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Why is Tommy Barrasso never in the HOF discussion?

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07-08-2013, 07:48 PM
  #1
Mark Messier
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Why is Tommy Barrasso never in the HOF discussion?

I just don't understand this oversight, let's look at a few facts:

Calder Winner
Vezina Winner
2X Stanley Cup Winner (Also robbed of a Conn Smythe in '92)
2nd most wins by an American goaltender
Even though this probably doesn't matter too much, most ever points by a goalie with 48.

Curtis Joseph gets discussed, but Tommy B doesn't? I don't understand.

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07-08-2013, 08:05 PM
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mco543
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Personality goes a long way.

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07-08-2013, 08:23 PM
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Mayor Bee
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I'll offer some possible reasons, particularly in relation to Joseph.

First is that Joseph was an absolute workhorse, Barrasso was not. Barrasso's career high for games played in a season was 63; Joseph exceeded that seven times. Barrasso played 50 games in a season six times, Joseph twelve.

Part of this is because Joseph was a clear cut above his backup nearly his entire career. Part of it is because Joseph tended to play on worse teams with much less in the way of offense; his teams in St. Louis and Edmonton only ranked in the top half of goals scored once. Barrasso's Penguins teams were in the top five of goals scored nearly every year.

The other thing is that Joseph gave his team the best chance to win night in and night out. Was this the case with Barrasso across his entire career? Across most of his career? Across his prime years? I don't know. Barrasso's backups were guys like Ken Wregget, Frank Pietrangelo, and Wendell Young. Pietrangelo stepped in in the 1991 playoffs and went 4-1 before Barrasso came back in. The other major blemish is that, between the two players, the two best single-season teams were the 1992-93 and 1995-96 Penguins, both of which should have sleepwalked to a Cup. They lost to vastly inferior teams both times, with Barrasso in net. Those were in his prime years, not early in his career and not when he was past his prime.

As for the scoring, Barrasso's 48 regular season points trumps Joseph's 31. Barrasso also had 437 penalty minutes compared to 126 for Joseph.

I don't know if Joseph is an HOFer. He was awfully good for a long time, but I don't know if he's an HOFer. I do have him above Barrasso.

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07-08-2013, 10:28 PM
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Big Phil
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He is in the discussion. I personally think had he had the personality of Curtis Joseph then he's in by now, no question. However, he just flat out is hated by a lot of the wrong people.

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07-08-2013, 10:31 PM
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Sentinel
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I don't think either Joseph or Barrasso belong in the HHOF. Both 93 Penguins and 03 Red Wings choked with them in net. AAMOF I absolutely hate Joseph after what he did to Detroit. I acknowledge his heroics in Edmonton and Toronto. But they are not HHOF-worthy.

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07-08-2013, 10:38 PM
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Mike Farkas
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In addition to being a Bar-ass****, he was really inconsistent throughout his career. Lots of ups and downs, he wasn't a consistently elite goaltender. Throughout the era that he played in, consistency rules and he just simply didn't have it...

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07-08-2013, 10:45 PM
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Doctor No
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Both 93 Penguins and 03 Red Wings choked with them in net. AAMOF I absolutely hate Joseph after what he did to Detroit.
What (do you perceive that) Joseph did to Detroit? He had a goals-against average of 2.08 in the Anaheim series. He didn't score any goals, I guess (but neither did the rest of the team).

If you're assessing blame for that series, Joseph needs to get in line behind about twelve other Red Wings.

As for Barrasso in 1993, he definitely deserves some blame - after getting up two games to one, he went 34-for-40 in a 6-5 loss, 34-for-37 in a 6-3 win, 22-for-28 in a 7-5 loss, and 16-for-20 in a 4-3 2OT loss in the deciding game seven. It was a different era then, but you've still got to stop the puck.

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07-08-2013, 10:48 PM
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I don't think consistency has anything to do with it. The bottom-line is he has the numbers and achievements to warrant him being strongly considered for the HOF, especially when the reality is American players are held to a lesser standard for admission. Barrasso rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and that is why he's on the outside.

