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Rank them: Doughty, Pietrangelo, Letang, Karlsson

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Old
11-22-2012, 04:15 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
It's true he's a fantastic penalty killer which is why it's amazing that we even have this discussion.

Once Clouston put him in, he only allowed 3 goals against in 110:06 minutes. Granted our PK as a whole was very good, but Karlsson played a big role in the those results.
Well said! Maybe in the years coming, with Ceci, we might see Karlsson as a regular on PK

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11-22-2012, 04:24 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
IMO Karlsson, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Letang (toss up between Pietrangelo and Letang IMO).

Can't really argue with any of them though, if I had any one of these 4 guys on my top pairing I'd want to get them locked up long term. I have to say though, this hate on Karlsson is getting old. He's not "weak defensively", he's not "soft", he's a top pairing defenseman who put up 79 points last year. 79.
Karlsson truly hold his own against bigger players(i.e Byfuglien), or fast forwards. Many times, we say him shut down Ovechkin on fire, Stamkos.

If Karlsson is not the best defensively, he is truly one of the best at defending a one on one. Hes so fast, so skilled, so smart.

The only playet who i deem better is pietrangelo. Doughty, letang are basically the same players.

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11-22-2012, 06:00 PM
  #303
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I wonder how many people ranking Doughty in the bottom half of their personal rankings are familiar at all that he can hit like this?



































Anyway, I think I've made my point with all of the clips posted above. I'm willing to bet more than half of the posters in here are probably unaware of Doughty's physical game and wouldn't be unless they watch him on a nightly basis. He's like a modern day Rob Blake, but considerably more talented at both and agile at both sides of the puck.


Last edited by Ziggy Stardust: 11-22-2012 at 07:28 PM.
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11-22-2012, 07:25 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I wonder how many people ranking Doughty in the bottom half of their personal rankings are familiar at all that he can hit like this?

Anyway, I think I've made my point with all of the clips posted above. I'm willing to bet more than half of the posters in here are probably unaware of Doughty's physical game and wouldn't be unless they want him on a nightly basis. He's like a modern day Rob Blake, but considerably more talented at both and agile at both sides of the puck.
I did know that actually but good thinking posting it since I suspect most people aren't aware of that.

To me, hitting isn't really that important for a defenseman. Not many of these guys were known as big hitters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_N...emorial_Trophy

Please don't confuse this as me saying hitting is a bad thing - it's certainly a positive for any defenseman to have - but I don't think it's worth that much personally.

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11-22-2012, 09:13 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I wonder how many people ranking Doughty in the bottom half of their personal rankings are familiar at all that he can hit like this?

Anyway, I think I've made my point with all of the clips posted above. I'm willing to bet more than half of the posters in here are probably unaware of Doughty's physical game and wouldn't be unless they watch him on a nightly basis. He's like a modern day Rob Blake, but considerably more talented at both and agile at both sides of the puck.
Since when Lidstrom, Niedermayer are physical? But they were Norris worthy. Being a big hitter has nothing to do with it.

Do you guys know Andy Sutton? He's so bad. He's such a pylon but he's a pretty big hitter. Will I trust him in the defensive zone? No, because he gets out of position often.

Bottomline, Doughty is amazing, Letang is amazing. However, Karlsson and Pietrangelo are as much amazing as the other despite playing less a physical game and a more cerebral one.

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11-22-2012, 09:33 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
Since when Lidstrom, Niedermayer are physical? But they were Norris worthy. Being a big hitter has nothing to do with it.

Do you guys know Andy Sutton? He's so bad. He's such a pylon but he's a pretty big hitter. Will I trust him in the defensive zone? No, because he gets out of position often.

Bottomline, Doughty is amazing, Letang is amazing. However, Karlsson and Pietrangelo are as much amazing as the other despite playing less a physical game and a more cerebral one.
I'm sorry but I can't take anyone seriously when they make such outlandish remarks. I guess it is easy to ignore the likes of Larry Robinson, Chris Pronger, Chris Chelios, Scott Stevens, Rob Blake, Ray Bourque, y'know, defensemen who were pretty intimidating to play against due to their play with and without the puck. Oh yeah, they also have some Stanley Cups in their collection as well. Doughty has that. And Karlsson is no Lidstrom, or Niedermayer for that matter.

