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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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Old
11-23-2012, 08:17 AM
  #576
Morris Wanchuk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicSpoon View Post
nhl all star game is about to be canceled
They should cancel it forever.

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Old
11-23-2012, 08:20 AM
  #577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjaustin77 View Post
I know you are throwing out a random number but that is so far from reality.

1st - If the dollar goes to .90 then you are only losing 1/10th of revenue and on Canadian teams only. Canadian teams made up less than 30% of overall revenues. So you are losing 1/10 of only 30% of the revenue. You would also be lowering player expenses in a similar way.

2nd - As a currency is devalued places will just charge more of that currency. The U.S. currency has been declining and U.S. companies keep making more money. The changing currency does very little to change the overall numbers.

This lockout may hurt more if they lose a full season. I believe they will get an agreement sometime soon and there won't be much lost revenue except for the lost games.
Huh?

Please explain that one to me because I just don't get it.

Players are paid in US dollars. A lower Canadian dollar means less revenue and player expenses go up not down. A lower Canadian Dollar means that it costs the Canadian teams more to buy US dollars to pay those players. That's an increase in expense not a decrease.

All other expenses would go up as well, Pension, Health care, travel in the US etc, when they have to convert the lower Canadian Dollar to a higher American Dollar.

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Old
11-23-2012, 08:35 AM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
They should cancel it forever.
I think the last one I watched was the one in Boston.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:00 AM
  #579
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicSpoon View Post
nhl all star game is about to be canceled
it was in columbus anyway. better to not have one then have one in front of 15 people.

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Old
11-23-2012, 09:29 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
it was in columbus anyway. better to not have one then have one in front of 15 people.
Hey, CBJ have good fans. It's just the team that sucks

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:22 AM
  #581
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I don't watch the game but I enjoy the skills comp and the drafting alot, but the seasons done so it really does not matter that they cancelled this unless they only play the allstar game witch would be funny.

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Old
11-23-2012, 10:36 AM
  #582
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Quote:
Tweeted by Michael Grange ‏@michaelgrange:
Just filed on NHLPA and decertification. Talked to uber-NBA player agent Bill Duffy. His advice? "They should have done it 3 months ago."

Quote:
From Bob McKenzie:
Once a union or association is decertified, its legal counsel must seek a preliminary injunction in court that basically says this mass of individual players with contracts is ready, willing and able to fulfill those contracts and that any existing lockout is illegal. And if the court rules in favor of the players, they would be returning to a league with no legal CBA in place and the league would not necessarily have any anti-trust exemptions.

What's that mean in English? The lockout would be considered illegal. No draft, no salary cap, [free agency], no real rules of any kind, in theory. Potentially, it's chaos. Anything that the CBA previously spelled out would, in effect, be gone.
While all true, from a legal standpoint I suppose, what's to stop the owners/league from keeping those all those same rules in place and running the league in the same manner it's always been run? In a word, nothing.

The sticking points, as I understand them, are the revenue split and the payout for the missed games of the season. So, assuming the league through the owners keeps the rules regarding the draft, contracts (EL, UFA and FA), and all the rest in place, and establishes a cap ceiling and floor that works for the them, what's the problem?

I believe there does not need to be chaos, panic in the streets, cats and dogs living together in harmony...none of the end-of-times hysteria the press and the players' union are predicting.

The owners don't want chaos. They want to play hockey, too. But as has been said many times before they do in fact hold all the cards. The press needs to begin asking the owners what they see happening if the players' nightmare scenario should unfold as it appears it might, rather than standing around navel-gazing and predicting the end of the world as we know it.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:01 AM
  #583
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They'd never do it, but it could be fun to have an NFL-esque 18 game season length. Home and home with division rivals and play the every other team in the conference once. The regular season would take about six weeks and the games would be incredibly important. It would "cheapen" the season, but we'd still have playoffs and there would be more variety in who qualifies.

Realistically, is the shortest season they'd play, 48 games?

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:21 AM
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
While all true, from a legal standpoint I suppose, what's to stop the owners/league from keeping those all those same rules in place and running the league in the same manner it's always been run? In a word, nothing.

The sticking points, as I understand them, are the revenue split and the payout for the missed games of the season. So, assuming the league through the owners keeps the rules regarding the draft, contracts (EL, UFA and FA), and all the rest in place, and establishes a cap ceiling and floor that works for the them, what's the problem?

I believe there does not need to be chaos, panic in the streets, cats and dogs living together in harmony...none of the end-of-times hysteria the press and the players' union are predicting.

The owners don't want chaos. They want to play hockey, too. But as has been said many times before they do in fact hold all the cards. The press needs to begin asking the owners what they see happening if the players' nightmare scenario should unfold as it appears it might, rather than standing around navel-gazing and predicting the end of the world as we know it.
Collusion.

