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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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Old
11-21-2012, 11:29 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Gee Wally View Post
People seem surprised that as soon as the players brought in Fehr, the owners dug in their heels.

Hell it was about as guaranteed as death and taxes.

As long as he is at the helm ( right or wrong, love it or hate it) be prepared to embrace AHL, Junior and College hockey.

Money + ego= long hockey less winter.

There is so much blame to go around this time it is ridiculous.

Last time I was squarely on the side of the owners because a cap was needed. They got what they wanted and now because that didnt work they want more. They did the dumb, short term thing and take franchise $$$ and it has not worked out resulting in teams that lose money.

With that said the players hiring of Fehr indicated all out war and while the game, as a whole, was as popular as it has been in quite some time they will now be faced with having to revive the sport and that will mean dealing with declining revenues for a couple years.

So, as usual, the NHL and it's players figure out a way to have the worst timing and worst decision making going. It will all end with some type of agreement that could have been had in August. Great job Bettman, great job Fehr.

Losers...us.

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11-22-2012, 03:30 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Orrthebest View Post
What have the players given up? The only way to say they are giving anything up is if you start with the belief that they are entitled to 57% of revenue. I don't know how anyone could make that argument when you look at Industry standards: The NBA players agreed to 50%, the NFL player agreed to 48%, MLB players make 40%. Those leagues all have much better financials and give each owner the ability to be profitable without taking money out of tax payers pockets.

When the CAW (canadian autoworkers) negotiate a deal with GM do they ask for the same deal with Ford and Chrysler or do they asked Ford for an extra 5 dollars per hour?
Whether they are entitled to 57% doesn't matter. That is what they are making now. They are giving up 13% of all future earnings. If that isn't giving something up I don't know what is. And at this point a lot of contracting rights too. It isn't just about money.

It isn't about entitlement either. It is about who brings in the revenue and who is more important. There are more billionaires than NHL quality players that people will pay to see. And the NBA doesn't have better financials. NFL & MLB do but they would have many in the red without revenue sharing.

Oh and the 2 richest teams in American pro sports the Cowboys and Redskins took money from taxpayers. That is a non-issue. Always going to happen. Football, the most profitable sport actually takes the most. 65% of teams got public funding. Only 35% of teams from the rest of the leagues took money.

And just because one league does something doesn't mean another league has to do the exact same thing. You want to be like the NFL - how about you share a majority of revenue like they do? That league works because of revenue sharing. All leagues have far more revenue sharing than the NHL. The NHL is the least popular sport, forces teams into markets that aren't working yet, forces them to pay a cap floor that they can't afford and hardly shares any revenue. It's no wonder teams lose money.

NFL - players get screwed. Non guaranteed contracts, 3.5 year average career, concussion and other health issues after playing. The owners averaged over $40M each in cash profits alone last year. The average NFL salary is about 2M. Yeah their % is really fair. The players could make 65% and the owners would still make 10 times as much.

NBA - players got over 51% to start with and 49 to 51 after. The total deal should be slightly over 50%. And the NBA was losing $300M. The NHL isn't losing money only some teams are. The NHL should not have to give as much back to the owners as the NBA did.

MLB - Their share is not 40%. I have seen conflicting reports but the lowest I have seen is 45%. I had calculated it for this year from Cots Baseball contracts and I think it was between 47 to 48%. It varies every year so it can go well over. There are no restrictions on what players can make either. It is a totally different system.

I don't know anything about Canadian autoworkers or what they ask for in negotiations. What I do know is that it has nothing to do with sports. A Canadian autoworker is much easier replaced by someone else than professional sports players are.

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11-22-2012, 03:45 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
Now hold on a second... Before you get on my case about this.

The concessions made to the players have NEVER been part of the discussion. From even before the process started. I've brought it up often to a chorus of crickets. I've mentioned it MANY times in just this train of threads. No one seems to give a ****. And if they do, they're painted as player-hugging leftists.

It's the bit of information I've asked more than any other. And don't kid yourself. BOTH sides are playing the PR game pretty damn hard.
I can't find links but I have seen a couple articles with all kinds of things listed that they have agreed to, are close on or could be approved. There are some concessions and a number of other things that are beneficial to both sides.

