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Hockey in Britain part 2

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04-18-2012, 10:26 AM
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Hockey in Britain part 2

Looks like we've reached 1,000 posts in the other thread!

Can a mod please sticky this and lock the previous one?

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04-18-2012, 10:47 AM
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Done!

Good job opening the new thread, I didn't realise this one got that big.

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04-18-2012, 10:55 AM
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Great win by the sounds of it but still a huge game against Japan to come.

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04-18-2012, 11:01 AM
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One of those rare occurences when you actually see an intelligent post on TheHockeyForum!

On the subject of under 10's/12's hockey:

Quote:
As for the travel element, why not do what sledgehockey does and have weekends or even just days? If you had 4 or 6 teams in a rink for a day you could play round-robin cross-ice 2x10 minute periods. 6 teams gives 15 round-robin games at what, half an hour each? With a quick turnaround, you only need 4 hours ice time and you could allow for a final between the top 2 if you really want.

This would work fantastically along the M4. Every few weeks you could have mini-tournaments in Cardiff, Swindon, Bristol, Oxford, Bracknell, Basingstoke, Slough, Guildford. There's 8 weekends with every kid getting 5 games at each event. That's 40 games a year. Why bung the kids on a coach to Peterborough for example to get their arses kicked in a 3x15 minute game on full ice? And then only have a dozen of those a year?

So, instead of Swindon junior hockey for example, hiring the link centre for Saturday afternoon and having 3 games, they could hire it for the same period one week and have an under-10s, next week under-12 and then maybe have a similar format for higher age groups but with 4 teams and full-ice? Surely a 13 year old doesn't need to be playing a full 60 minute game (or even 45 minutes). 3 20 minute games has got to be more fun and potentially more beneficial as they will probably at least stand a chance in one of them.
I think this is a great idea, it has already been decided for under 10's next season that they will play cross-ice for more productive use of ice time.

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04-18-2012, 11:43 AM
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Great to beat the Ukraine, but still 2 tough tests in Hungary and Japan.

Dowd again showing why in my opinion he is the best player in the EIHL.
Great all-round ability and a knack for the clutch.

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04-18-2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
One of those rare occurences when you actually see an intelligent post on TheHockeyForum!

On the subject of under 10's/12's hockey:

I think this is a great idea, it has already been decided for under 10's next season that they will play cross-ice for more productive use of ice time.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO!

I hate this cross-ice crap. It makes sense for everything but hockey development. When I first moved out of Ontario, I was introduced to the rink being divided in three for more players on the ice at once and it was sooooo bad, so unorganized. Yes, it cuts costs but there are no basic rules being taught. Proper faceoffs, offside, icing. No benches for line changing which is minor but still line changes are part of hockey. I have a passionate hate for this cross-ice crud!

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04-18-2012, 07:51 PM
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By the way, I was glad to see Great Britain come out on top 4-3 against Ukraine. Robert Dowd netted 3, gotta love it. Good to see guys like Dowd, Craig Peacock, Stephen Lee, David Phillips, etc. doing well. They're the future of Great Britain Hockey and look like the present as well.

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04-18-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO!

I hate this cross-ice crap. It makes sense for everything but hockey development. When I first moved out of Ontario, I was introduced to the rink being divided in three for more players on the ice at once and it was sooooo bad, so unorganized. Yes, it cuts costs but there are no basic rules being taught. Proper faceoffs, offside, icing. No benches for line changing which is minor but still line changes are part of hockey. I have a passionate hate for this cross-ice crud!
In under 10's the buzzer goes every 1 minute 15 seconds for a line change, half of the kids couldn't do a lap of the rink in that time. Yes it's all well and good playing full ice for the better players but for the rest of them cross ice will help them develop basic stickhandling, shooting and passing. The good players can just play up to under 12's if they want to play full ice. Cross ice may not be a great option for Canadian kids but for British kids it is because we just can't get the ice time, there are no frozen lakes for kids to play on. We seriously need to increase the player pool and do stuff that will benefit the mediocre players and not just the top players of their age. The top players get to play double the amount of games from playing up an age group and conference/England. Some kids will naturally develop later but that doesn't happen because they aren't given opportunities at a young age, if we can improve the mediocre players the depth of both the junior and adult leagues will improve over time and therefore the standard increases. Then in the long term we will start to develop better top players as well because they will be playing in a better league.

I also like it because it means I don't have to ref under 10's anymore. We are short of refs as it is, so this will mean less fixtures we need to fill.

Edit: Surely 40+ games of cross ice per season is better than 16 full ice games? Need the kids on the ice as much as possible.


