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Israel-Gaza conflict huge escalation

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:07 AM
  #176
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The whole siege on Gaza started because as soon as Israel pulled all the settlers out, Hamas started lobbing rockets across the border.

I mean really what incentive does Israel have to starve the Gazans? They have to have a blockade to stop arms shipments from getting through. Why else would they do it?

The Arabs had a few chances for a two state solution and refused them all. Now it looks like that possibility is dead. Israel will not go back to 67 borders because they are not defensible.

Has anyone ever even stopped to think what a two state solution would look like? Gaza somehow connected to Westbank?

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11-16-2012, 12:10 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by The Bored Man View Post
Israeli's rejection of nukes exists about as much as North Korea's democracy: Officially affirmed, but anyone who reads the news once in a while knows what's up.

You can call it speculation if the only proof you'll accept is a declaration from the government. Is that correct? If so, there's not much point in this discussion.
Incorrect... but you are right about there being no point to the discussion. Budda Smoke at least realized this at some point.

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11-16-2012, 12:14 AM
  #178
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Have you googled Vanunu yet?

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11-16-2012, 12:15 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Have you googled Vanunu yet?
I checked that when this whole nuclear Israel stuff started. Just entertaining on my part to see what kind of response Id get as there obviously were no tests, admission by the government or inspections. K.

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11-16-2012, 12:20 AM
  #180
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Incorrect... but you are right about there being no point to the discussion. Budda Smoke at least realized this at some point.
So you don't accept that Israel has nuclear weapons?

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11-16-2012, 12:21 AM
  #181
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So you don't accept that Israel has nuclear weapons?

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11-16-2012, 12:22 AM
  #182
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I checked that when this whole nuclear Israel stuff started. Just entertaining on my part to see what kind of response Id get as there obviously were no tests, admission by the government or inspections. K.
Right. That's the point.

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11-16-2012, 12:23 AM
  #183
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11-16-2012, 12:28 AM
  #184
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I checked that when this whole nuclear Israel stuff started. Just entertaining on my part to see what kind of response Id get as there obviously were no tests, admission by the government or inspections. K.
Inspections for what? Israel doesn't allow inspections these days and is not forced to considering no body has jurisdiction over their nuclear program as non-signees of the NPT.

Quote:
Israel may have conducted an underground test in the Negev in 1963.[49]. On November 2, 1966, the country may have carried out a non-nuclear test, speculated to be zero yield or implosion in nature. On 22 September 1979 Israel may have been involved in a possible South African nuclear bomb test also known as the The Vela Incident in the southern Indian Ocean. [2][64]
Quote:
In 2010, The Guardian released South African government documents that it alleged confirmed the existence of Israel's nuclear arsenal. According to the newspaper, the documents are minutes taken by the South African side of alleged meetings between senior officials from the two countries in 1975. The Guardian alleged that these documents reveal that Israel had offered to sell South Africa nuclear weapons that year. The documents appeared to confirm information disclosed by a former South African naval commander, who said there was an agreement between Israel and South Africa involving an offer by Israel to arm eight Jericho missiles with atomic bombs.[74][75] Waldo Stumpf—who led a project to dismantle

South Africa's nuclear weapons program—doubted Israel or South Africa would have contemplated a deal seriously, saying that Israel could not have offered to sell nuclear warheads to his country due to the serious international complications that such a deal could have. Shimon Peres, now Israeli President and then defence minister, has rejected the newspaper's claim that the negotiations took place. He also asserted that The Guardian's conclusions were "based on the selective interpretation of South African documents and not on concrete facts".[76]

