-controls the entire game when he's on the ice
-better offensively
there's two obvious ones
Yep and Stevens was able to take control of playoffs series. Pronger was better offensively but Stevens was downright the most dominant defensive defence-man of the dead puck era.
That's a pretty close call. Anyone who said Pronger > Stevens has shown full bias. Both were the epitome of Elite players. Picking one over the other is only a matter of personal preference and nothing more, come on.
Wow, some don't remember Stevens it seems. I'm a big Pronger fan, but Stevens was an offensive dynamo for a while, putting up 60+ and 70+ points, then became one of the best shutdown guy I've seen in my lifetime.
Pair that up with Neidermayer and to me it's not really that close, Stevens!
I think people forget how wonderful of a two way talent Stevens was. Before NJ's prime years he was a dominant offensive defenseman, and in NJ he was arguably the best shutdown defenseman in the league. He was basically a Shea Weber like talent. I don't think Pronger>Stevens is as easy a call as people make it out to be, although an argument for it is fair. Myself, i'd take Stevens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerk Store
Wow, some don't remember Stevens it seems. I'm a big Pronger fan, but Stevens was an offensive dynamo for a while, putting up 60+ and 70+ points, then became one of the best shutdown guy I've seen in my lifetime.
Pair that up with Neidermayer and to me it's not really that close, Stevens!
Stevens had five 60+ seasons, two of which cleared 70.
The thing is this, though:
Assuming that we are intended to only evaluate the block of time when the players played together, and the players as they were, then Stevens' big offensive years cannot be included. Because he put three 60+ and one 70+ up while playing a "******* defense" style in Washington in the 1980s. He did have his 78-point year in 1993-94, and finished second in Norris voting. But other than that year and his 57 points in 1992-93 (Niedermayer's rookie season) he was a sub-30 defenseman while Niedermayer was there, aside from 31 points in 2000-01.
Not exactly a two-way dynamo. Star offensive defenseman who switched to a defensive style? Yes.
Pronger was a top defenseman at both ends; he didn't have to give up his offense to provide top level defense. Furthermore, Niedermayer was better as a Duck than as a Devil. And finally, Pronger had some of his best years as a Duck.
Stevens and Pronger were rarely paired with Niedermayer, but Stevens and Niedermayer were teammates for awhile and won a lot together so I'll go with them.
-controls the entire game when he's on the ice
-better offensively
there's two obvious ones
Stevens controlled the entire playstyle of opposing forwards and had many playoff series changing hits. Nobody carried the puck across the blue line into the zone if he knew Stevens was on the ice. I'd say that's pretty good control of a game.
Stevens was excellent offensively in his prime, and even once Lemaire convinced him to focus on defence, he was still very capable of contributing offensively too. He hovered around 25-30 points a season for the rest of his career, which is respectable during the dead puck era.
People are seriously underrating the Stevens-Niedermayer duo, or maybe they have just forgotten about them
The fact that it's basically even means people are not doing as you suggest. Niedermayer was better both ways when he played with Pronger. Pronger is/was significantly better offensively than Stevens in their respective times with Niedermayer. And the defense and physical games were close. This really shouldn't be close.
Stevens had two seasons over 70 points, as well as another 3 over 60.
Only one of those came while Stevens and Niedermayer were on the same team.
In '93-'94 Stevens and Niedermayer combined for 124 points in 164 games.
In '06-'07 Pronger and Niedermayer combined for 128 points in 145 games.
These are the best combined season totals for the two.
Stevens never scored over 31 points following his monster '93-'94 season where he scored 78. The 2nd best point total for the Devils duo was 97 points in 161 games, 3rd is 83 points in 161 games. There's a fair sized drop off in offensive production after this.
In the two other seasons Pronger and Niedermayer played together, they combined for 68 points in 120 games (pace for 93 points over 164 games) and 107 points in 164 games.
Even just looking at the best years the Devils duo had, clearly the Ducks duo has the edge offensively. We can argue Stevens vs Pronger defensively all night long, but I don't think anyone is going to argue with the fact that Ducks Niedermayer >> Devils Niedermayer defensively, certainly by a larger margin than you could argue Stevens over Pronger IMO.
Having said all that, I think the Ducks duo is clearly the better of the two.
Only one of those came while Stevens and Niedermayer were on the same team.
In '93-'94 Stevens and Niedermayer combined for 124 points in 164 games.
In '06-'07 Pronger and Niedermayer combined for 128 points in 145 games.
These are the best combined season totals for the two.
Stevens never scored over 31 points following his monster '93-'94 season where he scored 78. The 2nd best point total for the Devils duo was 97 points in 161 games, 3rd is 83 points in 161 games. There's a fair sized drop off in offensive production after this.
In the two other seasons Pronger and Niedermayer played together, they combined for 68 points in 120 games (pace for 93 points over 164 games) and 107 points in 164 games.
Even just looking at the best years the Devils duo had, clearly the Ducks duo has the edge offensively. We can argue Stevens vs Pronger defensively all night long, but I don't think anyone is going to argue with the fact that Ducks Niedermayer >> Devils Niedermayer defensively, certainly by a larger margin than you could argue Stevens over Pronger IMO.
Having said all that, I think the Ducks duo is clearly the better of the two.
You're comparing two different eras here. The game in 1994 was a hell of a lot different from the game in 2006. Comparing their offensive production is nearly meaningless because of that. Of course it's going to be slanted toward the Anaheim pairing, because the league as a whole was scoring more.
You're also not comparing the same Niedermayer. Of course he'd score more as a more experienced player than he did as a kid.
The fact that it's basically even means people are not doing as you suggest. Niedermayer was better both ways when he played with Pronger. Pronger is/was significantly better offensively than Stevens in their respective times with Niedermayer. And the defense and physical games were close. This really shouldn't be close.
I don't think their defensive and physical "games" as you say are close. Stevens changed how teams played the game.
You're comparing two different eras here. The game in 1994 was a hell of a lot different from the game in 2006. Comparing their offensive production is nearly meaningless because of that. Of course it's going to be slanted toward the Anaheim pairing, because the league as a whole was scoring more.
You're also not comparing the same Niedermayer. Of course he'd score more as a more experienced player than he did as a kid.
Well I don't really have a choice but to compare between eras. It's fair to bring up the monster offensive seasons Stevens had (when he wasn't even with Niedermayer no less) in the 80s but I can't compare the scoring of the two duos because they were in different eras? What sense does that make?
Obviously I'm not comparing the same Niedermayer, Niedermayer never played simultaneously for the Devils and the Ducks... How can we even discuss this without comparing Niedermayer as a Duck to Niedermayer as a Devil? The way you're suggesting we should approach this would just mean we're just doing Stevens vs Pronger, which is not the point of this thread. Not to mention it also necessitates comparing between eras.
In the years Pronger-Niedermayer was a duo, NHL scoring was at 5.89, 5.57 and 5.83 goals per game. The highest scoring years when the Devils duo existed, the scoring was at 7.25, 6.48 and 6.29 goals per game. The actual years where they scored the most points it was at 7.25, 6.48 and 5.28 goals per game.
So yeah, if you were to adjust by scoring by era, it would make it even clearer that the Ducks duo is superior offensively.