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04-18-2012, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
In under 10's the buzzer goes every 1 minute 15 seconds for a line change, half of the kids couldn't do a lap of the rink in that time. Yes it's all well and good playing full ice for the better players but for the rest of them cross ice will help them develop basic stickhandling, shooting and passing. The good players can just play up to under 12's if they want to play full ice.
When I started hockey in Ontario at age 5, I couldn't skate. I remember I had to get an old lady walker with skies on the bottom to push around the ice to learn how to skate during practices. The entire year, every game I spent walking on the ice just trying to be involved. It made me really want to learn how to skate to play with the rest of the kids. By the time the next year rolled around, I was one of the better skaters on the ice. I went from a kid who played 30 odd games without touching the puck to a kid who put up 200+ points in my second season of hockey and even got a handful of games in the older age group

When I moved, I was 2 years ahead of kids because they spent 2 years chasing a puck on an ice surface divided into three sections. They didn't know how to line up for faceoffs, what offside or icing was, any basic rules really.

I have a picture of my hockey team from when I was 5 that has a current NHL hockey player in it. I have 10 or so pictures from my other teams in the area behind the times with 1 guy who was a goon in the CHL for a year

Someone might come in and say well the numbers in Ontario are way higher. I lived in quite the hick town in Ontario which only had 1 team per age group.

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04-18-2012, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
When I started hockey in Ontario at age 5, I couldn't skate. I remember I had to get an old lady walker with skies on the bottom to push around the ice to learn how to skate during practices. The entire year, every game I spent walking on the ice just trying to be involved. It made me really want to learn how to skate to play with the rest of the kids. By the time the next year rolled around, I was one of the better skaters on the ice. I went from a kid who played 30 odd games without touching the puck to a kid who put up 200+ points in my second season of hockey and even got a handful of games in the older age group
How often were you on the ice though? Kids in GB get 1 hour a week of practice on average, and never more than 20 games per season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
When I moved, I was 2 years ahead of kids because they spent 2 years chasing a puck on an ice surface divided into three sections. They didn't know how to line up for faceoffs, what offside or icing was, any basic rules really.
In GB you still see kids who don't know how to line up for faceoffs at U14 level, and that's under the current system playing full ice under 10's. All that stuff comes down to coaching.

You really can't compare Canada to GB, British kids need to have ice time more efficiently utilised, taking part in as much action as possible. Not all kids will be as motivated as you were, lots of them probably quit because they just aren't having fun not touching the puck every game.


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04-18-2012, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
How often were you on the ice though? Kids in GB get 1 hour a week of practice on average, and never more than 20 games per season.



In GB you still see kids who don't know how to line up for faceoffs at U14 level, and that's under the current system playing full ice under 10's. All that stuff comes down to coaching.

You really can't compare Canada to GB, British kids need to have ice time more efficiently utilised, taking part in as much action as possible. Not all kids will be as motivated as you were, lots of them probably quit because they just aren't having fun not touching the puck every game.
You say this nearly every time I post in here I don't know what you want me to say, my experiences come in Canada, what else am I meant to talk about? I've seen the cross-ice system in place for years and I know from experience it's trash. People have been complaining about it here for years and yes, I understand Great Britain and Canada are different places but if the system isn't working in a hockey mad nation, why would it work for a place with less interest and knowledge (mostly directed at coaches. Obviously there are exceptions).
We had more resources and we used this system and it didn't work, why would it work for a place with even less resources? I can't follow that at all.

Is there not groups lower than U10's? Is their U6's U8's or what? If kids are just getting started in hockey at the age of 8 or 9 the problem isn't how many kids can fit on the ice at once.

I believe you once told me that right now, hockey teams have trouble getting ice time as is. If this cross-ice system is meant to add to the number of players playing, when they grow up and can't play on an ice surface divided in three, where are they going to play? There will be a ton of hockey players with no ice time. It seems like it's simply going to add to the issues down the road?



On a completely unrelated note, is Scott Conway eligible for the CHL Import Draft? It looks like he isn't going to develop into the player a lot of people thought he might but I think he could still do some good at the CHL level. Very possible he could go the NCAA route as well.