And what the **** does Andy Sutton have to do with this conversation? Are you insinuating that Doughty is Andy Sutton with offensive skills?

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11-22-2012, 10:21 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
Karlsson truly hold his own against bigger players(i.e Byfuglien), or fast forwards. Many times, we say him shut down Ovechkin on fire, Stamkos.

If Karlsson is not the best defensively, he is truly one of the best at defending a one on one. Hes so fast, so skilled, so smart.

The only playet who i deem better is pietrangelo. Doughty, letang are basically the same players.
You live up to your moniker

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11-22-2012, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sureves View Post
I did know that actually but good thinking posting it since I suspect most people aren't aware of that.

To me, hitting isn't really that important for a defenseman. Not many of these guys were known as big hitters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_N...emorial_Trophy

Please don't confuse this as me saying hitting is a bad thing - it's certainly a positive for any defenseman to have - but I don't think it's worth that much personally.
Theres this thing in hockey called momentum you may not have heard of. In sports often you see players change te course of a game with plays that are not directly relevant to the scoreboar.


Last edited by The Head Crusher: 11-22-2012 at 11:17 PM.
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11-22-2012, 10:39 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I'm sorry but I can't take anyone seriously when they make such outlandish remarks. I guess it is easy to ignore the likes of Larry Robinson, Chris Pronger, Chris Chelios, Scott Stevens, Rob Blake, Ray Bourque, y'know, defensemen who were pretty intimidating to play against due to their play with and without the puck. Oh yeah, they also have some Stanley Cups in their collection as well. Doughty has that. And Karlsson is no Lidstrom, or Niedermayer for that matter.

And what the **** does Andy Sutton have to do with this conversation? Are you insinuating that Doughty is Andy Sutton with offensive skills?
Yes I am dumb but I'm pretty open-minded.

What about Pietrangelo who I rank higher than Karlsson? He's not a physical player like the ones you mentionned above.

Being a physical defenseman with skill does not assure you a Norris. Yes, Andy Sutton has nothing to do with the convo but my point was being a big hitter does not equal into being great defensively.

Let I assure you that Doughty is an amazing defenseman. He's really skilled defenseman. He's a big hitter and he's great defensively.

Like an intelligent poster said above, being a big hitter is a plus for a Norris defenseman.

All I think is if a defenseman can effectively contain a player, play his position, steal pucks and contribute in a significant way offensively, he's worthy of a Norris.


Last edited by simplefan: 11-22-2012 at 10:48 PM.
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11-22-2012, 10:54 PM
  #310
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Theres this thing in hockey called momentum you may not have heard of. In sports often you see players change te course of a game with plays that are not directly relevant to the scoreboar.
Matt Carkner, Andy Sutton can change the course of a game. But, in no way they have Norris influence. Changing the course of a game has nothing to do with winning a Norris.

It's rather controlling a game which is more required (defensively and offensively).


Last edited by The Head Crusher: 11-22-2012 at 11:18 PM.
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11-22-2012, 10:54 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
What about Pietrangelo who I
I think Pietrangelo has greater potential to turn out like Scott Niedermayer, but I don't see anyone being as dominant from the blueline as Lidstrom was. I figure that the Norris Trophy will bounce around in the next few years between the likes of Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Weber and Keith.

There are also other dmen may (or may not) move up to that level. I think Seabrook and Suter are close to being Norris contenders, and there are others like Myers, Enstrom, Subban, who could get to that level in the future, but that isn't guaranteed.

Just look at Mike Green and the numbers he put up in 2009 and 2010, they're comparable to Karlsson's numbers this past season, and he hasn't been the same player since then and has had issues with injuries and consistency. There have been many offensive defensemen who fizzled out after a couple of very productive seasons, it happened to Sandis Ozolinsh, it happened to Oleg Tverdovsky, Phil Housley, Kevin Hatcher, etc. They were one trick ponies who didn't adapt well when they weren't contributing on the score sheet.