Here are a few from memory:

More single rooms on the road
Paid 2nd medical opinions
More access to tickets for opposing players
Paying to help immediate family to attend 1st game & other milestone games.
Some different waiver rules
Injury exemptions
Trading or keeping salary from trades (I believe both wanted this-I know Burke did)
Addressing some player safety issues
Continue raising minimum salary
Higher playoff share for players
Changing the way the cap and floor are calculated

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11-22-2012, 04:33 AM
  #529
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After calculating the players' new offer under a number of scenarios; it is better in some regards and worse in others. If the league grows at 3.3% or more it works with only a $182M difference from the owners. If it grows less there is some risk to the owners. It did address some contractual issues and changed the way the cap & floor are calculated. It will give a higher cap and lower floor. It would have lowered the floor by $3.34M last year and will help tremendously going forward.

I think make partial can work for every team as I have shown. However, I think the owners really blew it by not just doing a soft landing in the first place. That is what they players wanted.

The owners' current offer gets them to 50/50 in year 3 or 4 depending on if they defer for 1 year. It saves them $284M/year over a 10 year period at 5% growth.

A 54,52,50,50,50,etc offer does the same exact thing. 50/50 in year 3 with savings of $284M/year.
A 55,53,51,50,50,etc offer saves $273M/year over 10 years at 5% growth.

These savings are more than what I have shown worked for every team.

I believe the players would have agreed to an offer in this range without trying to delink at all.

The owners even said they needed tweaks to the system not a wholesale change like last time and then they start at 43% and changing all contracting rights. Then they do some make partial offers and it has really complicated things.

Pro owner people - would a soft landing like this that allows the owners to make ~$400M/year in cash alone work for you?

Revenue sharing would go up as revenues go up as has been proposed by both owners and players. Cap and floor based on the players latest proposal. Meeting somewhere in the middle on contracting issues.

The main board had a poll a few weeks ago that had 83% approve of a similar soft landing.

If not - why not?

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11-22-2012, 05:16 AM
  #530
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Enjoy reading Hamrlik`s opinion.......then there`s Eric Cole

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410028

How much ya wanna bet when the NEXT lockout comes, and it will, Cole puts out the Recci-like opinions??

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11-22-2012, 05:26 AM
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
Oh, don't get me wrong... The owners will win big time in this CBA as well. I've never had any delusions about that. All I've asked for is a deal that works well enough for both sides, with enough provisions for cooperation in it, that we don't have to do this **** again in six years (or however long, which will likely happen with the NBA in 2017 I think).

I guarantee you though, if Bettman proposed the NBA's CBA with a couple of changed figures to more accurately represent NHL's revenues... That changes the PA's line of thought pretty damn quick. That cap is swiss ****in' cheese.
Possibly but the ceiling and floors would both be lowered and there would be provisions to tax those that went over dollar for dollar. Likewise if the PA agreed to a 49-51% share with no make whole we'd be watching hockey right now

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11-22-2012, 06:26 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by ODAAT View Post
Enjoy reading Hamrlik`s opinion.......then there`s Eric Cole

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=410028

How much ya wanna bet when the NEXT lockout comes, and it will, Cole puts out the Recci-like opinions??
I think the most telling part of anything on TSN has been the responses, for the most part at the bottom of Cole's words people are Praising Hamrlik

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11-22-2012, 06:42 AM
  #533
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Yes Eric Cole.. you are really looking out for the future generations by agreeing to a 7% reduction in the cap, only if current contracts are honored in full.

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11-22-2012, 06:54 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Salem13 View Post
I think the most telling part of anything on TSN has been the responses, for the most part at the bottom of Cole's words people are Praising Hamrlik
Yep, Hamrlik is the first (I`ve seen) come out with a well thought out statement, simple in it`s approach, so much so that it could never work with two blowhards like Bettman and Fehr who are so deep into a pi****g match that logic/reason/fairness has long ago flown out the window.

And Cole.....won`t even touch that, yet another guy who`s full of it, what he says in public, and how he feels as he looks at his already nice and bloated bank account is another

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11-22-2012, 07:05 AM
  #535
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[QUOTE=Rumpy;55952037]Cole and the players who think they are saving future generations or making themselves more money are only kidding themselves.

