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Having just gotten home from work and listened to the podcast (Thanks for posting the link!) I found one thing really interesting. When asked about whether or not there were any negotiations today Fehr said no but staff were talking back and forth. But he insisted that wasn't negotiations.
At the very least there are staff talking. It will be interesting to see if those are the kinds of conversations that really move the sides along.
And a second quick point: Can we make a rule stating "What happened in 04-05 stays in 04-05"? The players' side keeps insisting that this was a loss when it was really a win. It's getting really tired.
But maybe that's just me.
Carry on.
Quick Edit: The interview was a lot shorter than I thought it was going to be. Can't CBC afford the air time for these important conversations?
McLean did a decent job but Fehr did what you expect. Dodge any hard question and shift the blame for everything on the NHL. He couldn't even admit that bonuses not counting towards the cap anymore was a concession to the players.
Once again he called his proposal which has player salary rise as a concession worth hundreds of millions. What a surprise.
But in the end, I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to act differently. His job is to keep the union willing to lose paychecks and then you have to play the victim. It seems to be working for him. We're past mid-November and not all that close to a deal.
McLean did a decent job but Fehr did what you expect. Dodge any hard question and shift the blame for everything on the NHL. He couldn't even admit that bonuses not counting towards the cap anymore was a concession to the players.
Once again he called his proposal which has player salary rise as a concession worth hundreds of millions. What a surprise.
But in the end, I'm not sure why anyone would expect him to act differently. His job is to keep the union willing to lose paychecks and then you have to play the victim. It seems to be working for him. We're past mid-November and not all that close to a deal.
Fehr seems to have been telling the players that the NHLPA and NHL are close to a deal. I don't think there could be anything further from the truth.
We are rapidly approaching the point where Bettman will set a deadline for having a deal or losing the entire season. It will be up to the players to accept whatever offer is on the table from the NHL, or not. Fehr will call it an artificial deadline. I fully expect that Fehr will never take an offer from the NHL back to the players and recommend its acceptance under any circumstances.
With the way the union was hijacked, the players may not be able to overcome this obstacle (Fehr).
Fehr seems to have been telling the players that the NHLPA and NHL are close to a deal. I don't think there could be anything further from the truth.
We are rapidly approaching the point where Bettman will set a deadline for having a deal or losing the entire season. It will be up to the players to accept whatever offer is on the table from the NHL, or not. Fehr will call it an artificial deadline. I fully expect that Fehr will never take an offer from the NHL back to the players and recommend its acceptance under any circumstances.
With the way the union was hijacked, the players may not be able to overcome this obstacle (Fehr).
No doubt. A lot of player comments basically says if Bettman only gives them a few wins on the contracting rights there will be a deal and they can't understand why Bettman won't do that. That seems to indicate that they believe the sides have agreed on the economics.
I guess that's where Daly's comments on "maybe they should get a reality check" comes from.
Having just gotten home from work and listened to the podcast (Thanks for posting the link!) I found one thing really interesting. When asked about whether or not there were any negotiations today Fehr said no but staff were talking back and forth. But he insisted that wasn't negotiations.
At the very least there are staff talking. It will be interesting to see if those are the kinds of conversations that really move the sides along.
And a second quick point: Can we make a rule stating "What happened in 04-05 stays in 04-05"? The players' side keeps insisting that this was a loss when it was really a win. It's getting really tired.
But maybe that's just me.
Carry on.
Quick Edit: The interview was a lot shorter than I thought it was going to be. Can't CBC afford the air time for these important conversations?
As far as I know, that was always the case. The league has used the line 'come to us with a proposal or to talk about our proposal otherwise we're not interested in meeting' but the parties have never closed the door of communication completely down. Meeting face to face isn't the only way to communicate. In fact, it was this very sentiment that began communication which led to that series of meetings in NYC.
I don't understand why anyone is believing a word coming out of either Fehr's or Bettman's mouths. Everything they are saying right now is gamesmanship. Nothing is the truth... and if it is, it's only a fraction of the truth, some twisted, distortion of the truth that makes their arguments sane in the light of insanity.
Basically, I'm not believing a word either of them are saying until a deal is on the table, and I have no idea why anyone else would either. Fehr has a clearly defined track record of outright lying through the media as a negotiation ploy, that much is clearly evident if you look at any of the MLB labor negotiations he presided over. And Bettman hired a PR firm prior to the lockout, that should tell you all you need to know about his goals.
These two guys are not exactly avatars of integrity. You want to impress me as a fan? You're not going to do it via a half-assed attempt at lip service while the cancellation of more games is jut over the horizon.
Also: WTF is Fehr doing on a radio show, anyways? You should be spending time trying to figure out how this deal is going to get done... of course, Fehr's been stalling for a full calendar year now on CBA talks, so I guess this is just more of the same from him. Get a deal done, asshat. Stay off the radio until you have a finished CBA to announce.
Fehr doesn't care about the game. He doesn't care about hockey any more that he cared about baseball. He only cares about "winning" no matter how much pain his client endures.
The NHL, on the other hand, doesn't care about its fans. This is a money grab, pure and simple. They're not leveling the playing surface for all teams. They're not making it possible for all teams to compete for the Cup.
I don't care who is spinning what. Screw them both!
