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2012 CBA Discussion Part IV (Lockout talk here)

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11-29-2012, 12:16 PM
  #901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EverettMike View Post
Where did the core of those Red Wings teams come from? Drafting.

And then they spent to keep it together and add the pices they needed.

The Rangers tried to buy Cups, they failed. The Red Wings did everything well, including using their money well. Jacobs did not care about winning, so he didn't.

And you missed the point. Jacobs only spent when he knew it was a fail-safe. He never cared about winning until he could so and make money. Doesn't mean he deserves ridicule or scorn, but he sure as **** doesn't deserve praise.

He was more concerned about money then, just as he is now.
He's a business owner...that's his priority and that's the way it should be. What kind of profit were the Bruins turning back then?

Once he got cost certainty (Almost an impossibility in the business world), and told his people spend all the money you can...

People are still so hung up on the "Bourque" years it's pathetic IMO after we have seen how he operates when there is a stone cold guidelline.

As far as the Wings...Hull, Robitaille, Chelios, Larionov, Hasek and Shanahan were hardly homegrown in 01-02 were they? As far as the two 90's teams they added guys like Shanahan, Larionov, Sandstrom, Vernon and Fetisov at a pretty penny...You act like they acquired guys like Peverley and Kelly.

They were the Yankees of the NHL.


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11-29-2012, 12:26 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
You did:

My response was to that statement. If you're open to the idea of 51/49, then how about 52/48? If not, why not?

The statement that it MUST be 50/50 is one based on the belief that it MUST be based on an arbitrary number. Unless one can outline how the league can take in 50% of revenue and be hunky-dory, while being in the ***** for taking in 48%.

The players' numbers are anything BUT arbitrary. The players' numbers exist on their current contracts and on the restrictions of escrow outlined in the previous CBA.
I did what?

And honestly, I haven't seen the actual numbers because let's be realistic, I'm a poster on HFboards so therefore I can't provide them to you. My comments are (a) based on the only numbers that we as fans have available to us and (b) based on what the owners have outlined throughout the lockout.

I've also read through the article Dom just posted. It potentially paints an even more dramatic picture. If Forbes is overestimating American teams revenue and underestimating Canadian teams revenue there could be an even more drastic divide. End of the day, none of the numbers we have available should be treated as gospel but that won't stop us from forming opinions.

To be clear, I don't believe even a 50/50 split will resolve the issues. I believe they arrived at that number because there is an easy precedence to prove with both the NBA and NFL PA, two leagues bringing in more revenue each season, arriving at the same numbers. Why not a 51/49 split? Why not a 52/48? Because I'd sooner the teams get closer to making money then further away. Moreover, I think a salary capped at 12 million a season is more then enough for any pro athlete.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Make-Believe View Post
You said that we COULDN'T compare revenue-sharing with the NFL. And you're RIGHT. We can't. The revenues they pull are vastly different than what we see in hockey.

But if it's invalid to compare with other leagues, then it's kind of... It's kind of invalid to compare with other leagues. You know what I mean? We can use some general guidelines, but staunch stances on specific numbers is an effort to pick and choose evidence that supports nothing but one's own view.
No, I didn't and honestly I'd appreciate you stop putting words in my mouth (on my fingers? whatever, you get the idea). You just quoted me asking "if we can't compare the leagues on one level, why can we on another". You'll see that this was in direct response to bp's post in which he stated we shouldn't as I had been. I've been comparing the leagues and the revenue splits from the start and see no issues with doing so. If the NBA and NFL PA's deem 50% split a fair shake why should NHL players feel entitled to more? Yes, what makes up the NFL and NBA revenue streams are different (more so NFL) but you're still looking at revenue as a whole for the league. If you wanted to get down into it and start looking at what makes up that revenue and what expenses are paid out by each league respectively, you'll be making a better argument for the players share in the NHL decreasing even lower then the NFLPA and NBAPA agreed to.

