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Does Anybody Here Remember Vera Lynn? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XXVIII ‎

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Old
11-15-2012, 06:48 AM
  #326
RippedOnNitro
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Originally Posted by albator71 View Post
The reason why we have a lockout every 7 or 8 years, is the owners knows they can bully the players around, wait them out and get everything they want in the CBA.

The players need a strong union and not give the owners everything the want every time the CBA expires, that's why in baseball there's no lockout, the owners know they will not win against a very strong union, they're been there, done that and not doing it again.

The same thing must happen in the NHL for all those lockout to end. This is why this lockout is very important for the future on the NHLPA, if they let the owners win again they might as well disband the union.
You've got a strong point, but the problem is that the owners have too much leverage. Because the owners do not rely on the 'profits' they make in oppose to baseball, they can just sit and relax until the players sign a deal.

A strong union to break this type of 'bullying' is not the answer, because of forementioned reasons. The players need a strong union just to get the best deal possible (aka most $$$ possible) and not try to 'break' the owners.

We are now at the point that it is just not worth anymore to hold out for a better deal, maybe the owners are willing to put more money in the 'make whole' for years 3,4,5 etc. but that is where it will end.

Although the extra $$$ they want for years 3,4,5 in the 'make whole' is just not worth giving up the December games.

And regards the contract rights...give me a break. It most likely shifts money from the youngsters to the proven players/veterans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. The total $$$ spent on contracts will remain the same, it just shifts between players.

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11-15-2012, 06:49 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The NBA played a 66 game season. Their revenues are expected to increase to $5B from $4.2B. Stern and Peter Holt. They were smart enough to make a deal. Make a deal Gary. We have Jeremy Jacobs as the main NHL owner. Jeremy appears at the meetings on Friday and everything falls apart.

Make a deal. Fehr isn't going to stick around. Losing another season. Gary can't be serious.

The NBA owners wanted a hard cap. They backed off and kept the same system with much harsher luxury taxes. They made a deal and their business will grow to the tune of $5B in revenue. It wouldn't be a $5B business if they had lost an entire season and the start of 12-13 season was tainted or delayed. They expanded their revenue sharing. 2 year transition period. Cap remained at $58,044,000 for 11-12 and 12-13. The NBA didn't get everything they wanted. The NFL didn't get everything they wanted. The new luxury taxes kick with the 13-14. Two year transition period. The NHLPA is looking for a soft landing and they are called greedy. The NBA agreed to a 2 year soft landing. $5B business. Increased revenue sharing.

Make a deal Gary. Three lockout Gary.
It takes 2.

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11-15-2012, 06:51 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
It's true the NHL may be emboldening Fehr and the PA by caving every time and coming back to the table with a deal better than the last one what ....? Like three times already.

Wouldn't surprise me if Fehr's plan is to wait this out even longer and see if he can't fish out a better deal in December, January (or gulp) can the season altogether. You very well could be right.

Both sides are yapping a lot, but Fehr really only responds to concrete action, and basically right now, you're 100% right. He's been rewarded for having this lock out go on longer. Every offer the NHL comes back after a few weeks is better than the last one. He has no incentive to sign a deal now.
Except whatever the NHLPA has gained since then is something they could have easily negotiated back in October, and it is nothing when compared to what they have lost by waiting.

The last 82-game offer was and will continue to be the best offer the players will ever receive in these negotiations.

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11-15-2012, 06:55 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
Two year transition period. The NHLPA is looking for a soft landing and they are called greedy.
Lol, that is totally backwards. The NHL is offering a 2-year soft landing, and the NHLPA is saying no, screw you, we want all of it and then more.

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11-15-2012, 07:31 AM
  #330
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They were smart enough to make a deal. Make a deal Gary.

The NBA owners wanted a hard cap. They backed off and kept the same system with much harsher luxury taxes.
Exactly, great point, except turn it around and use Fehr instead of Bettman.

The NBA got a deal done because they kept the old system. If Fehr would stop coming up with new systems and negotiate off the old one (which the owners are insisting on), its will all fall into place, just like it did in the NBA.

If only the NHLPA would follow the example of the NBA owners we would have a deal ......

