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Everybody's talking at me; I don't hear a word they're saying (CBA/Lockout XXIX)

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11-16-2012, 10:19 AM
  #226
LadyStanley
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http://www.csnne.com/hockey-boston-b...3&feedID=10944

Haggerty: NHL needs to stop embarrassment and get deal done

Quote:
Interesting the NHL wants to put a stop to talks they're accusing others of "having no genuine interest in reaching an agreement", and they're doing it while refusing to go the route of a federal mediator that's willing to provide his services for free. As in "interesting" is code for "makes no freakin' sense."

Actually, Mr. Daly, NHL fans don’t want to hear the league’s leadership throwing their hands up in the air and waving ‘em like they just don’t care. That’s about the last thing loyal, hardcore hockey fans want to hear after 61 days of a lockout has already steamrolled over a quarter of the regular season along with the Winter Classic.

Furthermore there isn’t a single gain, win or victory that the NHLPA can hang their hat on in any of the offers made by the league: they’ll be drawing money from a much smaller piece of the revenue pie, enjoying fewer rights as players and losing salary from a locked out season that they’ll never again earn back in their short careers.

It seems the players are prepared to lose the fight, but they’re just not going to let the NHL give them a trademarked Arron Asham “nighty night” wave on their way to the penalty box.

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11-16-2012, 10:20 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
This morning on Team 1200 , Pierre McGuire said that he believed that if Paul Kelly still headed the PA there would not have been a single game lost this year and that the players rights would have been well protected.
Well he can't say that with certainty and while I don't know whether it was truly personal or professional factors that drove Kelly out, I do know that the approach he was trying to take is one I would like to see attempted between all employers and unions. Instead of playing chicken, I think that cycle needs to be broken where an us vs them mentality has a stranglehold on both sides. I think spending just as much time (if not more) building bridges with communication and open dialogue with the other party are just as important as the issues you sit and negotiate about.

Striking those kind of relationships may not be easy but I don't think it's impossible. A truly masterful negotiator should be someone who can serve his/her constituents without causing them incredible loss. I don't think such a negotiator exists in pro sports and they certainly don't exist within the NHL and NLHPA.

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11-16-2012, 10:21 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Ilrider View Post
A moratorium requested by the NHL is a way to get the season restarted? That defies logic, even with your point about making it scare the players into action. Sounds more like Bettman wants to ensure half of December is cancelled to me.
The more paychecks the players miss, the more pressure they'll put on their leadership to deal.

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11-16-2012, 10:22 AM
  #229
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Originally Posted by mikeda1940 View Post
I've conceeded several times already that, as with all unions, their leverage is in their ability to stay together. They failed in 2004 and the 2012 discussion is the result. If they held together in 2004, there would be no cap or linkage to discuss. We can dispute whether the league as a whole would be better off. Perhaps without a cap in 2004, the owners would have ramped up a more feasible revenue sharing system (where I believe most all the solutions truly lie).

Whether this all actually happens or not, I set up this supposed fantasy to isolate the question of who needs who more. The owners need the players to break ranks to come back to status. The players can form/join a new league and likely eventually reach the same status barring any line crossing. If they want it, it is the players who control the "destiny" of leverage, not the owners. That was my point.
I'm not sure unity on behalf of the union would have caused the owners to eventually cave back in 2004, it seems as if the owners are in it for the long haul. Now again in 2012, I get the same feeling to some degree (at least on the HRR split and revenues). If they owner's were turning a great profit, the players would have far more leverage when a lock out is threatened. Since the league isn't overly healthy and many owners are losing money anyways, the owners have all of the leverage. Hence, they can afford to be in this for the long haul. Revenues will certainly drop in non-hockey markets after this lockout, many owners are probably expecting an increased HRR share along with revenue sharing to pad that in such a way that it is not much worse than before. And in a couple of years, it will hopefully be far better.

Anyways, not to get off topic, but I don't feel as if the owners will lock the players out in the next CBA negotiations if the league is universally healthy. Therefore, if this current deal works as well as the owners expect it to and they are all profitable, the next CBA discussions should be easier. I think we all knew that a 57% HRR split to the players wasn't sustainable, and I think we all knew back in 2004 that the owners would be looking at reducing that. But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.. Unfortunately right now it's very "broke".