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07-08-2013, 11:00 PM
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Killion
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
In addition to being a Bar-ass****...
He didnt need to be pleasant Mr.Farkas. Terry Sawchuk, Billy Smith & countless others? Insolent. Arrogant. Glenn Hall a Bulimic dreaming of a career as a model for Brooks Brothers, Ralph Lauren. Strutting his stuff on the Catwalk in the latest from the Simon Templar Line by Yves St. Laurent. What other possible reason or explanation can you think of that would make a man in his 30's wish to see his breakfast, lunch & dinner twice?... I take personal exception to you or anyone else going after a member of the Goaltenders Union, no matter how much they may indeed be anti-social deviates, reprobates. Trash bags wrapped in pads. No Sir, wont do. You'll have to deal with me on that one.

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07-08-2013, 11:12 PM
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#66
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
In addition to being a Bar-ass****, he was really inconsistent throughout his career. Lots of ups and downs, he wasn't a consistently elite goaltender. Throughout the era that he played in, consistency rules and he just simply didn't have it...
A lot of that was on the Pens though. They were so bad defensively that they would make any goalie look bad... they're still like that today.

Tommy B had a huge attitude but I'm guessing that most great players need to have that or they would go insane from all of the picking. I remember a 40 YO Lemieux having a 5 point game during his last season and these boards ripped him to shreds. Barrasso just took it to another level though. He made a lot of enemies and I don't really think he cares.

I remember meeting him and getting him to sign. I saw him coming, went over for an autograph, saw he had a coffee in his hand and then backed off. I guess he kind of liked that little bit of respect because he talked to me and thanked me. I was shocked because he had that rep since his Buf days.

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07-08-2013, 11:18 PM
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Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
He didnt need to be pleasant Mr.Farkas. Terry Sawchuk, Billy Smith & countless others? Insolent. Arrogant. Glenn Hall a Bulimic dreaming of a career as a model for Brooks Brothers, Ralph Lauren. Strutting his stuff on the Catwalk in the latest from the Simon Templar Line by Yves St. Laurent. What other possible reason or explanation can you think of that would make a man in his 30's wish to see his breakfast, lunch & dinner twice?... I take personal exception to you or anyone else going after a member of the Goaltenders Union, no matter how much they may indeed be anti-social deviates, reprobates. Trash bags wrapped in pads. No Sir, wont do. You'll have to deal with me on that one.
I'm just saying...you have other (read: normal people, non-goalie people) voting on this...you think his personality doesn't precede him a bit?

That said, I still withdraw my point...goalies are freakin' nuts, I'm not messing with you or any of'em...


Last edited by Mike Farkas: 07-08-2013 at 11:29 PM.
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07-08-2013, 11:29 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Joseph has two things going for him over Barrasso:

1) he wasn't a total jerk
2) he played for Toronto

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07-08-2013, 11:45 PM
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Mayor Bee
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By the time Joseph arrived in Toronto, he was already firmly established. I do wonder if his Edmonton years (particularly with the upset of Dallas) gave him an extra boost in perception, which is the guy who carried his team a la Bill Ranford in a post-Messier world.

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07-09-2013, 01:16 AM
  #14
Killion
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
By the time Joseph arrived in Toronto, he was already firmly established. I do wonder if his Edmonton years (particularly with the upset of Dallas) gave him an extra boost in perception, which is the guy who carried his team a la Bill Ranford in a post-Messier world.
In "perception"? My Dear Sir, oh how you underestimate the superior hockey IQ of LeafNation. No, you see, Curtis grew up in a Foster Home just north of Toronto with a family who raised oversized German Sheppards. Yes, his Stepfather would hang him up in a closet in a special neck brace from a hook with Schatze', a particularly large & aggressive brute for days on end for the most trivial of transgressions wherein the young man learned how to balance himself using his knees from the doorknob on the left, hinge pin on the right in a perfect butterfly. Come feeding time, a raw pork chop, perhaps some sauerkraut, an overcooked baked potato tossed into the cupboard, young Curtis developing his rapier like glove hand while avoiding the snarling maw of the Alsatian, grabbing the food before it hit the back wall or floor....