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11-15-2012, 07:33 AM
  #331
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I think the NHLPA has been pretty firm about expecting the owners to honour all those contracts signed during a period that everyone knew a lockout was coming. Perhaps there are legal issues on this point? The league has agreed to honour them for two years at least. I don't know what the players think of that. But I don't recall reading any (quoted) complaints.

The new sticking point seems to be contract issues. The league has to decide what they want and where they can give in. Perhaps then we'll see a deal break out. But I'd expect another round after that where everyone can agree they got as good as they gave. That assumes the contract issues are the final obstacle. If the league is really looking for compensation for a lockout they created (for example) then we've got a long way to go yet. Fehr has been good money spent by the players union.

OTOH league proxies in the form of former players tied to management's POV suggest that the league and it's law firm are still working on breaking the union. If that is the goal then IMHO next season is in doubt.


Last edited by Dalton: 11-15-2012 at 07:40 AM.
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Old
11-15-2012, 07:35 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by RippedOnNitro View Post
You've got a strong point, but the problem is that the owners have too much leverage. Because the owners do not rely on the 'profits' they make in oppose to baseball, they can just sit and relax until the players sign a deal.
Actually the owners have leverage because last year the players made 1.9B, the owners 125M (only number we have, but I'll agree its higher than that, but not too much higher).

Therefore as the owners have significantly less to lose, they have far less of a reason to get the deal done.

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11-15-2012, 07:37 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Dalton View Post
I think the NHLPA has been pretty firm about expecting the owners to honour all those contracts signed during a period that everyone knew a lockout was coming. Perhaps there are legal issues on this point? The league has agreed to honour them for two years at least.
The league will fully honor 100% of the contracts it always has. They have too.

Its not about honoring contracts. Thats the language the NHLPA uses to obfuscate the issue.

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11-15-2012, 07:44 AM
  #334
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PA hasn't offered a 2 year landing so to say that they do is being presumptuous and misleading. They offered falls to 50/50 assuming a growth rate plus a higher and higher percentage.

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Old
11-15-2012, 07:57 AM
  #335
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Alot of people think of Fehr as some wizard but he's not, he's just a tough as nails bully lawyer just like Bettman is.

It's not so much "Fehr has them thinking they'll get a better deal" as it is "The players know what happened in 2004/2005 and they're not going to get fleeced again"

The crazy part in this thing is the players recognize they'll be giving back on this deal. They've admitted it themselves. Don't throw "well they want raises" into the argument cuz delinked proposals are tactics, just like the owners saying "take it or leave it" on contractual rights.

If a fair deal is on the table, the players will sign off on it and i doubt you'll get the PA coming back to the league with offers they're gonna like.

Who knows, last Sunday, if the league actually was flexible on contract rights, this thing may have had the traction it needed to get done.

I liked the article i read yesterday about neither side putting forth real proposals yet cuz the level of trust just isn't there. Someone or something has to break down that wall if this thing is to be solved quickly.

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11-15-2012, 07:59 AM
  #336
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I just wish someone would explain to the players that there is no way they can win in any scenario.

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11-15-2012, 08:01 AM
  #337
Greschner4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RippedOnNitro View Post
You've got a strong point, but the problem is that the owners have too much leverage. Because the owners do not rely on the 'profits' they make in oppose to baseball, they can just sit and relax until the players sign a deal.

A strong union to break this type of 'bullying' is not the answer, because of forementioned reasons. The players need a strong union just to get the best deal possible (aka most $$$ possible) and not try to 'break' the owners.

We are now at the point that it is just not worth anymore to hold out for a better deal, maybe the owners are willing to put more money in the 'make whole' for years 3,4,5 etc. but that is where it will end.

Although the extra $$$ they want for years 3,4,5 in the 'make whole' is just not worth giving up the December games.

And regards the contract rights...give me a break. It most likely shifts money from the youngsters to the proven players/veterans. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion. The total $$$ spent on contracts will remain the same, it just shifts between players.
No, they can't just sit and relax and that's why they keep negotiating against themselves. There's no reason for Fehr to make a deal when Bettman says over and over "OKAY, THIS REALLY IS IT" and then comes back with a better deal. Bettman has pretty clearly choreographed this to put his best deal on the table sometime in December.

