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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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Old
11-21-2012, 07:23 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
I'm with you Michael. Especially when I factor in the bubble businesses and people that derive their income from dates. Any date is better than none to the street vendor, cabbies, waitstaff, etc.. In and around all 30 venues.
I have friends who, despite the lockout, are doing very well with dates. My friend, Ahmed, sells as many dates now as he did before the lockout.


Last edited by Ratty: 11-21-2012 at 08:01 PM. Reason: sp.
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11-21-2012, 07:27 PM
  #502
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Tuukka is on his way back to the States from The Czech Republic. Either due to injury, or...

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11-21-2012, 07:27 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
I haven't exactly been giving credit to either side for any of the concessions either have made, both have. And if you become Fehr, I get to become Bettman, although I'm obviously taller, more handsome and more personable then he is . And I'd win, but there would be no hockey for quite some time, because I would have taken even more of a hard line stance right from the get go and got this thing fixed permanently so we don't lose a year of hockey twice a decade and teams could make some money. Players would definitely rebel until they realized being an NHL player, and making millions of dollars a year ain't so bad (I wouldn't change minimum salaries but I'd damn sure drop maximum salaries). Owners would likely be pissed as well, because I'd be doing some things to ensure teams can't take advantage of fan bases simply because they're committed to the sport. Pretty sure I'd piss everyone off.

The Players need the NHL because without it they play in Europe for a couple thousand a year. Owners have other sources of income, and many likely lose less money if there is no NHL season at this point anyway. I'm not optimistic because at this point, Owners seem committed and players seem unwilling to go 50/50 unless they get some pretty big payments to supplement their share down the line.
I‘m on my phone, so I‘ll likely come across wrong due to the efficiency of the tool.

But I haven‘t seen a single concession on the owners‘ side. If you look at what it took to get the NFL players to sign THEIR deal, it was a list of goodies.

If I was in charge of either side, I would have refused this terrible ****ing method of “negotiation.“ Ridiculous and counter-productive.

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11-21-2012, 07:38 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I‘m on my phone, so I‘ll likely come across wrong due to the efficiency of the tool.

But I haven‘t seen a single concession on the owners‘ side. If you look at what it took to get the NFL players to sign THEIR deal, it was a list of goodies.

If I was in charge of either side, I would have refused this terrible ****ing method of “negotiation.“ Ridiculous and counter-productive.
They have made a number of them but they are very minor compared to what players are giving up. Mostly comfort and safety issues. Some of these are beneficial to both sides as well. The dollar value is about 1 to 2 % of what the players are giving up by going from 57% to 50%.

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11-21-2012, 07:43 PM
  #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
They have made a number of them but they are very minor compared to what players are giving up. Mostly comfort and safety issues. Some of these are beneficial to both sides as well. The dollar value is about 1 to 2 % of what the players are giving up by going from 57% to 50%.
I had no idea! Really?

Sometimes these concessions mean more than their dollar amount.

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11-21-2012, 08:05 PM
  #506
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An interesting look at the lockout and Fehr's role from Thomas Boswell:

Quote:
The biggest mismatch I’ve ever covered was not on a field. It was organized baseball against the MLBPA. And, mostly, it was unnecessary. Baseball owners refused to see the union or Fehr for what they clearly were.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...9ee_story.html

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11-21-2012, 08:07 PM
  #507
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Well,the owners did agree to reduce the split of HRR to an even 50/50. I guess that is a concession.

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11-21-2012, 08:09 PM
  #508
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Props to Roman Hamrlik for calling out Fehr.


Who saw that coming.

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11-21-2012, 08:19 PM
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I had no idea! Really?

Sometimes these concessions mean more than their dollar amount.
Yeah like the NHL agreeing to exempt the cap on emergency call ups for example. Don't need to explain the max $$ on that. Imagine 200 man games lost to a team at the max cap and unable to use LTIR on any of them because the injuries aren't long enough.

Concessions are made on both sides. Problem is that you can't find them because only one side makes all of their proposals public.

I know you said "from what you can find". But because you can't find them doesn't mean they don't exist.

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11-21-2012, 08:48 PM
  #510
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This sucks.

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11-21-2012, 08:54 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I‘m on my phone, so I‘ll likely come across wrong due to the efficiency of the tool.

But I haven‘t seen a single concession on the owners‘ side. If you look at what it took to get the NFL players to sign THEIR deal, it was a list of goodies.