The question then would be how many billions would the lawsuit be?

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:29 AM
  #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Collusion.

The question then would be how many billions would the lawsuit be?
Exactly, the draft alone is ridiculously illegal in any setting outside professional sports.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:32 AM
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Collusion.
Collusion between franchises? I wonder if that's not a stretch. Collusion between corporations operating within the same marketplace I get. But this is a collection of NHL franchises and the NHL would establish the rules of governance which all the members -- the teams -- would abide by. This would include contract parameters and league-wide cap.

I really do wonder if collusion would actually provide a legal leg to stand on.

And just because someone tried to make the argument doesn't mean it would work. Does anyone know if a strategy like this has worked in the past?

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11-23-2012, 11:33 AM
  #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobster57 View Post
Exactly, the draft alone is ridiculously illegal in any setting outside professional sports.
This would still be professional sports, though.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:35 AM
  #588
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The threat of decertification is the equivalent of a nuclear stand-off. Both sides know that the weapon exists and (hopefully) both know it would be folly to unleash it.

That said, when ego rules over logic it is always possible the missiles will fly.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:40 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
This would still be professional sports, though.
But it would be professional sports without an anti-trust exemption.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:41 AM
  #590
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I don't think the word "collusion" applies here.

I looked up the word collusion in a couple of online legal dictionaries. I don't believe the word applies regarding the league:

http://thelawdictionary.org/collusion/

What is COLLUSION? A deceitful agreement or compact between two or more persons, for the one party to bring an action against the other for some evil purpose, as to defraud a third party of his right Cowell. A secret arrangement between two or more persons, whose interests are apparently conflicting, to make use of the forms and proceedings of law in order to defraud a third person, or to obtain that which justice would not give them, by deceiving a court or it officers.

collusion n. where two persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating. Collusion can include secret price or wage fixing, secret rebates, or pretending to be independent of each other when actually conspiring together for their joint ends. It can range from small-town shopkeepers or heirs to a grandma's estate, to gigantic electronics companies or big league baseball team owners.


There would be nothing secret about this amongst the members of the league.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:44 AM
  #591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Collusion.

The question then would be how many billions would the lawsuit be?
It could be whatever arbitrary figure they wanted. I'd be surprised if NHL players had the commitment to see it through. They have short careers, decertification and antitrust lawsuits all take quite a bit of time if I'm not mistaken.They lose boatloads of money without any guarantee of a win, and unlike owners have no other real way of making similar money elsewhere. Their lifestyles wouldn't support it and most would suffer right off the hop, for most they could say good bye to their fancy cars, their ridiculously expensive houses, their kids private schooling, and essentially their current lifestyle. More likely you'll see a Disclaimer of interest in the hopes the NHL owners would blink, but I doubt the owners would.

I can't see it panning out for them here when it failed so miserably for players in two other major sports so recently.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:48 AM
  #592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Collusion between franchises? I wonder if that's not a stretch. Collusion between corporations operating within the same marketplace I get. But this is a collection of NHL franchises and the NHL would establish the rules of governance which all the members -- the teams -- would abide by. This would include contract parameters and league-wide cap.

I really do wonder if collusion would actually provide a legal leg to stand on.

And just because someone tried to make the argument doesn't mean it would work. Does anyone know if a strategy like this has worked in the past?
You are wrong.

And the Supreme Court just ruled against the NFL arguing they are one entity.

You can't act in concert with other corporations to depress wages. Their is a reason the owners are already freaking out over decertification and that the NFLPA filed for it, followed quickly by an agreement.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:52 AM
  #593
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nothing says sports talk like defining terms in a law dictionary.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:52 AM
  #594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
You are wrong.

And the Supreme Court just ruled against the NFL arguing they are one entity.
Got a link? I saw something as I was looking through antitrust articles but it seemed to imply that this was being revisited and not settled.

And are you arguing collusion or antitrust? Sounds like antitrust to me.

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11-23-2012, 11:54 AM
  #595
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
It could be whatever arbitrary figure they wanted. I'd be surprised if NHL players had the commitment to see it through. They have short careers, decertification and antitrust lawsuits all take quite a bit of time if I'm not mistaken.They lose boatloads of money without any guarantee of a win, and unlike owners have no other real way of making similar money elsewhere. Their lifestyles wouldn't support it and most would suffer right off the hop, for most they could say good bye to their fancy cars, their ridiculously expensive houses, their kids private schooling, and essentially their current lifestyle. More likely you'll see a Disclaimer of interest in the hopes the NHL owners would blink, but I doubt the owners would.

I can't see it panning out for them here when it failed so miserably for players in two other major sports so recently.
Whether or not they should is very different from what Reggie is saying. Reggie thinks the owners could then just do whatever they want by aggreeing to follow certain rules.