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04-18-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
You say this nearly every time I post in here I don't know what you want me to say, my experiences come in Canada, what else am I meant to talk about? I've seen the cross-ice system in place for years and I know from experience it's trash. People have been complaining about it here for years and yes, I understand Great Britain and Canada are different places but if the system isn't working in a hockey mad nation, why would it work for a place with less interest and knowledge (mostly directed at coaches. Obviously there are exceptions).
We had more resources and we used this system and it didn't work, why would it work for a place with even less resources? I can't follow that at all.
I appreciate that cross ice may be bad but it's a better option than what we have now. The reality right now is that games just aren't competitive, this is why you can't compare Canada to GB, I assume the games are a lot more competitive in Canada. lets look at some under 12 results from this season. Basingstoke under 12's suffered losses of 32-2, 22-0, 23-1, 19-1, 17-3, 20-1. Guildford's tightest victory was 7-3. You have to ask yourself are the kids (on both sides) really getting anything from this? The proposed mini tournament would be a much better option. Like that poster said, what's the point of a three hour bus journey to Peterborough to play 45 minutes and get spanked when you could play several small games in a mini tournament in half the time spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
Is there not groups lower than U10's? Is their U6's U8's or what? If kids are just getting started in hockey at the age of 8 or 9 the problem isn't how many kids can fit on the ice at once.
No, there aren't enough players. Each team has three lines, the older and better players obviously on line one so they always play against each other in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
I believe you once told me that right now, hockey teams have trouble getting ice time as is. If this cross-ice system is meant to add to the number of players playing, when they grow up and can't play on an ice surface divided in three, where are they going to play? There will be a ton of hockey players with no ice time. It seems like it's simply going to add to the issues down the road?
They would be taught how to play properly though. The guy isn't proposing completely eradicating full ice league games, he's proposing having several of these mini tournaments a season for the kids to get more worthwhile ice time. It's only the under 10's who are playing only cross-ice next season, they will be taught once they reach under 12's how to play the game properly with offside and icings. It isn't like Canada where they will be behind the other kids, most of the kids (excluding the ones who have already played up) will be at the same stage. Again, it's all down to coaching. Furthermore, with the state of hockey in GB right now, I believe that developing the physical skills at that age is more important than teaching the finer points of the game, but that's just me and you're entitled to your opinion if you disagree.


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04-18-2012, 09:57 PM
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I was going to pick through each bit of your post to respond to everything individually but then I realized how tired I was and couldn't do it

Great Britain Hockey development has so many flaws before this cross-ice system so as much as I hate it, there are way bigger issues! The simple fact that kids aren't starting in hockey before they're 8 or 9 years old is crazy. I know you say interest isn't there but why is there enough for U10s but not for younger kids? Where were those kids that are in U10s when they were 5,6, or 7? Did they want to play but there wasn't enough interest or what?

I remember you saying in the past that teams have trouble getting ice time. That's probably my biggest beef with Great Britain Hockey right now. So is there just as much interest for U10s as there is for say U8s but they don't have ice time to have U8s?

I'd love to talk to the people in charge of hockey in Great Britain to hear what the hell they do.

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04-19-2012, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
I was going to pick through each bit of your post to respond to everything individually but then I realized how tired I was and couldn't do it
Another point I want to make is I think you overestimate the difficulty of the transition from cross ice to full ice. I know it's a different sport but I played football (soccer) at a young age and until U12 level we only played mini pitch tournaments every weekend. Then when we reached U12's we had to immediately transition to full size pitch 11 a side football, and honestly it really wasn't that difficult, we were coached well and taught all the technical stuff like offside and positioning and all that crap. I ended up quitting after 1 season of full size pitch because it was boring.

It was the same for rugby, a much more complicated technical sport. We played tag rugby on smaller pitches and then had to make the transition to full size, almost full contact rugby (excluding lifting in lineouts, pushing in scrums which were introduced at a later age for safety) and we had to learn a bunch of new skills and rules. In the end it came down to coaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
Great Britain Hockey development has so many flaws before this cross-ice system so as much as I hate it, there are way bigger issues! The simple fact that kids aren't starting in hockey before they're 8 or 9 years old is crazy. I know you say interest isn't there but why is there enough for U10s but not for younger kids? Where were those kids that are in U10s when they were 5,6, or 7? Did they want to play but there wasn't enough interest or what?
Precisely, we have bigger problems, this is why I can't stress enough how different we are to Canada. Obviously in Canada you have hockey traditions and all the kids want to play at a young age, in Britain at 5 years old kids don't think "I want to be a professional hockey player" The only players who start at that age are the ones who's parents are either fans or players and put them on the ice, and coincidentally they always turn out to be the better players. The ones who start later in general wanted to play because they went to watch a game, and half of those don't start playing because they probably get this kind of reaction from their parents "lol no, a pair of football boots cost 20, go play that"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
I remember you saying in the past that teams have trouble getting ice time. That's probably my biggest beef with Great Britain Hockey right now. So is there just as much interest for U10s as there is for say U8s but they don't have ice time to have U8s?
That's exactly right. I don't know about the interest part, under 10's teams have to ice a full 3 lines and some clubs only just manage to get that number. Realistically the only clubs I can think of that would have enough players to ice a full U8 team would be Swindon, Bracknell, Cardiff, Sheffield and Nottingham. Even if there were enough players you are correct there would not be enough ice time. In Cardiff rink alone there is the EIHL team, ENL1 and ENL2 team, a junior team at every age group, 3 university teams, and 4 or 5 rec teams. And they have to fit all of that ice time in around public skating and the figure skaters, but that should be fixed when they get their new arena with a dual ice pad.

