events any way they wish.

I personally feel Bettman and Fehr are very good at what they do, despite all the backlash they recieve.
You mean good at what they do under the assumption that the fans will come back after the lockout is over. If there is measurable fan backlash after the lockout people looking back will call their actions reckless and childish.

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11-13-2012, 11:09 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Brick City View Post
I thought they pretty much agreed to a 50/50 split with linkage and were haggling over the make whole. Of course, there is the New York Times article that seems to think they agreed on the make whole as well. So much conflicting news, although Daly is as close to the horse's mouth as we can get. If Daly speaks the truth, we're likely losing the season.
It's just getting worse, there's no hope for a season right now. Before it was about 50/50 and now the players have totally gone away from that and want 65%..this is done guys and girls. I'm telling you right now, it's freakin done. The owners are probably laughing at Fehr and the players. Who do these guys think they are? Good luck to the players because they need it, good luck playing in Europe next season, great living conditions in Russia...Plus they will make no where near as much as they would in the NHL. The quicker the players realize how much money there losing over this garbage the quicker a deal will get done. The players cannot wait out the owners in this, it happened in 04 and it's happening now.

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11-13-2012, 11:10 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull

Daly tells Phila Inquirer sides r "very far apart. The players are asking for guaranteed dollars + a 'raise' year-over-year." #NHL #NHLPA
Yeah if this is true I expect talks to break down now for until after thanksgiving.

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11-13-2012, 11:11 AM
  #134
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I typically ignore the conflicting reports if they are still meeting, but there is nothing happening it becomes bad.

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11-13-2012, 11:12 AM
  #135
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a deal will be struck by saturday the latest
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlantaWhaler View Post
Yeeahhh....good luck with that.
the woman is telling me to be more optimistic in all aspects of life. She gets two weeks of this nonsense before I go back to being a realist.

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11-13-2012, 11:13 AM
  #136
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Just saw a quote from Ed Snider that mentioned he's dissapointed in the lockout. Of course, he could just be playing games with his statement, but this lines up with how I always suspected he actually stood on this lockout.

To me, the notion that Snider is a hardliner in this lockout doesn't add up. The proposed contract changes would hurt his team and help others. His team was one that exploited those contracts as much as any. He's also not having any issues turning a profit with his club. I don't really see a single reason Snider would be in a pro-lockout owner's clique.

It seems though pretty confirmed that Jacobs is a hardliner in all of this. I don't see why he would be either, so I don't know. I guess what I'm wondering is, which owners are really driving this lockout. I really don't see Snider being a part of that as others have speculated
maybe maybe not ..is he a really good PR man????

intresting article that makes me suspcious of him
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle4537827/

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11-13-2012, 11:13 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by whskybarJM View Post
the woman is telling me to be more optimistic in all aspects of life. She gets two weeks of this nonsense before I go back to being a realist.
And who am I to interfere with good 'ol therapy. My bad

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11-13-2012, 11:14 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmoneyflyguy View Post
Sam Carchidi ‏@BroadStBull

Daly tells Phila Inquirer sides r "very far apart. The players are asking for guaranteed dollars + a 'raise' year-over-year." #NHL #NHLPA
Fehr says that they're closer in regards to HRR split than the league thinks. Maybe the league would believe that also if the PA would stop offering delinked proposals. I believe that is a major issue for the league. I don't think Fehr is stupid enough not to recognize this, it seems like strategy at the moment to hold on to the 'we're closer than they say we are' all because they've reached that hypothetical 50/50 split.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:15 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Brick City View Post
I thought they pretty much agreed to a 50/50 split with linkage and were haggling over the make whole. Of course, there is the New York Times article that seems to think they agreed on the make whole as well. So much conflicting news, although Daly is as close to the horse's mouth as we can get. If Daly speaks the truth, we're likely losing the season.
The PA has never agreed to 50/50 in the way the NHL wants.

The PA's acceptance of 50/50 is either:

1. Based on unknown growth figures set against guaranteed raises

OR

2. They accept 50/50 as long as every exisitng contract is honored outside the system from 2014 on. So in other words it's not 50/50 until every exisiting deal has expired.

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:16 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
the 400 million they have projected to lose is from cancelling all preseason games, and all october and november games.
$400 million seems really low to me.