In Cole's world I guess a generation is every 5 years... what a joke....

After all this time the first "formal" proposal from the PA is a 6 page document??? I mean anyone having done any contractual negotiations knows that to a scope of a 3.3B business, 6 pages of bullet points doesn't cut it. Fehr and the hardline PA obviously believe there is more to gain by blowing up the system as it stands today even if it means losing a year.

It just doesn't calculate. No matter how you run the numbers it doesn't work. The PA could take ALL the profits from the owners for the next 6 years and they still wouldn't recoup lost salaries from a year off the ice. It's lunacy. These guys are so disconnected with reality that it is disgusting. Truly makes one want to vomit.

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11-22-2012, 07:10 AM
  #536
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A good story about Milt Schmidt and what other retired players are missing out on.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...of-lockout-cox

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11-22-2012, 07:19 AM
  #537
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Im not sure why 40 game season isnt better than no season. but 50 better than 40 and 64 better than 50. id take a 24 before a 0 though. still hoping this thing gets settled and in such a way everyone can live with it for at least a decade
I agree. I worry about the folks who work at or around the Garden and need the income from their jobs to live. There is more to consider than just hockey.

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11-22-2012, 07:38 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Salem13 View Post
I think the most telling part of anything on TSN has been the responses, for the most part at the bottom of Cole's words people are Praising Hamrlik
One player says end it now another says it's about more than the short term- no surprise who the fans posting on ten would support.

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11-22-2012, 07:56 AM
  #539
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As I said exactly one month ago, there is some dissension among players (just as there is with a few owners). Hamrlik is the first to become vocal about it.

Usually that opens the gates. We'll see

With 241 players losing their jobs during the last lockout, they have to be thinking that's a possibility again if this season is lost. And this time, they'll want the union to be thinking of them not the players of the future.

That's 1/3 of the jobs. And that's Hamrlik`s train of thought.

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11-22-2012, 08:01 AM
  #540
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
As I said exactly one month ago, there is some dissension among players (just as there is with a few owners). Hamrlik is the first to become vocal about it.

Usually that opens the gates. We'll see

With 241 players losing their jobs during the last lockout, they have to be thinking that's a possibility again if this season is lost. And this time, they'll want the union to be thinking of them not the players of the future.

That's 1/3 of the jobs. And that's Hamrlik`s train of thought.
Hamrlik's train of thought is easy to catch being 39 and on the last year of his 3.4 ...

...Cole, well he's 33 and just signed a four year deal.

Cole says he's working for future generations... then you see it's OK to have a 7% reduction over 5 years if you make whole now?

That in fact seems to say the reverse?

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11-22-2012, 08:04 AM
  #541
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
As I said exactly one month ago, there is some dissension among players (just as there is with a few owners). Hamrlik is the first to become vocal about it.

Usually that opens the gates. We'll see

With 241 players losing their jobs during the last lockout, they have to be thinking that's a possibility again if this season is lost. And this time, they'll want the union to be thinking of them not the players of the future.

That's 1/3 of the jobs. And that's Hamrlik`s train of thought.
Hamrlik would certainly be one of em too. 2012-13 is the last year of his deal- on the big fade- turning 39. If this season is lost and the cap shrinks, then he never sees another NHL dollar.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salem13 View Post
Hamrlik's train of thought is easy to catch being 39 and on the last year of his 3.4 ...

...Cole, well he's 33 and just signed a four year deal.

Cole says he's working for future generations... then you see it's OK to have a 7% reduction over 5 years if you make whole now?

That in fact seems to say the reverse?
The deal isn't either/or though. There would be no need for "make whole" if there were no reduction. Besides the "make whole" sets a precedent that ownership isn't allowed to "rollback" salaries again like they did last time around. That is a good legacy to put in place for future negotiations.


Last edited by JMiller: 11-22-2012 at 08:10 AM.
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11-22-2012, 08:22 AM
  #542
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Great that the players can speak, unlike the owners who are muzzled by the fascists Bettman ,Jacobs & co. Not surprising that an overpaid, over-the-hill player like Hamrlik would rather cash in his overpaid contract than think about the future of the game.