Again, I think both the NFL and NBA PA's settling at 50/50 is paramount in NHL owners asking for the same figure. The fact that many NHL teams are losing money is the driving force yes, and no doubt the owners would prefer a more lopsided split because it would address more issues, but a 50/50 split is a battle easier won due to precedent in other leagues.


Last edited by Kaoz: 11-29-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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Old
11-29-2012, 12:39 PM
  #903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roll 4 Lines View Post
I don't know off the top of my head how many of those players were signed as free agents, but in fairness, the Wings drafted extremely well for quite a number of years.

Maybe they were just paying many of their home grown players well?

Something that the Bruins were not accused of back then, although I suspect Sinden shares much, if not most of that blame pie.

Edit: I should have read the whole thread before responding...sorry for the redundancy!
His business model was different then some of the other teams. He was in business to turn a profit. He dealt with cost uncertainty year after year and spent about league average...Once a cap was in place, he spent right up to the cap. He often spent more real dollars as well with guys like Savard, Chara and Thomas over their cap number. Who cares how he "used" to be. Different time, different set of rules. He has given his people every resource available to ice a competitive team....Cripes he swallowed Lewis, Schaeffer's and Murray's deals as well...if he was truly the beast some of you say, would he have went 4 mil over the cap during our Cup run? How about committing all that money to Seguin, Lucic, Krejci and Marchand? BasHing Jacobs is like harping on the choke job of the century vs Philly instead of winning the Cup...


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11-29-2012, 01:13 PM
  #904
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@mattsekeres: Am told by 2 NHL sources that #Bruins owner Jeremy Jacobs forced employees to pay tax on 2011 Stanley Cup rings. About $7K per ring. Cont...

@mattsekeres: Some support staff couldn't afford the tax up front, so players stepped up and covered the cost so they could get rings too.
Tax laws explained below. Not much Jacobs could do.


Last edited by bruinsfan46: 11-29-2012 at 01:31 PM.
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11-29-2012, 01:18 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
Oh Jacobs

Vancouver radio guy, unsure of the validity of sources.
Disgusting.

Happy the players helped them.

Edit - Didn't know about the tax law.. That sucks.


Last edited by Ivyy13: 11-29-2012 at 01:28 PM.
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11-29-2012, 01:19 PM
  #906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
His business model was different then some of the other teams. He was in business to turn a profit. He dealt with cost uncertainty year after year and spent about league average...Once a cap was in place, he spent right up to the cap. He often spent more real dollars as well with guys like Savard, Chara and Thomas over their cap number. Who cares how he "used" to be. Different time, different set of rules. He has given his people every resource available to ice a competitive team....Cripes he swallowed Lewis, Schaeffer's and Murray's deals as well...if he was truly the beast some of you say, would he have went 4 mil over the cap during our Cup run? How about committing all that money to Seguin, Lucic, Krejci and Marchand? BasHing Jacobs is like harping on the choke job of the century vs Philly instead of winning the Cup...

Man. Could not agree with you more.

It's easy to side against Jacobs or any owner for that matter. They aren't particularly likeable, they don't don our team's sweater and play the game and they are filthy stinkin' rich which is nearly a crime in this Country nowadays. Easy to hate.

But just like the players, the owners want money too. owners, CEOs and the like aren't in the business of breaking even. They aren't even in the business of being modestly successful.. they take on the risk and keep the product competitive and entertaining because they want to make a lot of money. I don't see anything wrong with that. I wish more people aspired to be this way because we'd have more success in general I think.

It's a little different because I think most team owners, especially in the NHL treat their teams like a hobby rather than a legitimate business venture but that doesn't mean owners will be willing to operate at a loss, break even or even support failing teams. If it's no longer worth the investment, owners will simply stop investing and may just call it quits altogether.

They aren't exactly innocent in all this either, don't get me wrong. Just putting my two cents

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11-29-2012, 01:21 PM
  #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
Oh Jacobs

Vancouver radio guy, unsure of the validity of sources.
forced them to pay the tax?