If I was in charge of either side, I would have refused this terrible ****ing method of “negotiation.“ Ridiculous and counter-productive.
If I look at what the NFL has in their CBA the very first thing I see are non-guaranteed contracts. I have a hard time seeing past that honestly. NHL players have it far better then NFL players, it's where the comparison begins and ends for me. At least that's my opinion when comparing the two.

A better comparison is what happened during the NBA lockout, and those players gave up a lot.

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:02 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
Yeah like the NHL agreeing to exempt the cap on emergency call ups for example. Don't need to explain the max $$ on that. Imagine 200 man games lost to a team at the max cap and unable to use LTIR on any of them because the injuries aren't long enough.

Concessions are made on both sides. Problem is that you can't find them because only one side makes all of their proposals public.

I know you said "from what you can find". But because you can't find them doesn't mean they don't exist.
Now hold on a second... Before you get on my case about this.

The concessions made to the players have NEVER been part of the discussion. From even before the process started. I've brought it up often to a chorus of crickets. I've mentioned it MANY times in just this train of threads. No one seems to give a ****. And if they do, they're painted as player-hugging leftists.

It's the bit of information I've asked more than any other. And don't kid yourself. BOTH sides are playing the PR game pretty damn hard.

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11-21-2012, 09:07 PM
  #513
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Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
They have made a number of them but they are very minor compared to what players are giving up. Mostly comfort and safety issues. Some of these are beneficial to both sides as well. The dollar value is about 1 to 2 % of what the players are giving up by going from 57% to 50%.
What have the players given up? The only way to say they are giving anything up is if you start with the belief that they are entitled to 57% of revenue. I don't know how anyone could make that argument when you look at Industry standards: The NBA players agreed to 50%, the NFL player agreed to 48%, MLB players make 40%. Those leagues all have much better financials and give each owner the ability to be profitable without taking money out of tax payers pockets.

When the CAW (canadian autoworkers) negotiate a deal with GM do they ask for the same deal with Ford and Chrysler or do they asked Ford for an extra 5 dollars per hour?

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Old
11-21-2012, 09:14 PM
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
If I look at what the NFL has in their CBA the very first thing I see are non-guaranteed contracts. I have a hard time seeing past that honestly. NHL players have it far better then NFL players, it's where the comparison begins and ends for me. At least that's my opinion when comparing the two.

A better comparison is what happened during the NBA lockout, and those players gave up a lot.


You're right about the guaranteed contracts.

But take a look at that NBA cap again, man. The adjustment to cap floor ALONE would cause the NHL **** their pants. Let alone all of the "soft cap" expemptions.

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11-21-2012, 09:28 PM
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
Now hold on a second... Before you get on my case about this.

The concessions made to the players have NEVER been part of the discussion. From even before the process started. I've brought it up often to a chorus of crickets. I've mentioned it MANY times in just this train of threads. No one seems to give a ****. And if they do, they're painted as player-hugging leftists.

It's the bit of information I've asked more than any other. And don't kid yourself. BOTH sides are playing the PR game pretty damn hard.
What ??

I'm simply pointing out that you say you can't find any give from the NHL anywhere. I'm simply pointing out that they exist, it's just that we can't as fans, find it, heck even the media can't find it most of the time.

And I am fully are both sides play the PR game. I'm even aware the NHL plays it more than the NHLPA does.

You point out that you've asked for the info more than any other. Who have you asked? Gary Bettman? Don Fehr? Bill Daly? Or fans on a message board? Because you won't get the answers here.

Or are you suggesting that you're asking me? Because if that's the case, I've pointed out many times, I'm not at liberty to give any info out. I don't burn my bridges. There is plenty of emails on subjects including this that I have passed on to media members just so I'm left out of it including major media types like Pierre LeBrun.

Again, just because we can't find the info we want, does not mean it does not exist.

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11-21-2012, 09:39 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by Mione134 View Post
Props to Roman Hamrlik for calling out Fehr.


Who saw that coming.
Huge props to him. Hopefully others will follow suit.

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11-21-2012, 09:47 PM
  #517
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Im ffustrated by this notion that concessions are needed before a deal can bd msde. why isnt it ok to just judge a deal as good or not good? why cant these guys compare an offer to thd very best possible alternative if there was no deal?

I mean we dont have to like it but the owners are unwilling to operate under the crappy deal they had. they jonored it for as long as they had to but now they would ragher not play then continue. and they have tons of other options to make more money doing things besides hockey. hockey is only a hobby for most the owners.

