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Old
11-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #1
xyzz
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Decertification (from a Leafs perspective)

sounds like decertification would be good from a leafs perspective...

I'm still hoping for some hockey but at this point the season is already tainted, and we may as well just let our youngsters to continue to develop in jr. clubs for the rest of the year.

decertification would mean all rules are out the window, and all contracts are null. The CBA is all about making things fair.. without a CBA we get to actually use money to our advantage.

The best UFA's (every player is a UFA) -go to the highest bidder
Top draft picks - highest bidder

The Leafs would have an opportunity to be the NY Yankees of hockey.

thoughts?

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11-23-2012, 03:02 PM
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I heard the word "decertification" mentioned about 50x today on hockey central at noon? Can someone please explain exactly what it means?

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11-23-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xyzz View Post
sounds like decertification would be good from a leafs perspective...

I'm still hoping for some hockey but at this point the season is already tainted, and we may as well just let our youngsters to continue to develop in jr. clubs for the rest of the year.

decertification would mean all rules are out the window, and all contracts are null. The CBA is all about making things fair.. without a CBA we get to actually use money to our advantage.

The best UFA's (every player is a UFA) -go to the highest bidder
Top draft picks - highest bidder

The Leafs would have an opportunity to be the NY Yankees of hockey.

thoughts?
Don't want it, despite it being so unlikely, I would say that there's a better chance of marmosettes taking over governments around the world, and banana bombing nations around the world.

Why would that be good?
Why would you WANT to be the Yankees of hockey?

Just look at the state of soccer in Europe. It's a joke. There is nothing in place to curtail the ridiculous spending by teams owned by oil barrons, and there isn't a lick of parity in most leagues. Teams run massive annual deficits, and it drives ticket prices through the roof. The average fan can't afford to attend games comfortably, and certainly doesn't have the quid to take their whole family (much like the Leafs already are, and what have we won lately?)

It's an awful idea.

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11-23-2012, 03:05 PM
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Leafs could spend all that money, but they won't.

Leafs simply can't get anywhere near the revenues of the Yankees. Yankees can seat twice as many people per game and have twice as many home games. Fans would be seriously disappointed in MLSE for the amount of money they spend. MLSE wants a championship, but it's still a business first.

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11-23-2012, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Don't want it, despite it being so unlikely, I would say that there's a better chance of marmosettes taking over governments around the world, and banana bombing nations around the world.

Why would that be good?
Why would you WANT to be the Yankees of hockey?

Just look at the state of soccer in Europe. It's a joke. There is nothing in place to curtail the ridiculous spending by teams owned by oil barrons, and there isn't a lick of parity in most leagues. Teams run massive annual deficits, and it drives ticket prices through the roof. The average fan can't afford to attend games comfortably, and certainly doesn't have the quid to take their whole family (much like the Leafs already are, and what have we won lately?)

It's an awful idea.
soccer in Europe has produced the most passionate fans ever seen in the sports world. From fans to ownership, its about passion for your team, and sometimes that means you take a loss.

Its run like a business here - and it shows... matter of opinion i guess....


edit: and yes I know decertification is highly unlikely, but it is on the table now

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11-23-2012, 03:09 PM
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It wont get to that point.

But if it does, all just take the Eastern Conference All Star team from last year.

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11-23-2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
Don't want it, despite it being so unlikely, I would say that there's a better chance of marmosettes taking over governments around the world, and banana bombing nations around the world.

Why would that be good?
Why would you WANT to be the Yankees of hockey?

Just look at the state of soccer in Europe. It's a joke. There is nothing in place to curtail the ridiculous spending by teams owned by oil barrons, and there isn't a lick of parity in most leagues. Teams run massive annual deficits, and it drives ticket prices through the roof. The average fan can't afford to attend games comfortably, and certainly doesn't have the quid to take their whole family (much like the Leafs already are, and what have we won lately?)

It's an awful idea.

also, parity does nothing for me.

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11-23-2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
I heard the word "decertification" mentioned about 50x today on hockey central at noon? Can someone please explain exactly what it means?
Give this a quick read.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...questions.html

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11-23-2012, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by xyzz View Post
also, parity does nothing for me.
Parity is important for the sport and teams individually as well to grow. There is more fan demand if there is more uncertainty of of the outcome (you don't know who is going to win). Leagues want close games.

Example of this being the Yankees when they won a bunch of championships around 1950. Fan attendance went DOWN in the later seasons of their championship run because fans became disinterested. They knew who was likely to win so why bother going? There was no excitement in it.

