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Israel-Gaza conflict huge escalation

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Old
11-16-2012, 07:07 AM
  #201
Mike Emrick
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Originally Posted by slip View Post
Warsaw ghetto = Gaza strip.
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
How is it not the same thing? If a world war ended and it was decided Norway belongs to the South Africans, not to the Norwegians, where the oppressed, terrorized Norwegians would be put in monitored, isolated camps where you would be systematically starved and have no rights, where you would constantly lose ground because South Africa continuosly occupied more and more land from your cramped camp, how would you feel?

Of course a violent reaction would happen, where a fundamentalist movement like the Hamas would be formed, where Norwegians would declare the occupation illegitimate and that the South African sovereignty over your land should cease to exist entirely (yes, even before the concentration camps are formed). Of course Hamas are ********, but it's the war of the weak (terrorism). They fight back in any way they can fight back.

The comparison is constantly brought up, because the State of Israel is doing the same thing to the Palestinians that they constantly remind us happened to them. It's only the concentration camps that are missing, which probably would happen if they could get away with it.
The mere fact that you are trying to compare Nazi Germany to Israel shows that you are 1) bitterly biased against Israel and 2) Have no clue what you're talking about. It's not even close to the same thing.

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11-16-2012, 07:36 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
The mere fact that you are trying to compare Nazi Germany to Israel shows that you are 1) bitterly biased against Israel and 2) Have no clue what you're talking about. It's not even close to the same thing.
Ok, let's see.
1. Each ghetto had a council, which was responsible for ensuring that the ghetto followed formal policies. Check.
2. No one could get in or out and they had no rights whatsoever. Check.
3. The living conditions in the ghettos were horrible. They were deprived of food, medicine and other basic necessities. Check.
4. Several Jews/ Palestinians were tortured and even executed for alleged crimes. Check.
5. If anyone broke the rules, it would have great consequences for the entire ghetto. Check.

If Palestinian kids throw stones, they are faced with mortal gunfire, or even air assault. If an Israeli soldier is killed, the retribution is a leveled neighbourhood, countless Palestinians systematically murdered, tortured and sexually abused. Water and electricity can be turned off for days or even a week, "just to set an example".

Not the same thing? Oh, I see. It's just poor Israel defending itself against the great threat of an evil population conspiring against them. In a conflict like this, the ball is always in the court of the side that has a monopoly in violence, but, they're not interested in that, because they seem to have the same agenda as Hamas, they just don't say in the open.

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11-16-2012, 07:37 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Ok, let's see.
1. Each ghetto had a council, which was responsible for ensuring that the ghetto followed formal policies. Check.
2. No one could get in or out and they had no rights whatsoever. Check.
3. The living conditions in the ghettos were horrible. They were deprived of food, medicine and other basic necessities. Check.
4. Several Jews were executed for alleged crimes. Check.
5. If anyone broke the rules, it would have great consequences for the entire ghetto. Check.

If Palestinian kids throw stones, they are faced with mortal gunfire, or even air assault. If an Israeli soldier is killed, the retribution is a leveled neighbourhood, countless Palestinians systematically murdered, tortured and *****.

Not the same thing? Oh, I see. It's just poor Israel defending itself against the great threat of an evil population conspiring against them.
You're too short-sighted. It's not worth having a conversation with someone this naive and jaded.

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11-16-2012, 07:43 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Terrorism is bad, but also defined as the war of the weak. State terrorism is even worse.

Hamas is, as I see it, a direct response by the palestinians who consider the Israeli agenda is to exterminate them. Those of you applauding Israel, are the same people who should be applauding Nazi Germany when they "defended" themselves* against organized and armed jewish opposition inside jewish gettos during WW2, where starvation and misery, conducted by the Nazis was well calculated. Palestinians are surviving only because of smuggling tunnels, just as the Jews did. It's the exact same thing.

If there would be no surveillance and no pressure from foreign powers on Israel, the Palestinians would've been eradicated already.

*I assume you are well accustomed to "defensive" invasion wars.
What an appropriate username.

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11-16-2012, 07:50 AM
  #205
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A monopoly on violence? The definition of monopoly must have changed last night.

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11-16-2012, 07:51 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
You're too short-sighted. It's not worth having a conversation with someone this naive and jaded.
Perhaps that is needed, as the part of the world you're living in is pro-Israeli in just about anything, regardless of what they do. Of course I'm biased, I don't like bullies. But oneliners isn't going to do anything either.
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A monopoly on violence? The definition of monopoly must have changed last night.
Nope, it is still the same. But perhaps you should update your understanding of the definition, it's not monopoly in the regard you might think. "The monopoly on violence is the entity which upholds the claim to the monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force in the enforcement of its order."

