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Rank them: Doughty, Pietrangelo, Letang, Karlsson

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Old
11-21-2012, 03:23 PM
  #276
Beville
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
Well then, Karlsson is SO GOOD, that he is the first player in the history of the game, that the coach doesn't want out there in every situation.

And how does that, or anything that you wrote make any sense. Seriously man, you are grasping at straws.
What that statement tells me then...

Is that Karlsson isn't some kind of superhero who can play 40 mins a game...

Sounds like your average Joe NHL'er to me then...

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11-21-2012, 03:26 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Beville View Post
What that statement tells me then...

Is that Karlsson isn't some kind of superhero who can play 40 mins a game...

Sounds like your average Joe NHL'er to me then...
25+2= 27. Minutes i would expect a norris finalist to have. Or any number one d man. He just wasnt trusted with pk time

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11-21-2012, 03:27 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Actually, I've ran the numbers, and for Pietrangelo it would have been 51 points * 7% = 4 points with a corresponding increase in goals against. Good effort though.

It's not as though people don't know Pietrangelo's great - because he is - he just didn't have as good of a season as Karlsson did last year AND he is a lot more polished than Karlsson and as such has less room to improve.

It's quite interesting to me that people say Pietrangelo is more well-rounded than Karlsson (which is true) but in the same breath deny that Karlsson has more room for improvement.

To me, Karlsson is the guy who had the better year last year (and there's tons of evidence to back that up including, but not limited to, a Norris trophy) and has more room to improve. He's the easy choice.

Again, that isn't to speak ill of Pietrangelo. He's my #2 pick in this thread and is an outstanding defenseman.

He just isn't Karlsson.
Its not like anyone can magically jmprove this isnt nhl 12. At some point it is a zero sum game between attention to offense and attention to defense

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11-21-2012, 03:33 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
25+2= 27. Minutes i would expect a norris finalist to have. Or any number one d man. He just wasnt trusted with pk time
This just isn't true.



http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...2/TV020937.HTM

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11-21-2012, 03:36 PM
  #280
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Was 83 seconds the longest he played shorthanded all year?

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11-21-2012, 03:42 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Dude, when you post ONE game sheet in which Sergei Gonchar gets more PK time than Karlsson to prove a point, your argument is weak. Only Matt Gilroy had less PK time in that stat sheet.

Gonchar, Kuba, Phillips, and Cowen rank ahead of him, and it's not like any of them are axing at shutting down opponents.

If anything, to just proved his point.

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11-21-2012, 03:47 PM
  #282
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If anything, to just proved his point.
He wasn't used on PK not because of trust, but because a Jack Adams nominee decided that utilizing him on more on ES would help the team win. There is no issue of trust here, Karlsson can PK as well as anyone. That particular game, he was used in a 6-4 situation to help ensure a win, it's an example.... It was the most important PK all year.

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11-21-2012, 04:00 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
25+2= 27. Minutes i would expect a norris finalist to have. Or any number one d man. He just wasnt trusted with pk time
False...Ya the Norris winner wasnt trusted to play PK hahahaha...This post has to be a candidate for worst post ever.

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11-21-2012, 04:06 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
Its not like anyone can magically jmprove this isnt nhl 12. At some point it is a zero sum game between attention to offense and attention to defense
If you're saying that it's equally difficult to improve a part of your game that is already great than it is to improve a part of your game that is decent (which is what you're saying) then I disagree with you.

Karlsson has significant room for improvement defensively (and I'll qualify this by saying he's still decent for a first pairing defenseman, but I mean hey, he didn't make the top 20 in the defensive defenseman poll and most would agree he's probably not in the top 30 either) whereas Pietrangelo really doesn't have much room for improvement anywhere in his game since he's already great at everything.

Whether Karlsson will make those improvements is up for debate and only time will tell, but he's got more room than Pietrangelo for improvement, I can't see how you'd argue otherwise.

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11-21-2012, 04:19 PM
  #285
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I've seen E.K 4 times this year in our horrible Finnish league. I have to say, that I love his vision, passing and general offensive hockey sense, but his defense has been very lackluster even here. He doesn't play PK even in the finnish league, which could explained by the fact he plays 30-33 mins a game. He plays every single PP, and mostly all of minutes in them.

I'd say after the next season is here, it'll be Pietrangelo/Doughty (can't decide on that.), E.K, Letang.