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11-23-2012, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
I heard the word "decertification" mentioned about 50x today on hockey central at noon? Can someone please explain exactly what it means?
Basically, the PA would cease to exist. In theory it would mean that each player would have to negotiate his own individual contract with any team. It would be a total free market system. No draft etc. Nothing. If the leafs want nathan Mackinnon they just go offer him money. If they want Crosby, Malkin, and Getzlaf, they just go offer money.

There would be no CBA because there is no union. Thing like airfare, equipment, and salary (all governed by the CBA) would all have to be individually bartered.

In reality, it is simply a negotiation tactic as the system wouldnt work within the framework of the current NHL. Small market teams wouldnt be able to out muscle large market teams and its not an exaggeration to say many teams would just fold right away (which bettman wont allow).

It also opens up a huge can of legal ramifications which the NHL and its owners simply dont want to get in to. Main one being that if the union de-certifies, the lockout is thus illegal because the PA doesnt exist. it would then open up the teams to lawsuits as they have illegally locked out players under contract.

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11-23-2012, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
Leafs could spend all that money, but they won't.

Leafs simply can't get anywhere near the revenues of the Yankees. Yankees can seat twice as many people per game and have twice as many home games. Fans would be seriously disappointed in MLSE for the amount of money they spend. MLSE wants a championship, but it's still a business first.
Yes, you have to wonder just how much our ownership would be willing to spend. Would we outspend teams like Florida, Anaheim etc. by a large margin? Yes. Detroit, Philly, NYR? Not so much. Hell, the Leafs wouldn't have the highest payroll, I think.

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11-23-2012, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
Parity is important for the sport and teams individually as well to grow. There is more fan demand if there is more uncertainty of of the outcome (you don't know who is going to win). Leagues want close games.

Example of this being the Yankees when they won a bunch of championships around 1950. Fan attendance went DOWN in the later seasons of their championship run because fans became disinterested. They knew who was likely to win so why bother going? There was no excitement in it.

well the Yankees can still buy whoever they want, and I dont think baseball is struggling, so I'm not sure what the point is here.

Also, I'm not to concerned about what the league wants - my interest lies with the success of the Leafs

and again, when it comes to parity - I find it hard to argue against the system in place for European soccer. I'm not even a soccer fan, but you have to admit, they have the most passionate fans in the world and very high attendance and interest .... all with a lack of parity.

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11-23-2012, 03:18 PM
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GN: What would decertification mean?

DS: When players decertify what they feel like they can do is instead of negotiating with the league as one entity and using the union, they can actually get legal counsel and individually start dealing with the teams.

GN: Is this a last resort?

DS: It’s sort of a last ditch effort and what it allows them to do is to pursue things legally rather than through a union. Many believe that leagues actually prefer the union model because it allows them to be exempt from anti-trust or anti-competition laws, so that they can bargain as a league rather than independent business.

GN: How likely is this to happen?

DS: At this point, there is still room for negotiation and not likely to happen. It’s really a hard line approach.

GN: Scenarios if it happens?

DS: It’s interesting to think of what could happen if the players were to decertify and all of a sudden become independent contractors. [What it would mean is that] players could then contract their services out and go as so far as sell tickets on behalf of teams. It’s an interesting concept that would really blow the doors off the way we know sports today. The game would change dramatically.

GN: What else could they do?

DS: Players would really be more based on their performance. We often see in sports what we call in sports ‘contract years,’ so in the year that their contract is set to expire, [they] often perform better than they have in their previous years, because they’re playing for money in their following year

Read it on Global News: Global News | Explainer: Decertifying the NHLPA as next step in lockout
here is the link

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11-23-2012, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Basically, the PA would cease to exist. In theory it would mean that each player would have to negotiate his own individual contract with any team. It would be a total free market system. No draft etc. Nothing. If the leafs want nathan Mackinnon they just go offer him money. If they want Crosby, Malkin, and Getzlaf, they just go offer money.

There would be no CBA because there is no union. Thing like airfare, equipment, and salary (all governed by the CBA) would all have to be individually bartered.

In reality, it is simply a negotiation tactic as the system wouldnt work within the framework of the current NHL. Small market teams wouldnt be able to out muscle large market teams and its not an exaggeration to say many teams would just fold right away (which bettman wont allow).

It also opens up a huge can of legal ramifications which the NHL and its owners simply dont want to get in to.
Wouldn't just be the small market teams that suffer. All teams suffer. The big market teams will all want the best players (in theory). Mackinnon as you said could just be signed, no draft. Leafs offer 5m, but of wait, Philly just offered him 8m. NY wants in on the action now and offers him 10m. Leafs don't want to be left out on this kid so they offer 11m. Montreal all of a sudden comes and offers 14m. Salaries would skyrocket for the star players due to bidding wars, even some who haven't even played an NHL game yet. Teams make less money. Having to individually negotiate everything hurts players too. Only people who would really benefit from it are the superstars.