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11-22-2012, 08:24 AM
  #543
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Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
A good story about Milt Schmidt and what other retired players are missing out on.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...of-lockout-cox
They're really just worried about future generations. And by future generations I mean their own immediate future.

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11-22-2012, 08:38 AM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
I can't ask those involved, obviously.

But I HAVE asked that to be part of the discussion on the boards, yes. And no one wants to say boo about it. Your mentioning of what you have is the first I've heard.

It seems to me like I'm being called out for my take on the negotiations because these things you know aren't privy to public discourse. I'm trying to take as much information in as I can and interpreting it to the best of my ability. It stinks from what I can smell.

I'll ask this though, since we're in agreement about the PR game: If the league is feeding the players bones to get them to agree to the numbers they want, then why is that information obstructed from the fans? Perhaps you don't know the answer to that, and I don't intend it as a challenge... It just seems so counter-intuitive to me to want to seem like the good guys without expressing the very things that would soften their image.
I'll touch on the last part...and this is just personal opinion (BTW when i speak as an opinion, i stress it is just my opinion - when i contradict a post that provides information - it's because I know it to be different - it won't start with it's strictly my opinion)

The League's major PR game was played when they made one of their proposal's public - the one to save an 82 game schedule.

I think the way they are playing it now - to frustrate the players at every turn - is in itself a PR move because they know that the union will basically self destruct. When Hamrlik comes out and says what he said yesterday, that is the biggest PR the league could get. Reaction from fans overwhelmingly on Hamrlik`s side is proof of that. And the league had everything to do with that. Again, just my opinion, but I think that is what they are gambling on and that is their PR move. They just don't need to make their proposals public for that to happen.

It sucks, I don't like it, but not much any of us can do about it.

A few weeks ago I had said that ( a member of the NHLPA negotiating committee - cant remember who) had said de-certification is an option for the NHLPA. Last night we were hearing now that it is a real serious option for the NHLPA.

Asked a sports lawyer last night via email what would be the purpose of de-certification and she said, in short, that it could be a precursor to filing Anti Trust Suits in the USA.

I won't pretend to know anything about US Anti Trust Laws. In fact I know nothing about it. But again, I'm told its a very strong possibility. Someone else is going to have to explain the circumstances that will arise.

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11-22-2012, 08:40 AM
  #545
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They're really just worried about future generations. And by future generations I mean their own immediate future.
While I feel for them, in the business of hockey this is something very important and should be one of the forefront issues.

Sure it's what, 4 million for 300+ guys now but that number will ONLY GROW over the next decade. 300+ guys who played a year or more over 65 in a 12 team league at the time(?), in less than half decade some of the 18 team league will hit that age.

Granted it should abruptly stop at some point as the need should in fact vanish with modern retirement structures but for the immediate future it is very important.

imho - and i think if the players want some fans to give a dropping we should hear more about this and issues like it

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11-22-2012, 08:51 AM
  #546
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Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
I'll touch on the last part...and this is just personal opinion (BTW when i speak as an opinion, i stress it is just my opinion - when i contradict a post that provides information - it's because I know it to be different - it won't start with it's strictly my opinion)

The League's major PR game was played when they made one of their proposal's public - the one to save an 82 game schedule.

I think the way they are playing it now - to frustrate the players at every turn - is in itself a PR move because they know that the union will basically self destruct. When Hamrlik comes out and says what he said yesterday, that is the biggest PR the league could get. Reaction from fans overwhelmingly on Hamrlik`s side is proof of that. And the league had everything to do with that. Again, just my opinion, but I think that is what they are gambling on and that is their PR move. They just don't need to make their proposals public for that to happen.

It sucks, I don't like it, but not much any of us can do about it.

A few weeks ago I had said that ( a member of the NHLPA negotiating committee - cant remember who) had said de-certification is an option for the NHLPA. Last night we were hearing now that it is a real serious option for the NHLPA.

Asked a sports lawyer last night via email what would be the purpose of de-certification and she said, in short, that it could be a precursor to filing Anti Trust Suits in the USA.