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11-22-2012, 11:11 PM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I think Pietrangelo has greater potential to turn out like Scott Niedermayer, but I don't see anyone being as dominant from the blueline as Lidstrom was. I figure that the Norris Trophy will bounce around in the next few years between the likes of Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Weber and Keith.

There are also other dmen may (or may not) move up to that level. I think Seabrook and Suter are close to being Norris contenders, and there are others like Myers, Enstrom, Subban, who could get to that level in the future, but that isn't guaranteed.

Just look at Mike Green and the numbers he put up in 2009 and 2010, they're comparable to Karlsson's numbers this past season, and he hasn't been the same player since then and has had issues with injuries and consistency. There have been many offensive defensemen who fizzled out after a couple of very productive seasons, it happened to Sandis Ozolinsh, it happened to Oleg Tverdovsky, Phil Housley, Kevin Hatcher, etc. They were one trick ponies who didn't adapt well when they weren't contributing on the score sheet.
you should look at his stat sheet.

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11-22-2012, 11:19 PM
  #313
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you should look at his stat sheet.
He had a steep drop off in his numbers when he reached his 30s. He was still putting up points but nowhere near the numbers he was putting up in his 20s. And Housley never won anything, despite being a very successful offensive defenseman.

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11-22-2012, 11:36 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
I think Pietrangelo has greater potential to turn out like Scott Niedermayer, but I don't see anyone being as dominant from the blueline as Lidstrom was. I figure that the Norris Trophy will bounce around in the next few years between the likes of Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Weber and Keith.

There are also other dmen may (or may not) move up to that level. I think Seabrook and Suter are close to being Norris contenders, and there are others like Myers, Enstrom, Subban, who could get to that level in the future, but that isn't guaranteed.

Just look at Mike Green and the numbers he put up in 2009 and 2010, they're comparable to Karlsson's numbers this past season, and he hasn't been the same player since then and has had issues with injuries and consistency. There have been many offensive defensemen who fizzled out after a couple of very productive seasons, it happened to Sandis Ozolinsh, it happened to Oleg Tverdovsky, Phil Housley, Kevin Hatcher, etc. They were one trick ponies who didn't adapt well when they weren't contributing on the score sheet.
Injuries are a huge part of Green's decline. Karlsson's hockey IQ is far and above that of Greens. If Karlsson can garner 79 pts playing with the Sens roster imagine how many points he would of gotten playing with the likes of Ovie, Semin, Backstrom etc.

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11-22-2012, 11:51 PM
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Injuries are a huge part of Green's decline. Karlsson's hockey IQ is far and above that of Greens. If Karlsson can garner 79 pts playing with the Sens roster imagine how many points he would of gotten playing with the likes of Ovie, Semin, Backstrom etc.
That's a big assumption that fans mistakenly believe would result in more points. If Karlsson is on a team with those players, how often is he going to have the puck on his stick? He may not be able to do the things the Sens have enabled him to do.

Let's use Sergei Zubov as an example as he was a high scoring defenseman with the Rangers, scoring 89 points as a 23 year old sophomore in 78 games. He scored 36 points in 38 games in his third season (which was the shortened 48-game lockout season).

He gets traded to Pittsburgh in his fourth season and gets to play with Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, all of whom scored 100+ points. They also had Nedved who scored 99 points that season. Yet somehow, Zubov was only able to register 66 points that season in 64 games and was traded in the off season. His PPG took a dip even when he joined a far more talented Penguins squad.

The reason for that was because he wasn't relied upon as much to put up points. Which is why it is misleading and a big leap to assume that Player X would put up significantly more points if he joined Team Y.

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11-23-2012, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by simplefan View Post
Matt Carkner, Andy Sutton can change the course of a game. But, in no way they have Norris influence. Changing the course of a game has nothing to do with winning a Norris.