Hockey is the only livlihood most players have. it pays them way more then they can make doing anyghing else. the deal offered them now even without concessions would syill be way better then anything else these players can get anyehere else in the world

If the owners were rolling in money from hockey and demanding a new deal then us fans should rightfully revolt but around 1/3 of the teams seam shakey and are constantly up for sale... Cant clmpete... Are hijacking us tax payers for life support. 3 teams have moved or are moving now cause they cant make it under current economic model.

If the owners were making gobs of money theyd be insane to do yhis lockout

The players say they are makkng consessions but thats only if they are rightfully entitled to 57%

Id argue that you could say the owners make a concession by tunning unprofitable teams that pay an average sslary well over 2mill per player instead of shutting these teams down

I dont wany any teams shut down. dont want to lose the season. i know the owners need a better deal. but what ard the players doing? there is nothing else on the planet even 1/2 as good as the offer ghey are refusing... And somehow they still need concessions so their pride wont be hurt?

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11-21-2012, 09:55 PM
  #518
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Huge props to him. Hopemfully others will follow suit.
Im fairly on the side of the owners but i cant support hamerlik here. he should keep his comments in house cause the union is why hes been overpaid about 20 million in his career. most the players shouldnt be making any comments to the public imjo

But saw one funny one today. wish i remember the player. he said nhl rejected union offer of boardwalk for baltic... Said nhl needed park place too. made me smile

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11-21-2012, 09:58 PM
  #519
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Huge props to him. Hopefully others will follow suit.
Cole and the players who think they are saving future generations or making themselves more money are only kidding themselves.

Keep contracts garanteed, UFA, Entry Level and other stuff the same.

Give in to a lower cap floor and 50/50. Keep the cap tied to revenue. Players really F-d themselves taking that extra 5% the NHL asked them not to. I feel like the NHL is set on getting that back and then some just to prove who is boss.

I have a feeling the Bruins are gunna pay for being so close to the cap in the new system and revenues bound to go down considerably. Even a 20 % reduction creates problems unless by some miracle they tie salaries in with HHR/the cap which will never happen.

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11-21-2012, 10:00 PM
  #520
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post


You're right about the guaranteed contracts.

But take a look at that NBA cap again, man. The adjustment to cap floor ALONE would cause the NHL **** their pants. Let alone all of the "soft cap" expemptions.
The entire NBA CBA is confusing as hell. I still don't understand their free agency and I've been trying for years.

But looking at the NBA's cap floor, having to spend to 85-90% of the cap eventually sounds huge. But the cap is set at 58 mill, soft yes but that's where the limit is. 90% of that is 52.2mill. The NHL's cap floor this year was projected to be 56 million!. I think the players would have more of an issue there honestly . When looking at their salary cap it isn't so much the floor I look at as it is the ceiling. 12 million lower then the projected NHL ceiling. Of course you add in all the weird exemptions, bird players, wheelchair coupons and what ever the hell else they have in there and the actual upper limits likely aren't that dissimilar. Yes it's a soft cap that can be exceeded for just about anything by the looks of it, but owners got a slight win with a strict tax system which will likely deter teams from spending.

As far as what the players gave up though, the big thing I see is the revenue obviously, going from 57% to a range of 49 to 51% with no 'make whole' agreement. That's huge, and alone more then what the NHL players have offered to give up imo. In fact, the owners offering any type of make whole money at all shows more good will then what Stern and the boys showed the NBAPA imo. The league was also going after guaranteed contracts and wanted to be rid of them, as well as possible contraction. Technically the NHL could also table both those same ideas, and when the NHLPA disagrees vehemently the NHL could say they gave them something else. The amounts salaries can rise year to year also decreased. A pretty good rundown on each concession for the NBA can be found here. Owners took that one to the bank in most peoples opinion.


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11-21-2012, 10:32 PM
  #521
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Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
Huge props to him. Hopefully others will follow suit.
No one is leaping to his defense ,, Guy is getting blasted all over place

Hamrlik is right though,,, The Erik Coles and other idiots will follow Fehr right over cliff

You would think NHLPA members would have alot more respect for opinion of someone like Hamrlik

One of the few NHL players left who went thru all 3 lockouts

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11-21-2012, 10:48 PM
  #522
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
No one is leaping to his defense ,, Guy is getting blasted all over place

Hamrlik is right though,,, The Erik Coles and other idiots will follow Fehr right over cliff

You would think NHLPA members would have alot more respect for opinion of someone like Hamrlik

One of the few NHL players left who went thru all 3 lockouts
I find Shawn Thornton to be a pretty thoughtful, intelligent guy too. See his comments this week before the union moved even closer to the NHL?