Avner Cohen, author of Israel and the Bomb and the forthcoming The Worst-Kept Secret: Israel's Bargain with the Bomb, said "Nothing in the documents suggests there was an actual offer by Israel to sell nuclear weapons to the regime in Pretoria."[77]
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The first public revelation of Israel's nuclear capability (as opposed to development program) came from NBC News, which reported in January 1969 that Israel decided "to embark on a crash course program to produce a nuclear weapon" two years previously, and that they possessed or would soon be in possession of such a device.[71] This was initially dismissed by Israeli and U.S. officials, as well as in an article in The New York Times. Just one year later on July 18, The New York Times made public for the first time that the U.S. government believed Israel to possess nuclear weapons or to have the "capacity to assemble atomic bombs on short notice".[72] Israel reportedly assembled 13 bombs during the Yom Kippur War as a last defense against total defeat, and kept them usable after the war.[49]
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The Israeli nuclear program was first revealed publicly on December 13, 1960 in a small Time article,[65] which said that a non-Communist non-NATO country had made an "atomic development". On December 16, the Daily Express revealed this country to be Israel, and on December 18, U.S. Atomic Energy Commission chairman John McCone appeared on Meet the Press to officially confirm the Israeli construction of a nuclear reactor and announce his resignation.[66] The following day The New York Times, with the help of McCone, revealed that France was assisting Israel.[67]
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By 1969, U.S. Defense Secretary Melvin Laird believed that Israel might have a nuclear weapon that year.[52][53] Later that year, U.S. President Richard Nixon in a meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir pressed Israel to "make no visible introduction of nuclear weapons or undertake a nuclear test program", so maintaining a policy of nuclear ambiguity.[54] Before the Yom Kippur War Peres nonetheless wanted Israel to publicly demonstrate its nuclear capability to discourage an Arab attack, and fear of Israeli nuclear weapons may have discouraged Arab military strategy during the war from being as aggressive as it could have been.[23]
The CIA believed that Israel's first bombs may have been made with highly enriched uranium stolen in the mid-1960s from the U.S. Navy nuclear fuel plant operated by the Nuclear Materials and Equipment Corporation, where sloppy material accounting would have masked the theft.[55][56]

By 1974 U.S. Intelligence believed Israel had stockpiled a small number of fission weapons,[57] and by 1979 were perhaps in a position to test a more advanced small tactical nuclear weapon or thermonuclear weapon trigger design.[58]
The CIA believed that the number of Israeli nuclear weapons stayed from 10 to 20 from 1974 until the early 1980s.[2] Vanunu's information in October 1986 said that based on a reactor operating at 150 megawatts and a production of 40 kg of plutonium per year, Israel had 100 to 200 nuclear devices. Vanunu revealed that between 1980–1986 Israel attained the ability to build thermonuclear weapons.[59] By the mid 2000s estimates of Israel's arsenal ranged from 75 to 400 nuclear warheads.[2][60]

Several reports have surfaced claiming that Israel has some uranium enrichment capability at Dimona. Vanunu asserted that gas centrifuges were operating in Machon 8, and that a laser enrichment plant was being operated in Machon 9 (Israel holds a 1973 patent on laser isotope separation). According to Vanunu, the production-scale plant has been operating since 1979–80. The scale of a centrifuge operation would necessarily be limited due to space constraints.[specify] Laser isotope separation, however, if developed to operational status, could be quite compact. If highly enriched uranium is being produced in substantial quantities, then Israel's nuclear arsenal could be much larger than estimated solely from plutonium production.[61] Uranium enrichment could also be used to re-enrich reprocessed uranium into reactor fuel to more efficiently use Israel's uranium supply.

In 1991 alone, as the Soviet Union dissolved, nearly 20 top Jewish Soviet scientists reportedly emigrated to Israel, some of whom had been involved in operating nuclear power plants and planning for the next generation of Soviet reactors. In September 1992, German intelligence was quoted in the press as estimating that 40 top Jewish Soviet nuclear scientists had emigrated to Israel since 1989.[62]

In a 2010 interview, Uzi Eilam, former head of the Israeli Atomic Energy Commission, told the Israeli daily Maariv that the nuclear reactor in Dimona had been through extensive improvements and renovations and is now functioning as new, with no safety problems or hazard to the surrounding environment or the region.[63]
Quote:
The spotlight falls back on Israel's secret nuclear weapons programme on Wednesday, as Mordechai Vanunu, the man who exposed it, walks from jail after an 18-year sentence. BBC News Online's Martin Asser looks at the significance of the case.

Mordechai Vanunu's revelations in 1986 appeared to confirm suspicions about Israel's nuclear arsenal and showed a weapons programme bigger and more advanced than anyone had previously thought.

Vanunu gets a message to the outside world: "Vanunu M, was hijacked in Rome..."
He had worked for nine years as a technician at the Dimona nuclear research centre in the Negev desert - but he left in late 1985 to backpack around the Far East, having become disillusioned with his work.

Before quitting he surreptitiously snapped two rolls of film at the top secret nuclear plant, including equipment for extracting radioactive material for arms production and laboratory models of thermonuclear devices.