That's like saying Oprah "forced" her studio audience to pay the tax on their brand new cars.

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11-29-2012, 01:21 PM
  #908
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You do realize that the Feds and the State of MA have gift tax laws that set a max amount a gift can be and anything over that is taxed at a higher rate than the normal 5.25%.

Jacobs didn't force them to pay it, the State and Feds did.

Don't be so quick to villify a man who was following the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_ta..._United_States

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11-29-2012, 01:25 PM
  #909
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How can you force someone to pay income tax? It's the law after all, they would have had to pay it regardless.

I doubt he could have given them the rings AND give them extra cash to cover the taxes as that would have been taxed too.

I can't wait for the next cruel thing that JJ did to come out.

Any guesses?

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11-29-2012, 01:26 PM
  #910
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I heard JJ waters down the gatorade!

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11-29-2012, 01:28 PM
  #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
You do realize that the Feds and the State of MA have gift tax laws that set a max amount a gift can be and anything over that is taxed at a higher rate than the normal 5.25%.

Jacobs didn't force them to pay it, the State and Feds did.

Don't be so quick to villify a man who was following the law.
Agreed. I think some people are upset or "disgusted" because he didn't give each of those people a $7,000 check along with the ring?

Also.. wasn't each ring "only" worth $10,000? How the hell did the taxes amount to $7k per ring?

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11-29-2012, 01:28 PM
  #912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruinsfan46 View Post
Oh Jacobs

Vancouver radio guy, unsure of the validity of sources.
Amazing a Vancouver radio guy comes up with this now.

Some other gems:

any bruins fan who buys tickets to see the team whenever hockey starts again is basically an *******
ryan lambert (@twolinepass)

Honestly, anybody who steps up and attempts to defend Jacobs at this stage is saying more about themselves than they are about him.
Adam Proteau (@Proteautype) November 29, 2012

Seriously, when hockey is back if Bruins fans don't boo Jacobs at least as passionately as they boo Kessel then they're part of the problem.
Down Goes Brown (@DownGoesBrown) November 29, 2012

Why not just say "any Bruin fan that remains a Bruin fan after this lockout is over should be ashamed of himself"... signed The Vancouver Canucks media, Toronto Maple Leafs media, and a bunch of other people who'll jump at any excuse to hate the Bruins even more.

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11-29-2012, 01:31 PM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patty59 View Post
How can you force someone to pay income tax? It's the law after all, they would have had to pay it regardless.

I doubt he could have given them the rings AND give them extra cash to cover the taxes as that would have been taxed too.

I can't wait for the next cruel thing that JJ did to come out.

Any guesses?
that's actually a good point, lol


Jacobs had over 500 rings made to be given out to the staff in Boston. Are we really going to bag on him for not slipping each of them several thousands of dollars 'under the table' to pay for the taxes on it? I mean come on now.

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11-29-2012, 01:32 PM
  #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
that's actually a good point, lol


Jacobs had over 500 rings made to be given out to the staff in Boston. Are we really going to bag on him for not slipping each of them several thousands of dollars 'under the table' to pay for the taxes on it? I mean come on now.
Hahaha, 3.5mill in taxes. What an *******!

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11-29-2012, 01:33 PM
  #915
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Morris Wanchuk: Bruins fan that is happy Jacobs has so much power to change NHL's economic landscape, because being a fan between 1994-2004 sucked.

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11-29-2012, 01:41 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
Agreed. I think some people are upset or "disgusted" because he didn't give each of those people a $7,000 check along with the ring?

Also.. wasn't each ring "only" worth $10,000? How the hell did the taxes amount to $7k per ring?
Estimates have the value as high as $30K.