Also, at what point do the owners decide that the difference in money for them might end up being a lot worse when they lose fans after another lost season? Those of us that post on this board live in a hockey bubble, and 95% of the people here will come back no matter what.

We sure as **** don't make up 95% of the paying and viewing customers.

Just my opinion, but getting a deal done now even at 1% worse than they want might be a lot better than getting that 1% after missing this whole season.

This lockout feels different from 04, and with just cause. The league was dying last time, this time it was growing. Some fans aren't coming back, and some fans are going to take a slow walk back.

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11-21-2012, 11:12 PM
  #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
No one is leaping to his defense ,, Guy is getting blasted all over place

Hamrlik is right though,,, The Erik Coles and other idiots will follow Fehr right over cliff

You would think NHLPA members would have alot more respect for opinion of someone like Hamrlik

One of the few NHL players left who went thru all 3 lockouts
If this goes all year Hamrlik won't "make it thru" this lockout at all. He'll have already played his last NHL game.

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:19 PM
  #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
What ??

I'm simply pointing out that you say you can't find any give from the NHL anywhere. I'm simply pointing out that they exist, it's just that we can't as fans, find it, heck even the media can't find it most of the time.

And I am fully are both sides play the PR game. I'm even aware the NHL plays it more than the NHLPA does.

You point out that you've asked for the info more than any other. Who have you asked? Gary Bettman? Don Fehr? Bill Daly? Or fans on a message board? Because you won't get the answers here.

Or are you suggesting that you're asking me? Because if that's the case, I've pointed out many times, I'm not at liberty to give any info out. I don't burn my bridges. There is plenty of emails on subjects including this that I have passed on to media members just so I'm left out of it including major media types like Pierre LeBrun.

Again, just because we can't find the info we want, does not mean it does not exist.
I can't ask those involved, obviously.

But I HAVE asked that to be part of the discussion on the boards, yes. And no one wants to say boo about it. Your mentioning of what you have is the first I've heard.

It seems to me like I'm being called out for my take on the negotiations because these things you know aren't privy to public discourse. I'm trying to take as much information in as I can and interpreting it to the best of my ability. It stinks from what I can smell.

I'll ask this though, since we're in agreement about the PR game: If the league is feeding the players bones to get them to agree to the numbers they want, then why is that information obstructed from the fans? Perhaps you don't know the answer to that, and I don't intend it as a challenge... It just seems so counter-intuitive to me to want to seem like the good guys without expressing the very things that would soften their image.

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11-21-2012, 11:27 PM
  #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
The entire NBA CBA is confusing as hell. I still don't understand their free agency and I've been trying for years.

But looking at the NBA's cap floor, having to spend to 85-90% of the cap eventually sounds huge. But the cap is set at 58 mill, soft yes but that's where the limit is. 90% of that is 52.2mill. The NHL's cap floor this year was projected to be 56 million!. I think the players would have more of an issue there honestly . When looking at their salary cap it isn't so much the floor I look at as it is the ceiling. 12 million lower then the projected NHL ceiling. Of course you add in all the weird exemptions, bird players, wheelchair coupons and what ever the hell else they have in there and the actual upper limits likely aren't that dissimilar. Yes it's a soft cap that can be exceeded for just about anything by the looks of it, but owners got a slight win with a strict tax system which will likely deter teams from spending.

As far as what the players gave up though, the big thing I see is the revenue obviously, going from 57% to a range of 49 to 51% with no 'make whole' agreement. That's huge, and alone more then what the NHL players have offered to give up imo. In fact, the owners offering any type of make whole money at all shows more good will then what Stern and the boys showed the NBAPA imo. The league was also going after guaranteed contracts and wanted to be rid of them, as well as possible contraction. Technically the NHL could also table both those same ideas, and when the NHLPA disagrees vehemently the NHL could say they gave them something else. The amounts salaries can rise year to year also decreased. A pretty good rundown on each concession for the NBA can be found here. Owners took that one to the bank in most peoples opinion.
Oh, don't get me wrong... The owners will win big time in this CBA as well. I've never had any delusions about that. All I've asked for is a deal that works well enough for both sides, with enough provisions for cooperation in it, that we don't have to do this **** again in six years (or however long, which will likely happen with the NBA in 2017 I think).

I guarantee you though, if Bettman proposed the NBA's CBA with a couple of changed figures to more accurately represent NHL's revenues... That changes the PA's line of thought pretty damn quick. That cap is swiss ****in' cheese.

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