It's rather controlling a game which is more required (defensively and offensively).
This is the worst strawman ever

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11-23-2012, 12:40 AM
  #317
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I figure that the Norris Trophy will bounce around in the next few years between the likes of Doughty, Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Weber and Keith.
I don't see Keith winning it again. I'm not saying he's bad, but it will take a down year from the other 4.

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11-23-2012, 01:45 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
He had a steep drop off in his numbers when he reached his 30s. He was still putting up points but nowhere near the numbers he was putting up in his 20s. And Housley never won anything, despite being a very successful offensive defenseman.

you said a couple seasons. He had over 60 points for a decade.

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11-23-2012, 07:29 AM
  #319
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Theres this thing in hockey called momentum you may not have heard of. In sports often you see players change te course of a game with plays that are not directly relevant to the scoreboar.
You know what changes momentum in a hockey game more than hits? Goals. Karlsson directly contributed on 78 of them.

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11-23-2012, 08:25 AM
  #320
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This is the worst strawman ever
Why do you have a more intelligent comment to make ??

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11-23-2012, 08:28 AM
  #321
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I wonder how many people ranking Doughty in the bottom half of their personal rankings are familiar at all that he can hit like this?



































Anyway, I think I've made my point with all of the clips posted above. I'm willing to bet more than half of the posters in here are probably unaware of Doughty's physical game and wouldn't be unless they watch him on a nightly basis. He's like a modern day Rob Blake, but considerably more talented at both and agile at both sides of the puck.
Good for him ,doesnt make him the best.Hits are not the only thing that matters

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11-23-2012, 08:36 AM
  #322
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1) Doughty ( Best all-around Defenseman here, honestly theres not a close second on this list)
2) Karlsson (Best Offensive Defensman in the league IMO)
3) Petriangelo (Top 5 Offensive Dman in the NHL)
4) Letang ( Very solid in all aspects of the gamE)

IN THE FUTURE:

Doughty/Petriangelo(There both going to be the best all around dman in the game)
Karlsson( The Best Offensive Defensman in the game)
Letang (again you know what your going to get hes very solid all around)

All in all all these guys are elite, who cares where you rank them.


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11-23-2012, 08:45 AM
  #323
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That's a big assumption that fans mistakenly believe would result in more points. If Karlsson is on a team with those players, how often is he going to have the puck on his stick? He may not be able to do the things the Sens have enabled him to do.

Let's use Sergei Zubov as an example as he was a high scoring defenseman with the Rangers, scoring 89 points as a 23 year old sophomore in 78 games. He scored 36 points in 38 games in his third season (which was the shortened 48-game lockout season).

He gets traded to Pittsburgh in his fourth season and gets to play with Lemieux, Jagr, Francis, all of whom scored 100+ points. They also had Nedved who scored 99 points that season. Yet somehow, Zubov was only able to register 66 points that season in 64 games and was traded in the off season. His PPG took a dip even when he joined a far more talented Penguins squad.

The reason for that was because he wasn't relied upon as much to put up points. Which is why it is misleading and a big leap to assume that Player X would put up significantly more points if he joined Team Y.
Very skewed analysis, IMO.

Zubov put up a 78 point pace on a great team 1995 (Messier, Leetch, Graves, Larmer, Kovalev, Nedved, Verbeek) and was traded to a better team in 1996 and his point totals DID go up by 7 points over an 82 game season...

Then when he left that powerhouse team, the next year he scored at a 45 point pace with the Stars and averaged a 52 point pace over the next 5 years (excluding the 45 point year).

Clearly 1994 was Zubov's best (offensive) year as a player and it's clear he wasn't as good in every year afterwards. He still did FAR better with superstars than he did without them.

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11-23-2012, 01:00 PM
  #324
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Why do you have a more intelligent comment to make ??
Im just saying that comparing anyone in this thread to andy sutton is pretty pointless

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11-23-2012, 03:28 PM
  #325
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I know I responded earlier but are fans still trying to say Karlsson is bad defensively?

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