If you take out exhibition games (say, 4%), 25% of regular season games (62 instead of 82 game schedule), another 2% (?) for the Winter Classic, and subtract 10% for fan/sponsor backlash, that's 41% hit to HRR. Well over $1 billion by my reckoning.

Even a 72 game schedule means a 28% decrease, which would still be more than double the $400 million they're projecting.

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11-13-2012, 11:17 AM
  #141
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Here is the full Recchi article,just saw the tweets before:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2012/1...HvO/story.html

The longer they’re out, the revenues are going to go down and down,’’ said Recchi, explaining why he believes the NHL’s offer is only going to get worse. “Corporate sponsors aren’t going to be lining up . . . so there goes that money. The schedule isn’t going to be 82 games, I don’t think, at this point. That’s more money lost. So, how are you going to get a better deal? Personally, I think the best time is now.’’
.................................................. ..........................................


Recchi was stunned three years ago when the players abruptly fired Paul Kelly as the union’s executive director, and was among the very few in the Bruins’ dressing room to let his feelings known, especially to teammate Andrew Ference, who helped lead the mutiny against Kelly. He felt Kelly was the right man for the job, someone who could protect the players’ best interests while also working to build on a true partnership with the league.

“A dark time,’’ said Recchi, reflecting on Kelly’s ouster. “And it has been frustrating to see how it’s played out, obviously. If Paul had stayed on the job, I don’t think you would have seen this happen. The two sides would have started talking long before, maybe a year sooner [in 2011], and not with two or three months to go before [the CBA] expired

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:17 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
It's just getting worse, there's no hope for a season right now. Before it was about 50/50 and now the players have totally gone away from that and want 65%..this is done guys and girls. I'm telling you right now, it's freakin done. The owners are probably laughing at Fehr and the players. Who do these guys think they are? Good luck to the players because they need it, good luck playing in Europe next season, great living conditions in Russia...Plus they will make no where near as much as they would in the NHL. The quicker the players realize how much money there losing over this garbage the quicker a deal will get done. The players cannot wait out the owners in this, it happened in 04 and it's happening now.
I was starting to tilt pro-NHLPA when is appeared the 50/50 split was achieved and Bettman was being obstinate on the contracting issues. If it's true that the union is still pushing for raises and de-linkage, then I'm all for maintaining the lockout, breaking the union, and offering them a less favorable deal when they inevitably come crawling back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artz19 View Post
The PA has never agreed to 50/50 in the way the NHL wants.

The PA's acceptance of 50/50 is either:

1. Based on unknown growth figures set against guaranteed raises

OR

2. They accept 50/50 as long as every exisitng contract is honored outside the system from 2014 on. So in other words it's not 50/50 until every exisiting deal has expired.
I am ok with #2 (but certainly not #1) - I argued on here several days ago that 50/50 should be an ultimate goal once the existing contracts are honored. But I cannot remotely support the players on a figure that is apparently a raise and de-linked from revenue (especially since revenue will likely decrease this season and perhaps the next).


Last edited by Brick City: 11-13-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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11-13-2012, 11:18 AM
  #143
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Fehr is a joke. He wants no rollback on current contracts but a compounded raise for the duration? At 1.75, thats only 4 yrs to get 10%. Which means a $4MM salary now would be $4.4MM in 4 yrs. Just think DiPieto would get a nice raise. LOL. I would NEVER agree to such an outrageous proposal. No wonder these talks are going nowhere fast. Assuming that I understand it properly of course.

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11-13-2012, 11:19 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Here is the full Recchi article,just saw the tweets before:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2012/1...HvO/story.html

The longer they’re out, the revenues are going to go down and down,’’ said Recchi, explaining why he believes the NHL’s offer is only going to get worse. “Corporate sponsors aren’t going to be lining up . . . so there goes that money. The schedule isn’t going to be 82 games, I don’t think, at this point. That’s more money lost. So, how are you going to get a better deal? Personally, I think the best time is now.’’
.................................................. ..........................................


Recchi was stunned three years ago when the players abruptly fired Paul Kelly as the union’s executive director, and was among the very few in the Bruins’ dressing room to let his feelings known, especially to teammate Andrew Ference, who helped lead the mutiny against Kelly. He felt Kelly was the right man for the job, someone who could protect the players’ best interests while also working to build on a true partnership with the league.