It is not clear whether Vanunu was already set upon blowing the whistle on Israel's secret nuclear activities, but by the following year he had joined a group of anti-nuclear Christians in Sydney, Australia, coincidentally being baptised as an Anglican.

One of the group, Colombian-born freelance journalist Oscar Guerrero, persuaded him to follow his conscience and publish the pictures along with detailed information about the Dimona plant.

It was a decision that led him first to London and the Sunday Times - then to Rome and kidnapping by Israeli intelligence service Mossad - then back to Israel and a long jail sentence.

Secret deal

Israel is thought to have begun its quest for weapons of mass destruction soon after the establishment of the state in 1948.

Faced by a hostile region and vastly outnumbered by its enemies, Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion desired a nuclear deterrent, but without wanting to upset Israel's friends by introducing non-conventional weapons into a flashpoint region.

So Israel did a secret deal with France to build the Dimona plant, which is thought to have gone into production to make the ingredients for nuclear weapons in the 1960s.

Successive governments employed a policy of "nuclear ambiguity" and have hidden behind the (apparently misleading) formula that "Israel will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons into the Middle East".

Ever since admitting that the Dimona plant housed a nuclear reactor rather than a textile factory, Israeli officials have insisted it is intended for exclusively peaceful purposes.

Israel never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, so Dimona is not subject to international scrutiny - and its "ambiguity" policy has been accepted by Washington (which has laws preventing it from supporting proliferating states) at face value.

It was against this murky backdrop that the Vanunu affair exploded in 1986.

Stunning revelation

Mordechai Vanunu is a Moroccan Jew born in 1954, whose family arrived in Israel in 1963. In 1971 he became a sapper in the Israeli army, having failed in his main ambition to join the air force.

After military service he was taken on as a trainee at Dimona and ended up working in the underground Machon 2 facility, which he claimed was responsible for the production of the bomb components plutonium, lithium dueteride and beryllium.

Outside his top secret job, Vanunu began studying philosophy at Ben Gurion university, where he became more and more involved in politics - espousing pro-Palestinian views and joining the anti-war movement.

By 1985, he learnt that he was being made redundant, but he had already decided to leave the plant, taking his infamous photographs before his departure.

The world was stunned when the Sunday Times published its expose Revealed: The Secrets of Israel's Nuclear Arsenal on 5 October 1986.

Experts tricked

Editor Andrew Neil described the three-page spread as the greatest scoop he achieved as head of one of the UK's most influential papers.

Not only did Vanunu's account expose the sham of the blind-eye policy towards Israel's nuclear capability by its main ally, Washington.


Vanunu's pictures showed nuclear weapons making equipment in close detail
His information, which was verified by experts in the nuclear field, also indicated that Dimona was capable of producing much more weapons-grade plutonium than previously thought.

According to him, the plant had been upgraded several times to increase production of plutonium and in 1985 could make 1.2 kg per week, enough for up to 12 nuclear warheads a year.

Israel's estimated nuclear capability had to be revised from a handful of weapons to approximately 100-200 warheads, ranging from battlefield weapons to warheads that could lay waste whole cities.

He also recounted stories of how US experts allowed to inspect the site in the 1960s had been tricked by false walls and concealed lifts so they did not even realise the six underground floors at Machon 2 existed.

Whistleblower or traitor

Before the Sunday Times had even printed its story, Mordechai Vanunu had been lured away from London and kidnapped in Rome in a much-publicised Mossad sting.

Drugged and bound, he was shipped back home to face the full force of Israeli justice.

He may have been hailed as a heroic whistle blower by the anti-nuclear camp outside Israel, which has campaigned doggedly on his behalf and even had him nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, but there have been few tears shed for him by Israelis.

Former Prime Minister Shimon Peres - who ordered his capture, reportedly on Italian soil so as not to embarrass the then-British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher - expresses the prevailing view.

"[Vanunu] was a traitor to this country. I can't go into all the processes... The fact is that he was brought to trial," Mr Peres said in a recent BBC interview.

Certainly he has done little to endear himself to the Israeli public - abandoning Judaism, appearing to endanger national security and jeopardising ties with Washington, Israel's greatest supporter.

And his 18 years incarceration - more than half of the time in solitary confinement - seems if anything to have sharpened his political views.

"I claim that I wanted to tell the world about what was happening... this is not treason, it is informing the world, unlike Israel's policies," he said in a taped prison interview leaked two days before the release.