Last edited by bruinsfan46: 11-29-2012 at 01:47 PM.
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11-29-2012, 01:42 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
that's actually a good point, lol


Jacobs had over 500 rings made to be given out to the staff in Boston. Are we really going to bag on him for not slipping each of them several thousands of dollars 'under the table' to pay for the taxes on it? I mean come on now.
Estimated that each ring cost between $20-25K from what i could find quickly. If this is the case, they were taxed on $10-15K of additional income at 35% at the Federal level.


Last edited by Alicat: 11-29-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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11-29-2012, 01:48 PM
  #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
Estimated that each ring cost between $20-25K. if this is the case they were taxed on $10-15K of additional income at 35% at the Federal level.
so if true, they had to pay ~5000 in federal income tax and then the rest (if that $7k figure is correct), was MA state income/gift tax?

Either way.. that's a lot of ****ing taxes for a gift. Pretty messed up that you can't give an extravagant gift to someone out of fear of the government bankrupting them. heh

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11-29-2012, 01:51 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
so if true, they had to pay ~5000 in federal income tax and then the rest (if that $7k figure is correct), was MA state income/gift tax?

Either way.. that's a lot of ****ing taxes for a gift. Pretty messed up that you can't give an extravagant gift to someone out of fear of the government bankrupting them. heh
MA tax is 35% I believe for gifts ect.

I know I get hosed on my bonus checks. $900 went to $590.

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11-29-2012, 01:52 PM
  #920
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
so if true, they had to pay ~5000 in federal income tax and then the rest (if that $7k figure is correct), was MA state income/gift tax?

Either way.. that's a lot of ****ing taxes for a gift. Pretty messed up that you can't give an extravagant gift to someone out of fear of the government bankrupting them. heh
The Wiki link says there's exemptions for gifts received under $13,000 a year, no idea about state laws. Some employees might wish they made cheaper rings. Sucks that it works out that way for someone who answers phones for a living but that's the law.

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11-29-2012, 01:57 PM
  #921
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Lost in all this, great group of player the Bruins have to step in and cover such a cost.

I think I'll just keep on being proud to be a Bruins fan no matter what Twitter tells me to do.

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11-29-2012, 02:01 PM
  #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
Man. Could not agree with you more.

It's easy to side against Jacobs or any owner for that matter. They aren't particularly likeable, they don't don our team's sweater and play the game and they are filthy stinkin' rich which is nearly a crime in this Country nowadays. Easy to hate.

But just like the players, the owners want money too. owners, CEOs and the like aren't in the business of breaking even. They aren't even in the business of being modestly successful.. they take on the risk and keep the product competitive and entertaining because they want to make a lot of money. I don't see anything wrong with that. I wish more people aspired to be this way because we'd have more success in general I think.

It's a little different because I think most team owners, especially in the NHL treat their teams like a hobby rather than a legitimate business venture but that doesn't mean owners will be willing to operate at a loss, break even or even support failing teams. If it's no longer worth the investment, owners will simply stop investing and may just call it quits altogether.

They aren't exactly innocent in all this either, don't get me wrong. Just putting my two cents
Great post...You always sum things up far better then I ever could.

Goes the same way for players...Once a player gets paid, fans generally spew off fair amounts of vitriol for every little slump, or bad play, or slump....Exhibit A see Lucic, Milan.

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11-29-2012, 02:02 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by SerenityRick View Post
Agreed. I think some people are upset or "disgusted" because he didn't give each of those people a $7,000 check along with the ring?
Which also would have been taxed.

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11-29-2012, 02:04 PM
  #924
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No real place for this but:

Quote:

https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie

Erie Otters fire head coach Robbie Ftorek. Kris Knoblauch has agreed, in principle, to take over.

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11-29-2012, 02:05 PM
  #925
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Morris Wanchuk: Bruins fan that is happy Jacobs has so much power to change NHL's economic landscape, because being a fan between 1994-2004 sucked.
Exactly my man. Jacobs wasn't going to play by the rules set forth by the Rangers, RedWings and Flyers or the world. He was interested in actually making money..the gall of a business owner!

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