“A dark time,’’ said Recchi, reflecting on Kelly’s ouster. “And it has been frustrating to see how it’s played out, obviously. If Paul had stayed on the job, I don’t think you would have seen this happen. The two sides would have started talking long before, maybe a year sooner [in 2011], and not with two or three months to go before [the CBA] expired

Everyone should've known when they hired Fehr that this was going to be a fight. This is probably Fehr's last battle and you gotta know that he's not going out without getting his money's worth. The players are crying poor and whining but their goal was to end up with a situation like this. They wanted someone who would fight and claw for them and now they got it.

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11-13-2012, 11:23 AM
  #145
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Recchi is right on so many levels. I seriously can't believe that the players did not see this coming. What a joke.

I'm out. Hockey is effectively over for the 2012-13 season. See you guys next year, maybe.......

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11-13-2012, 11:27 AM
  #146
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http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...-where-were-we

LeBrun on the three (biggest) issues outstanding: core economic issues, player contracting and...
Quote:
3) The damage of the lockout. NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly estimated the revenue losses at $720 million when November games were cancelled, and that doesn’t include the carnage of the Winter Classic. And what remains unresolved, and it becomes a bigger looming issue with each passing day, is just how the NHL and NHLPA will agree to share in the pain of the damage caused by the lockout when it comes to adjusting the core economic language to a shortened season. No question the league will see this as a 50-50 proposition since both sides in the league’s view are equally guilty of being unable to negotiate a new deal. But I suspect the NHLPA will make this an interesting issue by pointing out that it was the NHL that locked out the players, that triggered this lockout. Fehr has set up the league for this moment by repeatedly suggesting since last June that the players would have been willing to play this season while CBA negotiations were ongoing. So, yes, another hot potato in the offing, another hurdle to a deal.

Last week was not a total waste of time in New York City, the two sides getting closer on one key element to the deal: revenue sharing among teams. The league pushed its total money on revenue sharing to $220 million, up from $150 million in the last CBA, and while the NHLPA might still want to modify how the program is run, the money has the two sides in the same ballpark.

My take: As bleak as things look, one thing I learned after covering the last lockout in 2004-05 is that the breakthrough in talks can come completely out of nowhere with absolutely no apparent momentum leading up to it. Out of nowhere during a secret meeting between Bill Daly and Ted Saskin in Niagara Falls, N.Y., came the NHLPA’s acceptance of a salary cap, which for better or for worse was the first step in finally reaching an eventual deal seven years ago. I suspect the same will hold true here. That without any obvious hints or signs, the two sides will finally find a trigger on the core economic issues, which will provide a domino effect for the rest of the deal.

The question is, how long do we have to wait for that moment to come?

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Old
11-13-2012, 11:29 AM
  #147
GordieHoweHatTrick
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If they honestly insist on getting the full salaries then the season is long gone. Hope it was just a ploy, like my fantasy football trade offer today.
I'm guessing it's just another attempt by Fehr to stall negotiations, I don't want to believe the PA is actually serious about getting paid for a full season this year (66% of HRR). He's gonna drag this down to the wire but that wire may snap in 7-10 days if they don't get a deal done. He's really doing his tight-rope walk here

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11-13-2012, 11:31 AM
  #148
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we'll never know whats going on behind the doors unless youre there in person.
They may be closer than ever. I never read into quotes or stupid twitter and facebook garbage.

In my opinion i think they are close because they havent cancelled any more games.

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11-13-2012, 11:31 AM
  #149
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A long dispute means that both parties are wrong
-Voltaire

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11-13-2012, 11:34 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Brick City View Post
I thought they pretty much agreed to a 50/50 split with linkage and were haggling over the make whole. Of course, there is the New York Times article that seems to think they agreed on the make whole as well. So much conflicting news, although Daly is as close to the horse's mouth as we can get. If Daly speaks the truth, we're likely losing the season.
No. As I've been saying for awhile now, the PA saying 'we're close' on HRR split is a smoke screen. They hope people will gloss over (and the NYT article did gloss over it) the fact that the PA is still demanding delinked cap which is a very significant difference.

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