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04-19-2012, 04:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 Problems View Post
Another point I want to make is I think you overestimate the difficulty of the transition from cross ice to full ice. I know it's a different sport but I played football (soccer) at a young age and until U12 level we only played mini pitch tournaments every weekend. Then when we reached U12's we had to immediately transition to full size pitch 11 a side football, and honestly it really wasn't that difficult, we were coached well and taught all the technical stuff like offside and positioning and all that crap. I ended up quitting after 1 season of full size pitch because it was boring.

It was the same for rugby, a much more complicated technical sport. We played tag rugby on smaller pitches and then had to make the transition to full size, almost full contact rugby (excluding lifting in lineouts, pushing in scrums which were introduced at a later age for safety) and we had to learn a bunch of new skills and rules. In the end it came down to coaching.

More skill needed in hockey though I'd imagine, there's all the stick stuff, skating, how to check properly etc.

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04-19-2012, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Thilander View Post
I remember you saying in the past that teams have trouble getting ice time. That's probably my biggest beef with Great Britain Hockey right now.
No rink in GB is owned by a hockey club. So all of them have to pay, generally quite high, costs for ice time.

"Back in the day", you would have found that most rinks actually ran hockey clubs too, but that seemed to die out over the years. In an economy where they can probably get more money for a public skating session, that leaves hockey clubs up **** creek.

But its probably the only problem that cant be changed, unless the hockey clubs strike oil or win the lottery, or some maniac buisnessman starts building ice rinks built for hockey, it wont change.

In short, hockey over here, for the most part has to play the cards its dealt. And at the moment we have a two of hearts, two jokers and that card that tells you how to play bridge

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04-19-2012, 06:12 AM
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Quote:
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More skill needed in hockey though I'd imagine, there's all the stick stuff, skating, how to check properly etc.
Exactly, that's why those skills need to be focused on and developed better at under 10 level, I believe cross ice will achieve this better than the current system. Teaching the game comes later, you can't do a breakout if you can't make a decent pass.

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04-19-2012, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
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The only players who start at that age are the ones who's parents are either fans or players and put them on the ice, and coincidentally they always turn out to be the better players.
Coincidentally? I doubt that. If the kids were in hockey longer it seems pretty obvious that they'd be better because they spent a lot more time developing.

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04-19-2012, 07:52 AM
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After Japan's upset win over Austria they are giving it to GB 4-0 in the 3rd

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04-19-2012, 08:07 AM
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It finishes 5-0 Japan. Shame.

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04-19-2012, 08:12 AM
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Coincidentally? I doubt that. If the kids were in hockey longer it seems pretty obvious that they'd be better because they spent a lot more time developing.
Sorry that should say uncoincidentally. I started playing at 14, I'm 19 now, and I managed to get into ENL2 straight out of juniors with only 2 years of under 18 experience under my belt, I hate thinking how much better I could be if I had started earlier. It was not possible for me to play hockey at a young age because of where I lived, if my family had not moved to where I live now then I would not be posting in here.

Looks like Japan have been the surprise of the tournament, if Ukraine beat Slovenia today we need to win our final game and Ukraine to lose theirs. If Ukraine lose both their remaining games we are safe. If they lose today and win on Saturday, we need to win on Saturday.


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04-19-2012, 08:12 AM
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Disappointing result.
Gonna have to keep an eye on Ukraine's last 2 games for relegation now.

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04-19-2012, 08:41 AM
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The set up for Div I is that if you win Div I Group B, you get promoted to Div I Group A and last in Div I Group A gets relegated to Div I Group B, correct?

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04-19-2012, 08:44 AM
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The set up for Div I is that if you win Div I Group B, you get promoted to Div I Group A and last in Div I Group A gets relegated to Div I Group B, correct?
This picture illustrates the new format:


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04-19-2012, 08:51 AM
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Alright that's what I thought it was. Looks like Great Britain will get to stick in Div I Group A for next year. Doubtful Ukraine gets out of last place playing against the 2 better teams.

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