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National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Rank them: Doughty, Pietrangelo, Letang, Karlsson

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:02 PM
  #251
Sureves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
Well then, Karlsson is SO GOOD, that he is the first player in the history of the game, that the coach doesn't want out there in every situation.

And how does that, or anything that you wrote make any sense. Seriously man, you are grasping at straws.
If you can't understand such a simple analogy I don't know what to tell you. You agree that it makes more sense to make tables rather than chairs in that analogy, right?...

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:18 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by journeyman79 View Post
A team's chance of getting scored on goes up dramatically when they're down a man therefore making the penalty kill more important than an extra amount of even strength ice time. (because it would be ridiculous to think Karlsson would get no even strength ice time if he killed penalties)
Well essentially you're making the argument that the PK for a defenseman is more important than ES.

I would say that in Karlsson's case, we can quite easily find a close-enough substitute for him on the PK who can do the job adequately, but we are much more hardpressed to find a substitute who can do what he can at ES.

To continue the metaphor, if we have a subsidiary in the area that also produces tables and chairs and has a profit margin on chairs of $10 and a profit margin of $5 on tables, it makes more sense to have that subsidiary make the chairs than tables which would allow us to do what we do best: making tables.

Even though we are better than the subsidiary at making BOTH chairs and tables, we are just SO much better at making tables that obviously we are going to make tables.

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Old
11-21-2012, 02:18 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
Great defense =/= going on the PK...

Everyone's favorite two-way forward (Datsyuk) has averaged a minute per game in the PK in the last two seasons; Karlsson has averaged about the same.

The Stamkos comment is a complete non sequitur. Karlsson doesn't get his points by hanging on the slot and hoping the puck comes to him, he gets points by making awesome plays in transition, completing great long passes, finding the open man in a cycle, pinching smartly and showing marksmanship from the point.
In the words of Hitchcock, EK is a great offense man. Datsyuk isn't even a defencemen, not sure why that's relevant.

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11-21-2012, 02:26 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Durrr View Post
In the words of Hitchcock, EK is a great offense man. Datsyuk isn't even a defencemen, not sure why that's relevant.
That "offense man" won the Norris over his star defenseman. Haven't hard Hitch mention Karlsson since.

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11-21-2012, 02:37 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
That "offense man" won the Norris over his star defenseman. Haven't hard Hitch mention Karlsson since.
I haven't heard Hitch talk about anything other than 2 Tarasenko interviews since the lockout started. He's not a member of HFboards, so he's not going to bring up Karlsson every time he's interviewed. There's no reason to act like a Norris trophy has suddenly changed his opinion on anything, especially when the majority of people expected Karlsson to win it in the first place. Likewise, no matter how many times his fans mention him winning post a picture of him with the Norris, it's not going to change the minds of those who think he didn't deserve it.

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11-21-2012, 02:48 PM
  #256
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EK only plays on average about 30 mins a game he shouldn't really be all that tired and imo he should be out there for 45-50 mins per game in ALL situations

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11-21-2012, 02:53 PM
  #257
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Its really not that bad. For fans arguing that pk time is an issue, mike green would/should have won the norris if he was healthy and lead the league in defensive scoring, so yes sometimes the "offenseman" gets his due. How many teams with non defensively minded #1 dmen win the cup, thats a different questiob

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11-21-2012, 02:59 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Its really not that bad. For fans arguing that pk time is an issue, mike green would/should have won the norris if he was healthy and lead the league in defensive scoring, so yes sometimes the "offenseman" gets his due. How many teams with non defensively minded #1 dmen win the cup, thats a different questiob
Well that depends...what exactly is your definition of "non-defensively minded #1 dmen"?

I'm assuming Karlsson is just about the only player in the NHL that qualifies, right? Maybe Byfuglien too? Obviously Letang doesn't count because...well because that's why .

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11-21-2012, 03:03 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Well that depends...what exactly is your definition of "non-defensively minded #1 dmen"?

I'm assuming Karlsson is just about the only player in the NHL that qualifies, right? Maybe Byfuglien too? Obviously Letang doesn't count because...well because that's why .
I would say byfuglien is known more for being poor defensively, and letang i havent seen enough play or heard a consensus on one way or another. I would imagine since hes a penguin he probaly aint too good and gotten worse...

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11-21-2012, 03:15 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I agree that I'd give the edge to Letang defensively, but it's pretty close. Letang is much much stronger and more physical, but he also makes some really bone-headed plays (relative to Karlsson who has grown out of that substantially).
Letang's confidence has grown over the years. Likewise, he can try to do too much. I'm assuming that's what you meant when you said "bone-headed plays."

Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I would say byfuglien is known more for being poor defensively, and letang i havent seen enough play or heard a consensus on one way or another. I would imagine since hes a penguin he probaly aint too good and gotten worse...
Based on what, the Philly series?

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11-21-2012, 03:29 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
Great defense =/= going on the PK...