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11-23-2012, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Grant View Post
Wouldn't just be the small market teams that suffer. All teams suffer. The big market teams will all want the best players (in theory). Mackinnon as you said could just be signed, no draft. Leafs offer 5m, but of wait, Philly just offered him 8m. NY wants in on the action now and offers him 10m. Leafs don't want to be left out on this kid so they offer 11m. Montreal all of a sudden comes and offers 14m. Salaries would skyrocket for the star players due to bidding wars, even some who haven't even played an NHL game yet. Teams make less money. Having to individually negotiate everything hurts players too. Only people who would really benefit from it are the superstars.
thats what you call a free market. It works in baseball

I'm also fine with a luxury tax.

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11-23-2012, 03:22 PM
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If the decertification was to go through, the league might as well contract some teams.

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11-23-2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by xyzz View Post
thats what you call a free market. It works in baseball

I'm also fine with a luxury tax.
But it's not what happens in baseball. Baseball still has a draft, FA, rights to players for so long, etc. There are still controls for teams to make money and exist. Decertification eliminates all of that stuff.

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11-23-2012, 03:28 PM
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But it's not what happens in baseball. Baseball still has a draft, FA, rights to players for so long, etc. There are still controls for teams to make money and exist. Decertification eliminates all of that stuff.
well i think it is same to assume that IF decertification were to happen, things like the draft, minimum contracts etc would slowly come back (i.e. a different version NHLPA slowly comes back)

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11-23-2012, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre View Post
Basically, the PA would cease to exist. In theory it would mean that each player would have to negotiate his own individual contract with any team. It would be a total free market system. No draft etc. Nothing. If the leafs want nathan Mackinnon they just go offer him money. If they want Crosby, Malkin, and Getzlaf, they just go offer money.

There would be no CBA because there is no union. Thing like airfare, equipment, and salary (all governed by the CBA) would all have to be individually bartered.

In reality, it is simply a negotiation tactic as the system wouldnt work within the framework of the current NHL. Small market teams wouldnt be able to out muscle large market teams and its not an exaggeration to say many teams would just fold right away (which bettman wont allow).

It also opens up a huge can of legal ramifications which the NHL and its owners simply dont want to get in to. Main one being that if the union de-certifies, the lockout is thus illegal because the PA doesnt exist. it would then open up the teams to lawsuits as they have illegally locked out players under contract.
Thanks for the detailed answer, learned a lot from it. So basically whats happening is the NHLPA is strong-arming the NHL into taking their deal with a "either you accept our proposal OR we deceritfy"?

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11-23-2012, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Thanks for the detailed answer, learned a lot from it. So basically whats happening is the NHLPA is strong-arming the NHL into taking their deal with a "either you accept our proposal OR we deceritfy"?
At this point, it is the media more than anyone else simply saying it is an option that the players have. Far from a "take it or leave it" situation at this point.

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11-23-2012, 03:31 PM
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well i think it is same to assume that IF decertification were to happen, things like the draft, minimum contracts etc would slowly come back (i.e. a different version NHLPA slowly comes back)
So we would decertify only to slowly 're-certify' back to what we currently have but in 5+ years from now?

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11-23-2012, 03:32 PM
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The "yankee" model isn't something that appeals to me at all really.

They spend as much quadruple as some of their competitors and have only got one championship in the last 11 years. IMO there's a lot better sporting models around the world to aspire to.

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11-23-2012, 03:34 PM
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Lame. It's like playing a team in NHL 13 where you just put all the good players on your team. You might win, but it doesn't really mean anything.

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11-23-2012, 03:38 PM
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Lame. It's like playing a team in NHL 13 where you just put all the good players on your team. You might win, but it doesn't really mean anything.
Tell that to soccer fans and they'll tell you differently, although, I see where you're coming from.

Would probably be a great thing for the Leafs but it would feel dirty becoming a good team this way. Don't see it going this far though, would change the game way too much.

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11-23-2012, 03:40 PM
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Wouldn't just be the small market teams that suffer. All teams suffer. The big market teams will all want the best players (in theory). Mackinnon as you said could just be signed, no draft. Leafs offer 5m, but of wait, Philly just offered him 8m. NY wants in on the action now and offers him 10m. Leafs don't want to be left out on this kid so they offer 11m. Montreal all of a sudden comes and offers 14m. Salaries would skyrocket for the star players due to bidding wars, even some who haven't even played an NHL game yet. Teams make less money. Having to individually negotiate everything hurts players too. Only people who would really benefit from it are the superstars.
And as salaries go up into the $100M+ range, so do ticket prices.

Pie in the sky idea, never going to happen. Decertification will only be used as a scare tactic.

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