Ergo sum, Israel's use of force is considered legitimate, while Hamas is illegitimate. That Hamas is a counterproductive fundamentalist terrorist group that targets civilians, doesn't make it legitimate for Israel as a sovereign state to also act like a counterproductive terrorist organisation and target civilians. On the contrary. But perhaps my standards for Israel are too high and that I should significantly lower them. Perhaps then we could meet common ground. After all, which other country but Israel can bomb American warships to pieces for three hours and get away with it, while an Arab nation with oil would be invaded for being just that?


Last edited by Chimp: 11-16-2012 at 08:14 AM.
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11-16-2012, 08:03 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post


Which is why it troubles me when people claim the Palestinians are victim, and pretend like they don't do anything wrong. As you said, both sides are at fault. People here have seriously ignored or downgraded the violent mentality of Hamas. And if you don't agree, you're a "Zionist" or "AIPEC" drone.
Then again, if you claim that Israel steps over the line, you risk being accused of anti-semitism. Disagreeing with the Israeli government somhow equates to spewing jew hate.

Anyway, there is no doubt that Hamas is more than a mere resistance movement, its a terrorist organization which targets civilians not as collatteral damage, but as their primary target.

Of course, The Fatah/PLO really aren't much better. Nor are guys like Sharon or Bibi.

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11-16-2012, 08:22 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Dubkov21 View Post
Then again, if you claim that Israel steps over the line, you risk being accused of anti-semitism. Disagreeing with the Israeli government somhow equates to spewing jew hate.

Anyway, there is no doubt that Hamas is more than a mere resistance movement, its a terrorist organization which targets civilians not as collatteral damage, but as their primary target.

Of course, The Fatah/PLO really aren't much better. Nor are guys like Sharon or Bibi.
Which is the whole problem. Israel is targeting civilians just about as much as Hamas does, it's not "collateral damage". The collateral damage only occurs when the target actually is a suspect, collateral damage they're not exactly trying to minimize by any means. That you raze entire civilian neighbourhoods to the ground is not "collateral", that's systematical terror. Random murder, torture and sexual abuse is systematical terror, just as using tanks, helicopters and modern weaponry directly against civilians is.

If the sovereign State of Israel wasn't acting exactly like Hamas did, I would perhaps be less "short-sighted and naive" about the situation.

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11-16-2012, 08:54 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Again, people trying to parallel Israel and the Nazis have no idea what they are talking about. This comparison has come up multiple times and it's been debunked multiple times.

Which is why it troubles me when people claim the Palestinians are victim, and pretend like they don't do anything wrong. As you said, both sides are at fault. People here have seriously ignored or downgraded the violent mentality of Hamas. And if you don't agree, you're a "Zionist" or "AIPEC" drone.
The Nazi comparison is a stretch. The apartheid comparison however is not.

There are over 3 million Arabs living in the West Bank dude.

Do you really think rag-tag (relatively speaking) Islamic extremist group like Hamas actually represents all those people?

There are generations worth of innocent Palestinian people who have been victims to human rights violations by the Isralei government. That's a fact.

Hamas is a violent, militant organization, yes. BUT so is Israel. To deny this is to deny reality.

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11-16-2012, 08:59 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Chimp View Post
Which is the whole problem. Israel is targeting civilians just about as much as Hamas does, it's not "collateral damage". The collateral damage only occurs when the target actually is a suspect, collateral damage they're not exactly trying to minimize by any means. That you raze entire civilian neighbourhoods to the ground is not "collateral", that's systematical terror. Random murder, torture and sexual abuse is systematical terror, just as using tanks, helicopters and modern weaponry directly against civilians is.

If the sovereign State of Israel wasn't acting exactly like Hamas did, I would perhaps be less "short-sighted and naive" about the situation.
If you believe Israel intentionally target civilians, you're out of touch. Trouble is Hamas tend to do apply the tactic of Hez'B'Allah from a few years ago, and place their missile launch sites and other military installations in or close to residential areas, schools and hospitals.

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11-16-2012, 09:13 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
Hamas is essentially a terrorist organization. So you want me to support terrorists!?

But don't believe me, both the US and Canadian governments designate it as a terrorist organization.