Everyone's favorite two-way forward (Datsyuk) has averaged a minute per game in the PK in the last two seasons; Karlsson has averaged about the same.
There are 12 forwards to choose from for PK time but only 6 maybe 7 dmen dressed for a game. It's not a valid comparison.

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11-21-2012, 03:55 PM
  #262
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Lets just enjoy these 4 young defensemen.

After all PK Subban is better than all of them

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11-21-2012, 03:57 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
Blues fans probably have the biggest hate-on for Karlsson of any fanbase on HF Boards. I wouldn't expect it. I mean, we play them once a year and nothing's ever really happened in the games. I'm guessing it's because we told them Karlsson would win the Norris, they guaranteed he wouldn't and now they're embarrassed.

Blues fans don't hate Karlsson, certainly not more than any other fan base's members that have had to listen to the incessant whining of a fringe group of outspoken Senators fans. Don't confuse contempt for ignorance with contempt for Karlsson.

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11-21-2012, 04:04 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Upgrayedd View Post
EK only plays on average about 30 mins a game he shouldn't really be all that tired and imo he should be out there for 45-50 mins per game in ALL situations
Yes
Someone understands. Tell me what NHL defenseman play 35min +/game? None. You have to choose either 30 PP/ES min or 30(PK/ES)?

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11-21-2012, 04:07 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
Blues fans don't hate Karlsson, certainly not more than any other fan base's members that have had to listen to the incessant whining of a fringe group of outspoken Senators fans. Don't confuse contempt for ignorance with contempt for Karlsson.
Rofl I'm sorry, but that irony is almost too much to handle. Wow. Senators fans are ignorant about the player they watch 82 games a year...not the fans from other teams who catch maybe 10 games tops.

Seems legit.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:08 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
Yes
Someone understands. Tell me what NHL defenseman play 35min +/game? None. You have to choose either 30 PP/ES min or 30(PK/ES)?
In what world does 25 = 30?

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11-21-2012, 04:10 PM
  #267
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If pietrangelp had his season in the east and karlsson in the west, there would be a lot more controversy...

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11-21-2012, 04:12 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
And when you are playing on par with or surpassing those superstars, what does that make you?

Look Karlsson is a fine player, but it's silly enough that a defenseman who didn't play on the PK won the Norris. Then to say that he had a Hart season to rival Pronger? Come on.
I believe he was as much important as Quick, Malkin, or Lundquist to his team. As a defenseman, he often won games by himself. That's why he was Hart worthy. Put him out and you have a weak, non-playoff team.

Playing on PK has nothing to do with defensive abilities. It's a coaching choice. If Hartsburg was still there, he would have made sure Karlsson was playing PK. But since Ottawa has no other offensive defenseman that can run offense, he is the only option.
If there was a #2, trust me, Karlsson would have played on PK last year.

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11-21-2012, 04:14 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
In what world does 25 = 30?
In your world. I only mentionned 30mins (PP/ES) or 30(PK/reducedES/ reduced PP)

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11-21-2012, 04:14 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
If pietrangelp had his season in the east and karlsson in the west, there would be a lot more controversy...
Odd since he wasn't even nominated for the Norris and Weber was. Weber plays in the West, doesn't he? I'm not very good with American geography.

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11-21-2012, 04:16 PM
  #271
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Im not talking about the norris but its entirely relevant for that too. You have to play pietrangelo a lot to realize hes not just a solid young #1 but that hes scary good. So a lot of fans miss out on that because hes in the central. And also the extra 5-10 points wouldnt hurt

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11-21-2012, 04:17 PM
  #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
In your world. I only mentionned 30mins (PP/ES) or 30(PK/reducedES/ reduced PP)
English please

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11-21-2012, 04:18 PM
  #273
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Pepsi.








No wait...






Coke.

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Old
11-21-2012, 04:20 PM
  #274
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So basically, this purpose of this thread is for people to go full-homo in their usual debate of P > EK.

Way I see it personally,

Doughty
EK
Letang/Pieterangelo.

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11-21-2012, 04:21 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Im not talking about the norris but its entirely relevant for that too. You have to play pietrangelo a lot to realize hes not just a solid young #1 but that hes scary good. So a lot of fans miss out on that because hes in the central. And also the extra 5-10 points wouldnt hurt
Actually, I've ran the numbers, and for Pietrangelo it would have been 51 points * 7% = 4 points with a corresponding increase in goals against. Good effort though.

It's not as though people don't know Pietrangelo's great - because he is - he just didn't have as good of a season as Karlsson did last year AND he is a lot more polished than Karlsson and as such has less room to improve.

It's quite interesting to me that people say Pietrangelo is more well-rounded than Karlsson (which is true) but in the same breath deny that Karlsson has more room for improvement.

To me, Karlsson is the guy who had the better year last year (and there's tons of evidence to back that up including, but not limited to, a Norris trophy) and has more room to improve. He's the easy choice.

Again, that isn't to speak ill of Pietrangelo. He's my #2 pick in this thread and is an outstanding defenseman.

He just isn't Karlsson.

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