Using draconian measures inherited from pre-1948 British emergency legislation the Israeli judiciary is taking steps to make sure that Vanunu does not spill any more of Israel's secrets.

He says he has none, but wants to continue his campaign for Israel to abandon nuclear arms - so he still has the ability to cause plenty of embarrassment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3640613.stm

Shall I continue?

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:32 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Inspections for what? Israel doesn't allow inspections these days and is not forced to considering no body has jurisdiction over their nuclear program as non-signees of the NPT.













http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3640613.stm

Shall I continue?
You are worse than HF50. Enough fun for one nite. Gnite.

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11-16-2012, 12:34 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Inspections for what? Israel doesn't allow inspections these days and is not forced to considering no body has jurisdiction over their nuclear program as non-signees of the NPT.













http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3640613.stm

Shall I continue?
I shake my head every time I read the Vanunu story. So much hypocrisy from Western governments when it comes to Israel.

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11-16-2012, 12:35 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by ChiGuySez View Post
You are worse than HF50. Enough fun for one nite. Gnite.

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11-16-2012, 12:36 AM
  #188
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You are worse than HF50. Enough fun for one nite. Gnite.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out coward.

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11-16-2012, 12:56 AM
  #189
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Israel having nuclear weapons does not worry me. Nor does it worry anyone else because everyone knows Israel has no reason to use them other than self defense.

Fundamentalist Islamic states possessing nuclear weapons do worry me. If the Persian people overthrew their crazy ass leadership and joined the 21st century I would have no problem with them having nucs either.

This is a good video which sums up the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Hqo-7fSH0

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11-16-2012, 01:36 AM
  #190
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.478085

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...agedy-timeline

Interesting...

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11-16-2012, 02:13 AM
  #191
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So Israel decided to destroy a chance for peace just for ***** and giggles? Or are you implying that the evil zionist regime manufactured this escalation to appear tuff before the Israeli elections?

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11-16-2012, 02:17 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
So Israel decided to destroy a chance for peace just for ***** and giggles? Or are you implying that the evil zionist regime manufactured this escalation to appear tuff before the Israeli elections?
I don't know. I just found it intriguing.

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11-16-2012, 04:00 AM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
Israel having nuclear weapons does not worry me. Nor does it worry anyone else because everyone knows Israel has no reason to use them other than self defense.

Fundamentalist Islamic states possessing nuclear weapons do worry me. If the Persian people overthrew their crazy ass leadership and joined the 21st century I would have no problem with them having nucs either.

This is a good video which sums up the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Hqo-7fSH0
Sure. Only Mighty Whitey are allowed to control Nuclear Weapons. Everybody else controlling them are just irresponsible fundamentalists who have no concept of self-preservation.

Get real a minute. The leaders of these nations are not irrational people. They achieved their status because of pragmatism, rational thinking. You don't become the head Ayatollah by being a nutcase.

They know a nuclear weapon is not just another bomb. Using it, even indirectly can spell doom to their regime and country. They have no reason to actually use it, simply having it is all they actually need of it. Deterrence; the Iranian regime has been the target of American foreign policy in the past 30 years; having a nuclear weapon is a good way to stop that sort of undermining efforts.

Iranian has no advantage to actually destroy Israel. They gain political points in the Muslim world by rattling the Sabre, funding second-hand guerilla groups, and keeping their hands clean of any actual dirty business. If there was a regime they wanted destroyed, it was the Saddam Hussein regime (which is now done, thanks USA!) and the House of Saud.

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11-16-2012, 05:13 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by PSUCapsFan View Post
So Israel decided to destroy a chance for peace just for ***** and giggles? Or are you implying that the evil zionist regime manufactured this escalation to appear tuff before the Israeli elections?
It's the evil Zionists, man! The Jew is trying to take over the world!

The hate for Israel and Jews in this thread is sad.

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These are the type of statements that really piss me off.
What about the truth pisses you off? How can you deny that Hamas are terrorists?

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11-16-2012, 05:56 AM
  #195
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Israel is drafting 30-40k troops. This may not be a one-off between the two sides. We might be seeing some prolonged action here, especially if Egypt either fails to talk Hamas down or openly joins them. Of course if Egypt makes a move, then we got a war down there as I'm sure other arab nations would then join in.

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11-16-2012, 06:10 AM
  #196
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Terrorism is bad, but also defined as the war of the weak. State terrorism is even worse.