And how did it fail for the NFLPA? It was a major step in getting the owners to agree to a deal. The NBAPA waited too long to do it for it to have the same impact, but how did it fail for them exactly?

You are right, do the players want to play or get paid more? But if they decretify and the courts say the owners have to pay them their current contracts, plus an anti-trust case that could cost the owners billions........not sure I get why this is bad for the players if they feel they have no other choice.

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Old
11-23-2012, 11:55 AM
  #596
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
Got a link? I saw something as I was looking through antitrust articles but it seemed to imply that this was being revisited and not settled.

And are you arguing collusion or antitrust? Sounds like antitrust to me.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5214509

Who is revisiting it? The SUPREME Supreme Court? It is settled.

And you are arguing that 30 separate business owners can work in concert to depress wages. That is collusion. It could not be collusion in any clearer sense.


Last edited by EverettMike: 11-23-2012 at 12:04 PM. Reason: 30, not 32
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Old
11-23-2012, 12:31 PM
  #597
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Whether or not they should is very different from what Reggie is saying. Reggie thinks the owners could then just do whatever they want by aggreeing to follow certain rules.

And how did it fail for the NFLPA? It was a major step in getting the owners to agree to a deal. The NBAPA waited too long to do it for it to have the same impact, but how did it fail for them exactly?

You are right, do the players want to play or get paid more? But if they decretify and the courts say the owners have to pay them their current contracts, plus an anti-trust case that could cost the owners billions........not sure I get why this is bad for the players if they feel they have no other choice.
It failed for the NFLPA when the lockout was upheld by the courts. Now there has been a precedent set, not that that means the NHLPA couldn't be successful, just that it is less likely. Of course they could still file antitrust suits but with the lockout still in place there isn't much sense in that. They'd be broke and ruined before it was ever ruled a win or loss. The lockout broke, players share went from 58% to 48%. That was the major concession and won by the owners.

In the NBA, the players lost just about all major concessions including lowering the players share to 50%. They ended up signing the proposal the owners were pushing anyway. I believe the common opinion is that the players lost big on the last CBA, so I think it's safe to say the decertification threat didn't really accomplish anything for them.

In both cases the lockouts did end, but in both cases it seems the owners got exactly what they wanted, an even 50/50 split. I don't think it's bad for the players, it's one of the few things in their arsenal they can realistically use to sway owners at this point. That said, common sense says it's just a threat on the players part, that they aren't likely to follow it through. Perhaps if they got a court ruling to lift the lockout it might work in their favor as they could at least draw a paycheck while it drags out, but judging by what happened with the NFLPA that would be an uphill battle. They could setting for the 50/50 split right now and get a little bit of make whole money. If they continue to wait that make whole money no doubt shrinks and the players get less.


Last edited by Kaoz*: 11-23-2012 at 12:36 PM.
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Old
11-23-2012, 12:39 PM
  #598
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What a gong show this whole situation ended up being. And to think I actually thought these guys would put on their big boy pants and try to compromise.

You've got civil unrest with some of the players questioning the NHLPA. You've got others sniffing the jock strap of Daly and Fehr. Both of those nimrods are licking their chops at all of this. Bettman thinks he's Julius Caeser, while giving thumbs up or down to each proposal.

Its pathetic. Can we hire Bob Kraft, please? Can he just show up at one of the meetings and tell them to stop? I'm starting not to care about this anymore. And it hurts.

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Old
11-23-2012, 01:28 PM
  #599
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not that it matters but:

NHL CANCELS ALL-STAR WEEKEND AND GAMES THROUGH DEC. 14

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11-23-2012, 01:33 PM
  #600
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Originally Posted by Mione134 View Post
What a gong show this whole situation ended up being. And to think I actually thought these guys would put on their big boy pants and try to compromise.

You've got civil unrest with some of the players questioning the NHLPA. You've got others sniffing the jock strap of Daly and Fehr. Both of those nimrods are licking their chops at all of this. Bettman thinks he's Julius Caeser, while giving thumbs up or down to each proposal.

Its pathetic. Can we hire Bob Kraft, please? Can he just show up at one of the meetings and tell them to stop? I'm starting not to care about this anymore. And it hurts.
Still say its scripted and the owners will make a deal when they want to- probably after the next missed pay check on Thursday the 29th they will start to inch closer and closer. The players will miss the one on December 13th and then we will see something coming down,,,,Christmas coming....players in Europe coming home for the holidays

I thought they'd have settled by mid November at the latest but I guess when you come this far why not go all the way into December and really put the feet to the fire. I like the 15th (Milt Schmidt, Dustin Pedroia) so I'll amend my settlement date to by then.

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