I won't pretend to know anything about US Anti Trust Laws. In fact I know nothing about it. But again, I'm told its a very strong possibility. Someone else is going to have to explain the circumstances that will arise.
The NBA and NFL both did the same thing to little avail after they dissolved their respective unions.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov...labor-20111116
Quote:
Perennial All-Stars Anthony and Durant said the NBA violated antitrust laws and conspired to "boycott players" by attempting to force them to take massive reductions in compensation. The 30 NBA teams were named as defendants in the class-action suit filed in Oakland on behalf of the NBA's 439 players.
Would the league even bother to take it seriously? It would take forever to get to court and we could easily be talking 2 or more lost seasons instead of 1 if the players were to follow through and see it to the end. I've never really understood it as much of a threat as players tend to get desperate well before owners. Lawsuits cost money and take time, owners have far far more of both.

I guess the threat would have to be "we'll tie this up in court so long the NHL (your business) will wither away and die". Who wins then? Certainly not the players. I'm no lawyer, and apparently according to an article I just read stupid because I'm one of those NHL fans that will always come back, but that's what I got from the NBA lockout when all that went down. They dissolved their union, launched their lawsuits, threw out the lawsuits, reformed the union, and basically conceded to the owners on every major issue.


Last edited by Kaoz: 11-22-2012 at 08:56 AM.
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11-22-2012, 09:28 AM
  #547
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http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...oser-to-a-deal

One correction to be made ( or addition ) to Pierre's article on this

Quote:
Somewhere between $211 million and $393 million is your magic number for "make-whole."
The owner's $211 million is over 2 years, the players $393 million is over 4 years.... just to clarify

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11-22-2012, 10:37 AM
  #548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrrOverGretzky View Post
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...oser-to-a-deal

One correction to be made ( or addition ) to Pierre's article on this



The owner's $211 million is over 2 years, the players $393 million is over 4 years.... just to clarify
this deal could be reached before lunch Monday if they want; I still 100% believe the James Dolans, Ed Snyders, and Mike Illitchs are keeping quiet knowing that a deal will be made and the NHL is trying to bleed more out of the NHLPA.

There will be a time Dom, when it will get heated and public on owner vs(and I mean POWERFUL) owner who could wipe his wrinkly old ass with the fine (they will probably never even pay); I think I know who the main owner is going to have the angst directed at.

There is a date of reckoning and it is coming sometime after the next paycheck is missed a week from today.

The owners have won, the players will still do fine and all make a gazillion dollars if they are good- it just depends do the hardliners stop at burning down the village, or do they want to kill all the woman and children. I think a few do, but in the end they will stop and a deal will be made.

If I was Ed Snyder, Gary Bettman works for me, not the other way around. And although I probably am one of the reasons this is going on (helo, Shea Weber) if I am that much of a Richard to make that deal I'm speaking up- and not in January when he hits the big 8-0.

James Dolan is another guy to watch here; and the last thing Gary Betman needs on his tombstone and tagged to him is the inept commish who let 2 years go down the drain.

When the NHL comes to 2024 do they celeberate 100 years of NHL or do they push it back to 2026.

I like the shirts '100 years of hockey....1924-2026'. So NHLish

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11-22-2012, 10:48 AM
  #549
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Andy Strickland said it best- if the player and owners split revenue 50/50 there is enough for everyone to get filthy rich...how true

there may be an owner or two that want blood in the streets, but if the other 28 or so sit by and don't vote in favor of a deal, then many deserve to see their sport suffer, sponsors dump them, maybe even resemble the final days of Atlanta's fan base and interest and go down the toilet and forced to relocate.

I'm sure the owners are waiting for that check right after Thanksgiving and before Christmas to be missed before they try and squeeze the final juices out of whatever deal they will make. Owners will add to the flavor/sting by cancelling the All-Star game and the December games in all or in part, knowing thats about it. time to **** or get off the pot is just about here

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11-22-2012, 11:26 AM
  #550
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^
50/50 isn't happening in NHLPA proposals

They aren't linked proposals ,, Thus they are guaranteeing a share for players and that means there is not truly 50/50 in any year of NHLPA offer

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