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11-21-2012, 04:26 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Karlsson has significant room for improvement defensively (and I'll qualify this by saying he's still decent for a first pairing defenseman, but I mean hey, he didn't make the top 20 in the defensive defenseman poll and most would agree he's probably not in the top 30 either) whereas Pietrangelo really doesn't have much room for improvement anywhere in his game since he's already great at everything.
So Pie will always be worse than Karlsson due to what is current and future?

As for the PK/ES/PP thing with Karlsson, with the PP being ~top 10 or so and the PK being bottom 10 or so(team), would having him split a bit of his PP time on the PK have been that detrimental to his usage in a game or would it have helped out in special teams?

I'm not sure of how the Rangers series played out, but they made it into the playoffs so what they did in the regular season worked, but how did his time in the series work out, and would splitting pp/pk time have made any serious impact in the series?

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11-21-2012, 04:55 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by ManyIdeas View Post
So Pie will always be worse than Karlsson due to what is current and future?

As for the PK/ES/PP thing with Karlsson, with the PP being ~top 10 or so and the PK being bottom 10 or so(team), would having him split a bit of his PP time on the PK have been that detrimental to his usage in a game or would it have helped out in special teams?

I'm not sure of how the Rangers series played out, but they made it into the playoffs so what they did in the regular season worked, but how did his time in the series work out, and would splitting pp/pk time have made any serious impact in the series?
Well Karlsson got a point on 57% of our PP goals so I'd imagine the hurt would be pretty bad if we moved him. I also imagine PM knows what he's doing, Jack Adams nomination and all.

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Old
11-21-2012, 05:01 PM
  #288
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Letang is the worst defensemen in the NHL. Basically a terrible forward with a bad head on his shoulders that can't give or take a hit.

There are lots of comparisons with him and Green but Green is better offensively and defensibly. He also has good positioning, and a good head for hockey. Makes decent plays and did I mention he is good offensively?

Letang does not belong in this discussion, I would never want him on my team. Green is better than all the defensemen mention in the thread. The other players play on stacked defensive teams to boost their defense numbers. Green plays on the all out offense Capitals and still puts up decent defense numbers and amazing goals.

If Green played on a defensive team, he would be number one in the last few decades imo. Can't name a defenemen who can defend like him and score better and just about any goal scorer in the NHL. What a talent. Letang is garbage.

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11-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
If you're saying that it's equally difficult to improve a part of your game that is already great than it is to improve a part of your game that is decent (which is what you're saying) then I disagree with you.

Karlsson has significant room for improvement defensively (and I'll qualify this by saying he's still decent for a first pairing defenseman, but I mean hey, he didn't make the top 20 in the defensive defenseman poll and most would agree he's probably not in the top 30 either) whereas Pietrangelo really doesn't have much room for improvement anywhere in his game since he's already great at everything.

Whether Karlsson will make those improvements is up for debate and only time will tell, but he's got more room than Pietrangelo for improvement, I can't see how you'd argue otherwise.
I always thought "room for improvement" was a euphemism for a player being bad in a certain area. So yeah I agree, Karlsson has a lot of "room for improvement" when you compare to Pietrangelo

And I'm talking about in real life game situations. A player can only spend so much time playing offensively, so much time playing defensively, and if you increase your attention in one area (defense) it will come at the sacrifice of offense.

Another point I think rarely gets brought up, St Louis had a pretty mediocre offensive cast and Pietrangelo ends up 3 points out of first place with 51 points. Karlsson was 2nd on his team true, but you have to wonder if the Blues had even one player as offensively talented as Michalek or Spezza, let alone 2. Notwithstanding the fact that the Blues are a Hitchcock team.

My point is Pietrangelo put up 51 points on an offensively conservative team with a mediocre group of forwards.

And note that he was not only second on the Blues but he was top-20 in the NHL for shorthanded time


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Old
11-21-2012, 06:01 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
My point is Pietrangelo put up 51 points on an offensively conservative team with a mediocre group of forwards.
It's true Pietrangelo put up a 50 points, and on a offensive team he might have approached 60 points (and considering he plays in the West), the offensive power of the Sens is overestimated. It is the Spezza/Karlsson show. Not to take anything away from Michalek and aging Alfie, our offense is top heavy and lacks the offensive balance of St. Louis. Neither team is offensively gifted. If you never played a game in the NHL, we had a spot open for you on the 1st line in the playoffs (Silf/Stone).