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07-09-2013, 01:30 AM
  #15
vadim sharifijanov
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two goalies:

regular season:

(a) 777GP 369W 277L 86TOL

(b) 781GP 385W 273L 92TOL

playoffs:

(a) 119GP 61W 54L 2 cups

(b) 138GP 77W 56L 2 cups 2 finals losses

awards:

(a) 1 vezina 1 AST1 2 AST2

(b) 1 smythe 1 AST2


barrasso seems to get a lot more support around here (seems to usually be considered the best eligible non-HHOF goalie after vachon) than vernon does. both won two cups with powerhouse teams, both had some epically bad performances on powerhouse teams who were upset. both were inconsistent, but both also had some extremely high moments. barrasso has the better regular season record (in terms of vezina/AST placement), vernon has two extra high level playoff performances. barrasso placed 29th on the HOH goalies list, vernon didn't place in the top 40.

seems like if anything, either barrasso is too high or it's vernon who's the oversight. beezer and joseph over vernon, i get, though i think if they're over vernon, they should also be over barrasso (or conversely, if barrasso is over them, vernon should be too). they have the same things going for them, and the same warts. but mike richter was eligible to be voted in the HOH top 40 project a round before vernon was. that just doesn't seem right to me.

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07-09-2013, 01:57 AM
  #16
Killion
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
seems like if anything, either barrasso is too high or it's vernon who's the oversight. beezer and joseph over vernon, i get, though i think if they're over vernon, they should also be over barrasso (or conversely, if barrasso is over them, vernon should be too). they have the same things going for them, and the same warts. but mike richter was eligible to be voted in the HOH top 40 project a round before vernon was. that just doesn't seem right to me.
Ya thats a bit messed up. Beezer, Joseph & Vernon are certainly of the same class as Richter. All 4 at the top of their games in the same class, at the same level, and absolutely brilliant Money Players. Mike Vernon in particular, appears under-rated over-all.

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07-09-2013, 01:57 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I don't think either Joseph or Barrasso belong in the HHOF. Both 93 Penguins and 03 Red Wings choked with them in net. AAMOF I absolutely hate Joseph after what he did to Detroit. I acknowledge his heroics in Edmonton and Toronto. But they are not HHOF-worthy.
Joseph was perfectly fine for Detroit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
two goalies:

regular season:

(a) 777GP 369W 277L 86TOL

(b) 781GP 385W 273L 92TOL

playoffs:

(a) 119GP 61W 54L 2 cups

(b) 138GP 77W 56L 2 cups 2 finals losses

awards:

(a) 1 vezina 1 AST1 2 AST2

(b) 1 smythe 1 AST2


barrasso seems to get a lot more support around here (seems to usually be considered the best eligible non-HHOF goalie after vachon) than vernon does. both won two cups with powerhouse teams, both had some epically bad performances on powerhouse teams who were upset. both were inconsistent, but both also had some extremely high moments. barrasso has the better regular season record (in terms of vezina/AST placement), vernon has two extra high level playoff performances. barrasso placed 29th on the HOH goalies list, vernon didn't place in the top 40.

seems like if anything, either barrasso is too high or it's vernon who's the oversight. beezer and joseph over vernon, i get, though i think if they're over vernon, they should also be over barrasso (or conversely, if barrasso is over them, vernon should be too). they have the same things going for them, and the same warts. but mike richter was eligible to be voted in the HOH top 40 project a round before vernon was. that just doesn't seem right to me.
Vernon didn't deserve his Smythe, and doesn't deserve to get in over Barrasso. Neither should have been ranked over Osgood in the goalies project; that was just outright wrong.