I don't understand why anyone is believing a word coming out of either Fehr's or Bettman's mouths. Everything they are saying right now is gamesmanship. Nothing is the truth... and if it is, it's only a fraction of the truth, some twisted, distortion of the truth that makes their arguments sane in the light of insanity.
Basically, I'm not believing a word either of them are saying until a deal is on the table, and I have no idea why anyone else would either. Fehr has a clearly defined track record of outright lying through the media as a negotiation ploy, that much is clearly evident if you look at any of the MLB labor negotiations he presided over. And Bettman hired a PR firm prior to the lockout, that should tell you all you need to know about his goals.
These two guys are not exactly avatars of integrity. You want to impress me as a fan? You're not going to do it via a half-assed attempt at lip service while the cancellation of more games is jut over the horizon.
Also: WTF is Fehr doing on a radio show, anyways? You should be spending time trying to figure out how this deal is going to get done... of course, Fehr's been stalling for a full calendar year now on CBA talks, so I guess this is just more of the same from him. Get a deal done, asshat. Stay off the radio until you have a finished CBA to announce.
He can't get a deal done when he has to sell out his constituents' contracting rights in order to do it.
Listen you hate Gary Bettman or should I use your term of the evil little man and that makes you more willing to believe that making teams spend to the cap without using bonus money is not a concession to the players but it is. How about his spin on the 2 week moratorium last night all the tweets said he wanted to consult the players. Today Fehr claims he said no immediately. If Fehr said no right away why was everyone worried about 2 weeks off negotiations.
He can't get a deal done when he has to sell out his constituents' contracting rights in order to do it.
According to Fehr.
Which is my point entirely. Entirely. If there's anything we have learned from this lockout, it's that there is a ridiculous amount of information being thrown around, most of which is at best half-truths, at worst outright lies. And on top of that, people who are pro-player / pro owner glom onto the half truths that fits the narrative they want to believe, and disregard the others, despite the fact that the factoid they're holding as gospe is probably just as BS-riddled as the one they dismiss. This is what happens when you try to negotiate, at least in part, through the media: it gets sensationalized, and the truth gets buried along the way.
I don't believe either side right now, and I won't believe a thing until I see it in writing, signed by both parties. Why anyone would trust EITHER of these guys on their word is mind-boggling. Everything Fehr said in his interview today has a slant. It's all biased. Same for Bettman, when he makes media appearances. Why, if you KNOW FOR A FACT that these people are actively bending the truth, do you even for a second take anything they say at face value?
Put it on paper. It's the only way I'm going to believe either side at the moment.
I don't believe either side right now, and I won't believe a thing until I see it in writing, signed by both parties. Why anyone would trust EITHER of these guys on their word is mind-boggling. Everything Fehr said in his interview today has a slant. It's all biased. Same for Bettman, when he makes media appearances. Why, if you KNOW FOR A FACT that these people are actively bending the truth, do you even for a second take anything they say at face value?
Put it on paper. It's the only way I'm going to believe either side at the moment.
I think Bill Daly is the only semi-moderate one of the big four (the two Fehrs and Bettman) and he went into attack mode a couple of days ago so that doesn't really speak well as to how things are going
I did wind up listening to the interview, nothing I wouldn't have expected. Fehr's a more articulate speaker than he is a writer - based on his infamous 'offer number three'.
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic
I don't understand why anyone is believing a word coming out of either Fehr's or Bettman's mouths. Everything they are saying right now is gamesmanship. Nothing is the truth... and if it is, it's only a fraction of the truth, some twisted, distortion of the truth that makes their arguments sane in the light of insanity.
In an odd way I'm inclined to believe the negative stuff both sides spit out about each other well, because I'm inclined to believe the worst about Bettman, the owners, Fehr and the NHLPA anyway. The last twenty years of labor history in two different major sports pretty much proves the worst about everyone involved.
Listen you hate Gary Bettman or should I use your term of the evil little man
He is an evil little man.
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and that makes you more willing to believe
No, it doesn't.
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that making teams spend to the cap without using bonus money is not a concession to the players but it is.
Is this something the PA has proposed, or something the NHL wants to institute?
From the player side, the actual pay is what counts. The cap hits are somewhat misleading as most people believe that equates to annual spending, but as you probably know, the cap hit and actual salaries for a given year can be very different. This is especially the case with large bonuses and front-loaded contracts. In the end, the players will only get X%, and not a penny more.
If teams had to spend even more (that they could not get to the floor with bonus money they do not expect to pay out), then that means MORE actual spending, which will probably result in higher escrow as players still cannot get more than X%.
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How about his spin on the 2 week moratorium last night all the tweets said he wanted to consult the players. Today Fehr claims he said no immediately. If Fehr said no right away why was everyone worried about 2 weeks off negotiations.
I don't know about everyone and what they were talking about, but Fehr said that it was never the case that even the NHL was operating on that presumption. It was something that Gary suggested to him, and Fehr said they should keep talking, so Gary didn't really follow through. The problem with tweets is that you get one piece from one guy, another piece from someone else and it's bits and pieces people try to piece together to get a whole. Wouldn't it be better to get fully researched news? We end up blaming the principals in the discussion when it could all be taken out of context.