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11-16-2012, 10:23 AM
  #230
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Has anyone said it lately? This league is a joke.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:24 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Richie10 View Post
Has anyone said it lately? This league is a joke.
The league demands are on par with what the NFL and NBA asked for. The NHLPA is more of a joke IMO.

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11-16-2012, 10:26 AM
  #232
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for me this is the count down to the cancellation of the season
not to sound all chicken little "the sky is falling" on here, but this is the countdown to the end of the NHL as we know it. The league will not ever recover fully from a 2nd lost season in 8 short years. How both sides refuse to see this is beyond me.

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11-16-2012, 10:27 AM
  #233
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SunGarrioch 8:07am via Web My belief is the two week break won't result in a two week break from talks. #NHL #NHLPA

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11-16-2012, 10:28 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.csnne.com/hockey-boston-b...3&feedID=10944

Haggerty: NHL needs to stop embarrassment and get deal done
No once does he state where this suggestion was in response to Fehr stating he didn't know how to proceed.

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11-16-2012, 10:31 AM
  #235
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Whatever happened to the idea of an arbitrator or mediator? Seems like both the NHL and NHLPA were examining the idea although I think I recall Bettman saying it was not urgent enough yet (several weeks ago). Seems pretty urgent to me. But there lies the rub. I am just a fan and want hockey back. These clowns (on both sides)don't seem to share my sense of urgency.

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11-16-2012, 10:31 AM
  #236
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Love it... NHLPA doesn't know what to do...

Bettman gets the blame. That guy sure takes a beating for no reason.

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11-16-2012, 10:32 AM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilrider View Post
A moratorium requested by the NHL is a way to get the season restarted? That defies logic, even with your point about making it scare the players into action. Sounds more like Bettman wants to ensure half of December is cancelled to me.
It wasn't requested, it was suggested. There's a difference even if the strategy remains the same. Fehr continuously says 'I don't know how we'll proceed'. He says this in his pressers, he supposedly said this to Bettman yesterday. Well the league has said that they're not going to make any more proposals in the near future so the PA can come to them with one. With Fehr telling Bettman he doesn't know how the two sides can proceed, Bettman is saying 'well we can take a 2 week break and you can figure it out if you'd like'. Bettman has put the ball in the PA's court and he's telling them that it's their move.

It certainly sounds bad, especially when people replace words with 'suggest' to 'request' and 'want' and 'demand', but the fact remains, both men are allowed to use strategy and both of them are. Bettman's comments are just another one to add to the list of tactics being used by both sides. I don't think Bettman particularly cares though. I'm sure he sleeps well at night knowing that he's nicely compensated for being a punching bag. Same with Fehr - his role makes him quite the punching bag as well. They know what their roles are and they have their own way of trying to get what they want.

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11-16-2012, 10:34 AM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceblue View Post
Whatever happened to the idea of an arbitrator or mediator? Seems like both the NHL and NHLPA were examining the idea although I think I recall Bettman saying it was not urgent enough yet (several weeks ago). Seems pretty urgent to me. But there lies the rub. I am just a fan and want hockey back. These clowns (on both sides)don't seem to share my sense of urgency.
I think the NHL is worried about the information that would come out if they went to arbitraiton.

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11-16-2012, 10:39 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I think the NHL is worried about the information that would come out if they went to arbitraiton.
What information would that be? And why would anything in mediation be made public?

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11-16-2012, 10:40 AM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceblue View Post
Whatever happened to the idea of an arbitrator or mediator? Seems like both the NHL and NHLPA were examining the idea although I think I recall Bettman saying it was not urgent enough yet (several weeks ago). Seems pretty urgent to me. But there lies the rub. I am just a fan and want hockey back. These clowns (on both sides)don't seem to share my sense of urgency.
I seriously doubt that the NHL and the NHLPA will ever reach to a mediator. I don't think they'd be able to agree on a mediator since both sides don't trust one another.

That's a key word; trust. That's a huge reason why there's no hockey.

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11-16-2012, 10:41 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
I think the NHL is worried about the information that would come out if they went to arbitraiton.
Yeah okay

PA haven't suggested an arbitrator. NEITHER side will agree to arbitration because the conclusion made in an arbitration process is binding. Neither side will want to give up their bargaining power to someone else to literally make the decision for them.

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11-16-2012, 10:46 AM
  #242
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Really crafty move and negotiation tactic by Bettman to put the ball in the PA's hands to reignite talks. Fehr's refusal of a moratorium should engage more discussions on part of the PA on how to approach talks differently.