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11-21-2012, 06:11 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I always thought "room for improvement" was a euphemism for a player being bad in a certain area. So yeah I agree, Karlsson has a lot of "room for improvement" when you compare to Pietrangelo
Your interpretation is wrong. Karlsson has more room for improvement because he isn't "great" at everything yet. He's generationally talented offensively and decent defensively. Therefore he has room for improvement defensively.

Pietrangelo is great offensively and great defensively: he has less room for improvement.

Quote:
And I'm talking about in real life game situations. A player can only spend so much time playing offensively, so much time playing defensively, and if you increase your attention in one area (defense) it will come at the sacrifice of offense.
That's not true. Karlsson is in the defensive end X amount of the time. If he plays better defensively while in the defensive zone for those X minutes better than he did this year, he's improving defensively without sacrificing offense.

Quote:
Another point I think rarely gets brought up, St Louis had a pretty mediocre offensive cast and Pietrangelo ends up 3 points out of first place with 51 points. Karlsson was 2nd on his team true, but you have to wonder if the Blues had even one player as offensively talented as Michalek or Spezza, let alone 2. Notwithstanding the fact that the Blues are a Hitchcock team.

My point is Pietrangelo put up 51 points on an offensively conservative team with a mediocre group of forwards.

And note that he was not only second on the Blues but he was top-20 in the NHL for shorthanded time
It's true that St. Louis had a team that is less offensively talented than Ottawa (in consideration of everything: players, system, coaching, etc) and you're right that it doesn't get brought up often.

What gets brought up even LESS often is that advantage that Pietrangelo benefits from from playing on such an outstanding defending team. Throw Karlsson on that team and he'd shine defensively.

The Blues allowed 1.65 GA per 60 minutes without Pietrangelo on the ice. That's insane.

The Sens on the other hand allowed a whopping 2.47 goals against per 60 minutes without Karlsson: 50% more goals against than St. Louis!

Oh and their goals for that you were talking about? St. Louis GF per 60 was 2.11 without Pietrangelo, and Ottawa's was 2.22 without Karlsson or in other words 5% higher.

So you tell me, who really benefited from the supporting cast they had? Karlsson had a 5% advantage offensively, Pietrangelo a 50% advantage defensively in terms of goals scored.


Last edited by Sureves: 11-21-2012 at 06:17 PM.
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Old
11-21-2012, 07:35 PM
  #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
Your interpretation is wrong. Karlsson has more room for improvement because he isn't "great" at everything yet. He's generationally talented offensively and decent defensively. Therefore he has room for improvement defensively.

Pietrangelo is great offensively and great defensively: he has less room for improvement.



That's not true. Karlsson is in the defensive end X amount of the time. If he plays better defensively while in the defensive zone for those X minutes better than he did this year, he's improving defensively without sacrificing offense.



It's true that St. Louis had a team that is less offensively talented than Ottawa (in consideration of everything: players, system, coaching, etc) and you're right that it doesn't get brought up often.

What gets brought up even LESS often is that advantage that Pietrangelo benefits from from playing on such an outstanding defending team. Throw Karlsson on that team and he'd shine defensively.

The Blues allowed 1.65 GA per 60 minutes without Pietrangelo on the ice. That's insane.

The Sens on the other hand allowed a whopping 2.47 goals against per 60 minutes without Karlsson: 50% more goals against than St. Louis!

Oh and their goals for that you were talking about? St. Louis GF per 60 was 2.11 without Pietrangelo, and Ottawa's was 2.22 without Karlsson or in other words 5% higher.

So you tell me, who really benefited from the supporting cast they had? Karlsson had a 5% advantage offensively, Pietrangelo a 50% advantage defensively in terms of goals scored.
I think for both teams those numbers are so skewed because you are talking about cutting about half the game from the statistics. I also think another way to look at it is that Ottawa is a very top heavy team that won despite bad depth, whereas the Blues as a whole probably excelled specifically because of it. While that makes Karlsson's job defensively somewhat easier, I don't want to comment on something I don't have statistics to back me up on, but quality of competition is a factor to consider here. And we were just talking about how Pietrangelo is spending basically 3 minutes a night on the penalty kill.

And if you want to complicate it further, you have Doughty, who probably was at a midway point in terms of his role on the team between Karlsson and Pietrangelo

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11-21-2012, 08:00 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I think for both teams those numbers are so skewed because you are talking about cutting about half the game from the statistics. I also think another way to look at it is that Ottawa is a very top heavy team that won despite bad depth, whereas the Blues as a whole probably excelled specifically because of it. While that makes Karlsson's job defensively somewhat easier, I don't want to comment on something I don't have statistics to back me up on, but quality of competition is a factor to consider here. And we were just talking about how Pietrangelo is spending basically 3 minutes a night on the penalty kill.