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07-09-2013, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
two goalies:

regular season:

(a) 777GP 369W 277L 86TOL

(b) 781GP 385W 273L 92TOL

playoffs:

(a) 119GP 61W 54L 2 cups

(b) 138GP 77W 56L 2 cups 2 finals losses

awards:

(a) 1 vezina 1 AST1 2 AST2

(b) 1 smythe 1 AST2


barrasso seems to get a lot more support around here (seems to usually be considered the best eligible non-HHOF goalie after vachon) than vernon does. both won two cups with powerhouse teams, both had some epically bad performances on powerhouse teams who were upset. both were inconsistent, but both also had some extremely high moments. barrasso has the better regular season record (in terms of vezina/AST placement), vernon has two extra high level playoff performances. barrasso placed 29th on the HOH goalies list, vernon didn't place in the top 40.

seems like if anything, either barrasso is too high or it's vernon who's the oversight. beezer and joseph over vernon, i get, though i think if they're over vernon, they should also be over barrasso (or conversely, if barrasso is over them, vernon should be too). they have the same things going for them, and the same warts. but mike richter was eligible to be voted in the HOH top 40 project a round before vernon was. that just doesn't seem right to me.
Neither one belongs.

Barrasso had 4 or 5 legitimately good seasons in his career and 15 where he was injured or his play ranged from mediocre to crap.

Vernon almost single-handedly turned a potential dynasty into a one-time Cup winner.

Both still belong more than Osgood, though. At least they had legitimate peaks where they were briefly top-5 goalies.

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07-09-2013, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Joseph was perfectly fine for Detroit.



Vernon didn't deserve his Smythe, and doesn't deserve to get in over Barrasso. Neither should have been ranked over Osgood in the goalies project; that was just outright wrong.
Both Barrasso and Cujo have superior Vezina records than Osgood.

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07-09-2013, 07:23 AM
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Neither one belongs.

Barrasso had 4 or 5 legitimately good seasons in his career and 15 where he was injured or his play ranged from mediocre to crap.

Vernon almost single-handedly turned a potential dynasty into a one-time Cup winner.

Both still belong more than Osgood, though. At least they had legitimate peaks where they were briefly top-5 goalies.
I agree, except the Osgood sentiment. In 2008 (starting from playoffs) - 2009 he was a Top-5 goalie in the League.

CuJo was hired for $7M to provide goaltending in case of those superstars struggles (like Hasek one year prior). Which he did not do. His play for Detroit was a far cry from his play in Edmonton or Toronto.

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07-09-2013, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Joseph has two things going for him over Barrasso:

1) he wasn't a total jerk
2) he played for Toronto

You forgot #3: He was a better goaltender. At least outside Barrasso's absolute peak for sure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
I agree, except the Osgood sentiment. In 2008 (starting from playoffs) - 2009 he was a Top-5 goalie in the League.
After reinventing himself Osgood was very strong in those two playoff runs that is for sure. He doesn't get enough credit around here for it.

Quote:
CuJo was hired for $7M to provide goaltending in case of those superstars struggles (like Hasek one year prior). Which he did not do. His play for Detroit was a far cry from his play in Edmonton or Toronto.
Nonsense.

If I am doing this early morning math correctly, Curtis Joseph had a combined .931 save % and a combined 1.64 GAA in his playoffs with Detroit.

Your heroes just couldn't score.

Never ceases to amaze me how people love to scapegoat Detroit goaltenders for not getting it done and then when they do... turn around and give them no credit for it.

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07-09-2013, 08:33 AM
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Personality goes a long way.
One former teammate stated. "I liked him as a player, but as a person that was another story". Tommy rubbed a lot of people the wrong way

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07-09-2013, 09:03 AM
  #23
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I don't know if anyone mentioned Barrasso's puckhandling, which was superb. He was the third dman back there.

I thought he should have won the Conn Smythe in 92 (they gave it 66 who missed quite a few playoff games) but not many liked him.

Character is part of the consideration of a hall of famer, so he may have a long wait if ever getting into the hall.

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07-09-2013, 09:24 AM
  #24
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Above average...I guess, at times. But no, far from a HOFer.

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07-09-2013, 09:49 AM
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Barasso never was dominant, doesn't have the numbers, case closed.

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