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11-16-2012, 10:53 AM
  #243
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In all honesty--I don't see why the NHL doesn't use an arbitrator for the case. I actually see that as a losing proposition for the NHLPA. What will the arbitrator use as comparable situations--the NBA, MLB and NFL. All of those leagues give players a much smaller piece of the pie when it comes to revenue percentages, so there really isn't much footing for the NHLPA to claim 57% or more. Even assuming the NHL is losing as much money as they say, expenses (like fuel, housing, rent, energy, healthcare, etc...) are all going up faster than revenue. And much of the revenue gains are related to the rise of the Canadian dollar vs. the American dollar over the term of the last CBA. Now that the dollars are at par, there is no reason to think that the loonie will gain another 20% value over the next term of the CBA.

I'd tell the NHL to let the arbitrator come in--maybe the NHLPA would actually be reasonable.

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11-16-2012, 10:54 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Really crafty move and negotiation tactic by Bettman to put the ball in the PA's hands to reignite talks. Fehr's refusal of a moratorium should engage more discussions on part of the PA on how to approach talks differently.
Not really. Fehr's play is to just ignore it.

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11-16-2012, 10:54 AM
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iceblue View Post
Whatever happened to the idea of an arbitrator or mediator? Seems like both the NHL and NHLPA were examining the idea although I think I recall Bettman saying it was not urgent enough yet (several weeks ago). Seems pretty urgent to me. But there lies the rub. I am just a fan and want hockey back. These clowns (on both sides)don't seem to share my sense of urgency.
I don't think the PA ever indicated they would like to bring in a third party mediator.

Either way, the NHL would spend the mediation process pointing at how well things work in the NBA / NFL with their 50/50 splits (thereabouts) while the PA would be extolling the benefits of the MLB system. I think a mediator would wind up setting things back, not moving them forward.

I doubt either side agrees to binding arbitration.

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11-16-2012, 11:03 AM
  #246
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I'm not a fan of a mediator since they have no power. I don't think Fehr or Bettman would change in any significant way. They are so used to being Alpha Lawyer that they'll be that no matter what.

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11-16-2012, 11:04 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Renbarg View Post
What am I missing here regarding Bettman. I heard Bettman suggested a moratorium, but it didn't gain traction.
yep the mighty Fair didn't hear a word he was sayin', only the echoes of his mind


Last edited by LadyStanley: 11-16-2012 at 11:10 AM. Reason: natd
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11-16-2012, 11:06 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by ONO94 View Post
In all honesty--I don't see why the NHL doesn't use an arbitrator for the case. I actually see that as a losing proposition for the NHLPA. What will the arbitrator use as comparable situations--the NBA, MLB and NFL. All of those leagues give players a much smaller piece of the pie when it comes to revenue percentages, so there really isn't much footing for the NHLPA to claim 57% or more. Even assuming the NHL is losing as much money as they say, expenses (like fuel, housing, rent, energy, healthcare, etc...) are all going up faster than revenue. And much of the revenue gains are related to the rise of the Canadian dollar vs. the American dollar over the term of the last CBA. Now that the dollars are at par, there is no reason to think that the loonie will gain another 20% value over the next term of the CBA.

I'd tell the NHL to let the arbitrator come in--maybe the NHLPA would actually be reasonable.
^^^^ agree. What does the NHL have to lose? (unless if there is much hidden info we know nothing about)

They could even do non-binding arbitration.

After meetings, maybe an arbitrator could give a 3rd party opinion of what to do w/ Phx and how that franchise (w/ no owner and low value in AZ, but larger value if moved) relates to the CBA and any recommendations on what to do with it.

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11-16-2012, 11:11 AM
  #249
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...9128--nhl.html

Hockey fan petitions US White House to intervene in NHL lockout.

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11-16-2012, 11:12 AM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Not really. Fehr's play is to just ignore it.
But they've already responded to it by refusing to take a two week break. Bettman and the owners will most likely hear back from Fehr in some form or another. This tactic is more or less a ploy to get the players to urge Fehr to craft something to bring both sides closer towards an agreement.

Remember, Fehr's initial response was that he has to discuss the suggestion of a moratorium with his players. They responded by refusing it. That tells me the players want to get a deal done rather than sit on their hands and wait for a favorable offer to come their way (which isn't happening).

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