And if you want to complicate it further, you have Doughty, who probably was at a midway point in terms of his role on the team between Karlsson and Pietrangelo
Actually Karlsson faced tougher competition than Pietrangelo if we look at the Top 60 point getting forward in the NHL: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1285039

I'm only talking about ES.

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Old
11-22-2012, 11:22 AM
  #294
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What if Letang leads all defencemen in scoring when hockey is back in North America? -LETS GO PENS!!!

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11-22-2012, 11:44 AM
  #295
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Letang is the worst defensemen in the NHL. Basically a terrible forward with a bad head on his shoulders that can't give or take a hit.

There are lots of comparisons with him and Green but Green is better offensively and defensibly. He also has good positioning, and a good head for hockey. Makes decent plays and did I mention he is good offensively?

Letang does not belong in this discussion, I would never want him on my team. Green is better than all the defensemen mention in the thread. The other players play on stacked defensive teams to boost their defense numbers. Green plays on the all out offense Capitals and still puts up decent defense numbers and amazing goals.

If Green played on a defensive team, he would be number one in the last few decades imo. Can't name a defenemen who can defend like him and score better and just about any goal scorer in the NHL. What a talent. Letang is garbage.
Tip of the week: If you're going to troll, disguise it with at least one valid argument. That might actually make other posters think that you were serious.

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11-22-2012, 11:52 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
What if Letang leads all defencemen in scoring when hockey is back in North America? -LETS GO PENS!!!
I actually expect that Letang will if Crosby and Malkin are healthy all year and Neal keeps up the pace.

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11-22-2012, 02:30 PM
  #297
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False...Ya the Norris winner wasnt trusted to play PK hahahaha...This post has to be a candidate for worst post ever.
True, it's not that Paul Maclean didnt trust Karlsson on PK. Its more that the coach didnt trust any other defenseman to generate offense at Even Strenght.

If there was another PMD (which whould have been Gonchar), Karlsson would have played PK.

Or if the system was extra defensive, he would have played PK.

You know what, it's all Paul Maclean's fault. Clouston made him start play PK around January 2011 and from that point to the end of the season, he played 110 mins.

Everyone, check this:
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/ES021113.HTM (THAT'S 4:11 of PK time against one of the most skilled team in the league)
or
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/ES021073.HTM
(Shutdown a pretty strong TB team with 40+ scorer Stamkos, Lecavalier)
or
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/ES020801.HTM (When he played 3:31 of PK time vs Vancouver and the PK finished a perfect 5-5)


Last edited by simplefan: 11-22-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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11-22-2012, 03:41 PM
  #298
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True, it's not that Paul Maclean didnt trust Karlsson on PK. Its more that the coach didnt trust any other defenseman to generate offense at Even Strenght.

If there was another PMD (which whould have been Gonchar), Karlsson would have played PK.

Or if the system was extra defensive, he would have played PK.

You know what, it's all Paul Maclean's fault. Clouston made him start play PK around January 2011 and from that point to the end of the season, he played 110 mins.

Everyone, check this:
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/ES021113.HTM (THAT'S 4:11 of PK time against one of the most skilled team in the league)
or
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/ES021073.HTM
(Shutdown a pretty strong TB team with 40+ scorer Stamkos, Lecavalier)
or
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...1/ES020801.HTM (When he played 3:31 of PK time vs Vancouver and the PK finished a perfect 5-5)
It's true he's a fantastic penalty killer which is why it's amazing that we even have this discussion.

Once Clouston put him in, he only allowed 3 goals against in 110:06 minutes. Granted our PK as a whole was very good, but Karlsson played a big role in the those results.

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11-22-2012, 03:50 PM
  #299
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IMO Karlsson, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Letang (toss up between Pietrangelo and Letang IMO).

Can't really argue with any of them though, if I had any one of these 4 guys on my top pairing I'd want to get them locked up long term. I have to say though, this hate on Karlsson is getting old. He's not "weak defensively", he's not "soft", he's a top pairing defenseman who put up 79 points last year. 79.

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11-22-2012, 04:03 PM
  #300
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Doughty
Letang
Karlsson
Pietrangelo

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