There still isn't any reason to believe the players are going to sign a deal that gives them less than $1.89B in aggregate salaries in any year of the deal.

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11-15-2012, 08:07 AM
  #338
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Hello, guys!

My first post here and just one simple question - any chance that NHL and owners will just liquidate this league?

I mean...maybe they just get tired fighting with other leagues and players and legally (in court?) close down the NHL, abolish all clubs and eliminate all contracts?

Who owns the league? Team owners as a shareholders?

Thanks in advance!

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11-15-2012, 08:07 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Ajvan View Post
Hello, guys!

My first post here and just one simple question - any chance that NHL and owners will just liquidate this league?

I mean...maybe they just get tired fighting with other leagues and players and legally (in court?) close down the NHL, abolish all clubs and eliminate all contracts?

Who owns the league? Team owners as a shareholders?

Thanks in advance!
No x854.

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Old
11-15-2012, 08:08 AM
  #340
IceDaddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajvan View Post
Hello, guys!

My first post here and just one simple question - any chance that NHL and owners will just liquidate this league?

I mean...maybe they just get tired fighting with other leagues and players and legally (in court?) close down the NHL, abolish all clubs and eliminate all contracts?

Who owns the league? Team owners as a shareholders?

Thanks in advance!
no chance

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11-15-2012, 08:09 AM
  #341
Gret99zky
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I wonder if the "deal done by Friday" crowd is feeling confident.

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11-15-2012, 08:10 AM
  #342
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Who originally said Friday was the day? Or is that just someone throwing something out there and hope that it sticks?

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11-15-2012, 08:10 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
I just wish someone would explain to the players that there is no way they can win in any scenario.
Looking at things historically this is certainly true. But the history is exactly why a guy like Fehr was brought in.

The league can bleed out the players. It's thier most effective strategy. No denying that.

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11-15-2012, 08:11 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Gret99zky View Post
I wonder if the "deal done by Friday" crowd is feeling confident.
I was one of the ones who was confident by LAST Friday when they were talking and we thought they were getting somewhere.


Now, I think the players have 1-2 weeks to come to their senses or there is no season at all.

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11-15-2012, 08:13 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Gret99zky View Post
I wonder if the "deal done by Friday" crowd is feeling confident.
Yes, but did they say which Friday?

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11-15-2012, 08:14 AM
  #346
Greschner4
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
I was one of the ones who was confident by LAST Friday when they were talking and we thought they were getting somewhere.


Now, I think the players have 1-2 weeks to come to their senses or there is no season at all.
There's not going to be a season unless the owners agree not to cut the players' current aggregate pay. That's been the case for at least a month, probably more.

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11-15-2012, 08:15 AM
  #347
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Looking at things historically this is certainly true. But the history is exactly why a guy like Fehr was brought in.

The league can bleed out the players. It's thier most effective strategy. No denying that.
the league can simply shut down for the season and then 700+ players lose 1 year of their contract. A lot of those players it is their last contract. Also if you look at the guys who are 35+, having a year off might push them over the edge and they wont be able to cut it anymore.

The owners lose money too but their window to make money isnt 5-6 years like it is for the players. They will make money forever.

The Players will lose every time.

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11-15-2012, 08:18 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
There's not going to be a season unless the owners agree not to cut the players' current aggregate pay. That's been the case for at least a month, probably more.

Then there wont be a season and the players lose. Then they will have lose more money than they would have if they had just taken the 50-50 2 months ago.

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11-15-2012, 08:18 AM
  #349
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I just wish someone would explain to the players that there is no way they can win in any scenario.
Depends on what you classify as a win. Right now the players seem to value 'not conceding anything' higher than their financial situation. If this was about maximizing their monetary gain they would've struck a deal weeks ago. As things stand, the players still have a great chance of receiving 57 % of nothing this season.

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11-15-2012, 08:20 AM
  #350
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Depends on what you classify as a win. Right now the players seem to value 'not conceding anything' higher than their financial situation. If this was about maximizing their monetary gain they would've struck a deal weeks ago. As things stand, the players still have a great chance of receiving 57 % of nothing this season.

Thats my point. 50% of total revenue is a lot better than 57% of nothing.

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