I refuse to support terrorism in any form. Hezbollah are also terrorists too. I remember arguing with another poster here once who said they weren't.



We have a pact to defend our good friend Bibi as well as Israel when they are under attack



Meh, the media is biased towards the Palestinians. Every newscast breaks out with images of angry Palestinians and Gaza rubble.
So what? The Mujahideen were considered allies and freedom fighters when they were fighting the legitimate government and the Soviets in Afghanistan. NOW they are considered terrorists. The statement that one mans terrorist is another's freedom fighter is accurate. It all depends from which side you are judging them.

I'm not saying that Hammas as a group don't commit awful crimes and violence against Israeli citizens, because they do. But saying that they are terrorists because good old our side calls them that is farcical.

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11-16-2012, 09:19 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
I'm not saying that Hammas as a group don't commit awful crimes and violence against Israeli citizens, because they do. But saying that they are terrorists because good old our side calls them that is farcical.
So how are they not terrorists?

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11-16-2012, 09:30 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by ChiGuySez View Post


Just misunderstood... right. left.
Do you speak Farsi? If you don't I think you should drop this because you have no clue what he actually said.

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11-16-2012, 09:42 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
So how are they not terrorists?
Where did I say they are not? You can read can't you?

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11-16-2012, 09:42 AM
  #215
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People comparing the Israeli's to Nazis is one of the most idiotic things I have heard in my life time. I am not saying I condone what is going on, but how would you feel if you were constantly barraged with missiles and terrorist attacks for no reason.

If you really want to compare some to the Nazi's the Hammas are the ones to compare. They treat their citizens like complete garbage and their main goal is to annihilate the Israeli people off the face of the earth, just like the Nazi propaganda was.

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11-16-2012, 09:46 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Dubkov21 View Post
If you believe Israel intentionally target civilians, you're out of touch. Trouble is Hamas tend to do apply the tactic of Hez'B'Allah from a few years ago, and place their missile launch sites and other military installations in or close to residential areas, schools and hospitals.
Well bombing Red Cross convoys and UN buildings, along with spraying white phosphorus over refugee camps doesn't exactly sound like collateral damage to me.

Also, http://rt.com/news/israeli-soldiers-abuse-children-581/. This is nothing new.


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11-16-2012, 09:53 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
Do you speak Farsi? If you don't I think you should drop this because you have no clue what he actually said.
It can easily be translated. Yes I know many who do speak Farsi.

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11-16-2012, 09:56 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by ChiGuySez View Post
It can easily be translated. Yes I know many who do speak Farsi.
So YOU don't speak Farsi and thus YOU don't really know what he said. You need to rely on translations. And there are translations of many of this ding-bats speeches that contradict each other.

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11-16-2012, 09:58 AM
  #219
Mike Emrick
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Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
Where did I say they are not? You can read can't you?
Yes, I can read. You said they were terrorists, then questioned me calling them terrorists, even though you yourself said they were of a violent nature. Seems kind of contradictory.



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11-16-2012, 10:07 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Doppler Drift View Post
So YOU don't speak Farsi and thus YOU don't really know what he said. You need to rely on translations. And there are translations of many of this ding-bats speeches that contradict each other.
Im glad we agree hes a contradictory dingbat.

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11-16-2012, 10:12 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Gil Gunderson View Post
Well bombing Red Cross convoys and UN buildings, along with spraying white phosphorus over refugee camps doesn't exactly sound like collateral damage to me.

Also, http://rt.com/news/israeli-soldiers-abuse-children-581/. This is nothing new.
RT is garbage.

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11-16-2012, 10:15 AM
  #222
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Back on to topic about the situation...

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak has expanded the call-up for reserve soldiers.

Also confirmed a rocket has hit Jerusalem but no causalities.

IDF still bombing the hell out of Gaza, says they've targeted 600 weapons sites.

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11-16-2012, 10:18 AM
  #223
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Egypt PM has warned Israel about doing a ground invasion.

IF Egypt gets involved..then we will have a full scale conflict with the US getting involved. Would be especially ugly for the US since we have supplied Egypt with the newest weapons and tech..

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11-16-2012, 10:18 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
RT is garbage.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/israeli-...826-24ueo.html
http://www.thejc.com/76917/idf-soldi...-arab-children
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...inian-children

Stuff like this has been going on for a long time.

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11-16-2012, 10:20 AM
  #225
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Word spreading that Hamas has shot down an F-16 for the first time ever, IDF trying to confirm.

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