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Rob Blake vs. Brian Rafalski

View Poll Results: Who would you rather have on your team?
Rob Blake 115 92.74%
Brian Rafalski 9 7.26%
Voters: 124. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-19-2012, 04:08 PM
  #51
Elvs
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Niedermayer/Beauchemin was the shutdown line? So Salei and Vishnevski were what, the offensive unit? Or Pronger/Salei, after Pronger got there? Niedermayer's pair was the OFFENSIVE pairing. He may have been solid defensively, but they used him for offense. It is shown in his 60+ point seasons.
Niedermayer/Beauchemin was the best offensive pairing, but also the best defensive pairing on the team. Pronger and Salei never played on the Ducks at the same time. Pronger was paired with Sean O'Donnell, which defenitely took some defensive pressure away from Nieds/Beuch, but they still weren't the main shutdown pairing.

The biggest question I have about your reasoning: why can't the best offensive pairing also play a shutdown role? Keith and Seabrook are Chicago's best offensively, and they are defenitely their shutdown pairing. Just as Visnovsky/Lydman, while being the Ducks best offensive pairing, also were one of the best defensive units in the league in 10/11. Since Chara and Weber produce the numbers they do, are you saying that they aren't good shutdown defensemen?


Last edited by Elvs: 11-19-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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Old
11-19-2012, 04:18 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Niedermayer/Beauchemin was the shutdown line? So Salei and Vishnevski were what, the offensive unit? Or Pronger/Salei, after Pronger got there? Niedermayer's pair was the OFFENSIVE pairing. He may have been solid defensively, but they used him for offense. It is shown in his 60+ point seasons.

But still, Niedermayer was never anywhere near Lidstrom's universe defensively. And 2003-04 - when Lidstrom scored only 38 points - is the only season where Niedermayer outscored Lidstrom. Lidstrom's average outside of that season is 61 points per 82 games. Niedermayer's total that season? 54 points, one of only four years in his career that he scored 50+.

Myth: Peak Niedermayer was as good as Peak Lidstrom.

Reality: Average Lidstrom was better than Peak Niedermayer.
Wow... you really have no clue what you're talking about, do you?

First off, it would be pretty hard for Pronger to play with Salei, when Pronger came to Anaheim in 2006-2007, and Salei was in Florida by then. Pronger was paired with O'Donnell, and they spent most of their time playing with Anaheim's top six. Scott Niedermayer and Beauchemin played almost their entire time, save special teams, with the Pahlsson line. The only time Pronger was ever used in the primary shutdown role at even strength in Anaheim was when he was paired with Niedermayer, and that was only against offensive lines such as Ottawa's line in the playoffs.

You clearly have no idea what Anaheim's lines and pairings were. You've got it in your head that Niedermayer wasn't particularly good defensively, and so you have all of these other players ahead of him on Anaheim's depth chart, but that isn't how it played out. Niedermayer was Carlyle's key shutdown defenseman. Your argument that Niedermayer's points prove he was used primarily in an offensive role flies in the face of what Anaheim fans actually saw.


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Old
11-19-2012, 04:20 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
Niedermayer/Beauchemin was the best offensive pairing, but also the best defensive pairing on the team. Pronger and Salei never played on the Ducks at the same time. Pronger was paired with Sean O'Donnell, which defenitely took some shutdown duties away from Nieds/Beuch.

But why can't the best offensive pairing also play a shutdown role? Keith and Seabrook are Chicago's best offensively, and they are defenitely their shutdown pairing. Just as Visnovsky/Lydman, while being the Ducks best offensive pairing, also were one of the best defensive units in the league in 10/11.
They can. Lidstrom did it for years. By eva's own logic, Lidstrom couldn't have been used in a shutdown capacity because he put up great offensive numbers.

eva just can't look at Niedermayer objectively. He's actually dismissing Niedermayer's accomplishments entirely, because he doesn't think he deserves them.

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11-19-2012, 04:27 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
eva just can't look at Niedermayer objectively. He's actually dismissing Niedermayer's accomplishments entirely, because he doesn't think he deserves them.
Either that or he never saw Niedermayer play post 2003.

Nieds from 2003 to 2007 was nearly on the same level as Lidstrom. After the 2005-06 season even Dave Taylor (the Kings GM at the time) said Niedermayer was robbed of the Norris that year and if he played in a bigger market would have won it in a landslide. Without Nieds in 05-06 the Ducks would have been competing for a lottery pick.

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11-19-2012, 04:34 PM
  #55
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Either that or he never saw Niedermayer play post 2003.

Nieds from 2003 to 2007 was nearly on the same level as Lidstrom. After the 2005-06 season even Dave Taylor (the Kings GM at the time) said Niedermayer was robbed of the Norris that year and if he played in a bigger market would have won it in a landslide. Without Nieds in 05-06 the Ducks would have been competing for a lottery pick.
That single season performance from Niedermayer was the best I've seen in an Anaheim uniform. It was almost like the regular season equivalent of 2003 post-season Giguere. The Ducks went as Niedermayer did.

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11-20-2012, 06:57 PM
  #56
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Humor me...
Create the poll and lets see...

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11-20-2012, 09:27 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Elvstrand View Post
Niedermayer/Beauchemin was the best offensive pairing, but also the best defensive pairing on the team. Pronger and Salei never played on the Ducks at the same time. Pronger was paired with Sean O'Donnell, which defenitely took some defensive pressure away from Nieds/Beuch, but they still weren't the main shutdown pairing.
For this, the fact that I put in Salei's name by mistake invalidates my argument? I'll remember from now on the HFBoards lesson that when people make minor errors, it completely invalidates not only their line of thinking but everything they've ever said.

Quote:
The biggest question I have about your reasoning: why can't the best offensive pairing also play a shutdown role? Keith and Seabrook are Chicago's best offensively, and they are defenitely their shutdown pairing. Just as Visnovsky/Lydman, while being the Ducks best offensive pairing, also were one of the best defensive units in the league in 10/11. Since Chara and Weber produce the numbers they do, are you saying that they aren't good shutdown defensemen?
I was bringing up the point because Niedermayer put up his best offensive seasons, by far, while playing in Anaheim when skilled defenders in Salei, Vishnevski, Pronger, O'Donnell, etc. were playing on other pairings. In New Jersey, he played with Colin White in 2004, and didn't do significantly worse offensively than his Anaheim performances. But the fact remains, his offense increased in Anaheim, when he went to play for a team with more defensively capable defensemen than New Jersey at the time - Stevens retired after 2003-04, remaining defensemen were Rafalski, White, Martin, Hale, and Albelin.

As for Chara and Weber; Chara is absolutely a top shut down defenseman, and he's added offense to his game over the years. Weber I think is good but overrated defensively, much like Blake was. Suter's defensive game and role as the safety net has protected Weber. No one knows if he can maintain it without Suter. That said, we don't know whether Suter can maintain the same kind of offensive production sans Weber.

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