Hamas is, as I see it, a direct response by the palestinians who consider the Israeli agenda is to exterminate them. Those of you applauding Israel, are the same people who should be applauding Nazi Germany when they "defended" themselves* against organized and armed jewish opposition inside jewish gettos during WW2, where starvation and misery, conducted by the Nazis was well calculated. Palestinians are surviving only because of smuggling tunnels, just as the Jews did. It's the exact same thing.

If there would be no surveillance and no pressure from foreign powers on Israel, the Palestinians would've been eradicated already.

*I assume you are well accustomed to "defensive" invasion wars.


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11-16-2012, 06:46 AM
  #197
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Terrorism is bad, but also defined as the war of the weak. State terrorism is even worse.

Hamas is, as I see it, a direct response by the palestinians who consider the Israeli agenda is to exterminate them. Those of you applauding Israel, are the same people who should be applauding Nazi Germany when they "defended" themselves* against organized and armed jewish opposition inside jewish gettos during WW2, where starvation and misery, conducted by the Nazis was well calculated. Palestinians are surviving only because of smuggling tunnels, just as the Jews did. It's the exact same thing.

If there would be no surveillance and no pressure from foreign powers on Israel, the Palestinians would've been eradicated already.

*I assume you are well accustomed to "defensive" invasion wars.

It's not the same thing. It's not even remotely the same thing. Tho I agree that Israel is an occupying force in certain areas, there really is no comparison. The Hamas Charter does not call for a return to the 1967 borders or a peace treaty, it calls for the eradication of Israel and the extermination of jews world wide.

If any party in that conflict is compareable to the nazis and their ideology, it is Hamas.

It's horrid to see killings on both sides involving children and other innocents, but it's even more disturbing to see the IDF and Hamas arguing over who are the evil doers. Fact is, they both are.

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11-16-2012, 07:00 AM
  #198
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Again, people trying to parallel Israel and the Nazis have no idea what they are talking about. This comparison has come up multiple times and it's been debunked multiple times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubkov21 View Post

It's horrid to see killings on both sides involving children and other innocents, but it's even more disturbing to see the IDF and Hamas arguing over who are the evil doers. Fact is, they both are.
Which is why it troubles me when people claim the Palestinians are victim, and pretend like they don't do anything wrong. As you said, both sides are at fault. People here have seriously ignored or downgraded the violent mentality of Hamas. And if you don't agree, you're a "Zionist" or "AIPEC" drone.


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11-16-2012, 07:02 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Dubkov21 View Post
It's not the same thing. It's not even remotely the same thing. Tho I agree that Israel is an occupying force in certain areas, there really is no comparison. The Hamas Charter does not call for a return to the 1967 borders or a peace treaty, it calls for the eradication of Israel and the extermination of jews world wide.

If any party in that conflict is compareable to the nazis and their ideology, it is Hamas.

It's horrid to see killings on both sides involving children and other innocents, but it's even more disturbing to see the IDF and Hamas arguing over who are the evil doers. Fact is, they both are.
How is it not the same thing? If a world war ended and it was decided Norway belongs to the South Africans, not to the Norwegians, where the oppressed, terrorized Norwegians would be put in monitored, isolated camps where you would be systematically starved and have no rights, where you would constantly lose ground because South Africa continuosly occupied more and more land from your cramped camp, how would you feel?

Of course a violent reaction would happen, where a fundamentalist movement like the Hamas would be formed, where Norwegians would declare the occupation illegitimate and that the South African sovereignty over your land should cease to exist entirely (yes, even before the concentration camps are formed). Of course Hamas are ********, but it's the war of the weak (terrorism). They fight back in any way they can fight back.

The comparison is constantly brought up, because the State of Israel is doing the same thing to the Palestinians that they constantly remind us happened to them. It's only the concentration camps that are missing, which probably would happen if they could get away with it.

I'm not only blaming Israel for this, the biggest idiots are the dumb ******** who decided to put them there, claimed it as legitimate because they say so and didn't think it would have big consequences.

Israel is funding and aiding Hamas, because it favours their agenda (civilian casualties are great for public opinion), just as the Brits funded and aided IRA, just as the United States is funding and aiding Al Quaeda, because it gives their dirty agenda legitimecy. It's called a gambit. You sacrifice some civilians for greater benefits. Even the Romans did it.


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11-16-2012, 07:04 AM
  #200
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Warsaw ghetto = Gaza strip.

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