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Scott Stevens vs Chris Pronger

View Poll Results: Better Player
Scott Stevens 66 38.15%
Chris Pronger 107 61.85%
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:49 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
IMO, Pronger didn't deserve the Hart. Bure did. But Pronger did win it, and Stevens was never in consideration for the Hart.
True, but Pronger was never in contention besides 2000 and he didn't have to beat out Gretz/Lemieux either.


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Playing his offensive prime in a lower scoring era than Stevens' big offensive years.
I'd say NJ deflated his pts just as much as the 80's inflated them.

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How did Stevens do in the postseason in the 1980s?
IMO, he was generally one of the best, if not Washintons best players, that franchise just does'nt know how to win come playoff time.


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Bourque, Coffey, Chelios, and MacInnis. Leetch could also be argued ahead of Stevens.
And which would/wouldn't you put above Pronger?

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So this is your all-time team, then?

Messier-Francis-Howe
Stevens-Chelios
Brodeur
Spare me the strawman, Stevens didn't add ~600 games of being a sieve. He was a physical force from day one. Yeah he ran around looking for the big hit too much in his Washinton days, but he was better way better than Pronger as a Whaler/non-NHL'er.


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Old
11-16-2012, 03:55 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The clean-ness of Stevens' game is overrated. He was definitely a dirty OB. Just because his hit on Lindros was clean and gets replayed on youtube a lot doesn't mean every hit was clean.

Stan Mikita won a few Lady Byngs. He was a dirty ******* in his early years.
No player can be anywhere near as physical as Stevens without being dirty, and I don't even think that's a bad thing. There's a skill to being dirty at the right times. Pronger was dirty in the wrong way, he didn't use dirty play to his advantage he used it to his teams detriment.

Mikita is like, the ultimate exception. His 180 from dirty SOB to gentleman overnight will never happen to that degree ever again.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:55 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
agree to disagree.
Agreed.

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Old
11-16-2012, 03:58 PM
  #29
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Top 2 defensemen of this generation

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11-16-2012, 05:21 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Early in his career, the Capitals considered moving Stevens to wing because his offense was that good. He had five seasons of 60+ points (including once 72 and once 78) and two more that fell just shy (57 and 59). Pronger only hit 60 once, albeit in a lower scoring era and having seasons of 56 and 59 (in 66 games) points as well. Stevens morphed into a defense-only guy later in his career, but he had quite a run as an offensive defenseman.
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Old
11-16-2012, 05:44 PM
  #31
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Scott Stevens.

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Old
11-16-2012, 05:46 PM
  #32
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Chris Pronger was a better player in my opinion. I would rather have Stevens on my team though.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:05 PM
  #33
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both are great dmen, but Pronger for controlling the overall game better.

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11-16-2012, 10:09 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Top 2 defensemen of this generation
There's a guy named Lidstrom.. 7 Norrises.. You heard of him? Or how about Bourque the 90pt scoring defensive monster with 5 Norrises to his name.

Don't exist in your world?

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:34 PM
  #35
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Only D man to win a heart since Bobby Orr. Chris could throw a team on his back, has to be him.

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Old
11-16-2012, 10:48 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
True, but Pronger was never in contention besides 2000 and he didn't have to beat out Gretz/Lemieux either.
Stevens was never in contention for third behind Gretzky and Lemieux. His Hart finishes:

1992 (9th) Tied with Norris-winner Leetch, as well as Linden and Gilmour. Behind Lemieux, ahead of Gretzky.

1994 (7th) Gretzky and Lemieux both finished behind him.

2001 (15th) Gretzky is retired. Behind Lemieux. Also behind Brodeur and Elias.

As we can see, Gretzky and Lemieux cost Stevens a number of Hart trophies.

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I'd say NJ deflated his pts just as much as the 80's inflated them.
So you're agreeing with the fact that his offense disappeared when he changed to a defensive style? Guess what; Pronger achieved that level of defense without losing the offense.

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IMO, he was generally one of the best, if not Washintons best players, that franchise just does'nt know how to win come playoff time.
Now you're just BSing to fit your stated position. I really hate it when people do that.

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And which would/wouldn't you put above Pronger?
Bourque definitely above. MacInnis probably not; MacInnis played what many considered to be his best years on the same team as Pronger and was behind Pronger on the depth chart. Chelios and Coffey I would probably put in the same range as Pronger.

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Spare me the strawman, Stevens didn't add ~600 games of being a sieve. He was a physical force from day one. Yeah he ran around looking for the big hit too much in his Washinton days, but he was better way better than Pronger as a Whaler/non-NHL'er.
Pronger was a Whaler for all of 124 games. He was excellent from the start in St. Louis.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:36 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
There's not one aspect of the game that Pronger does that is or was ever better than Stevens and that includes cheap shots.

Stevens in my opinion and it's not close.
Stevens was elbow-you-in-the-face dirty. Pronger was step-on-your-legs-with-his-skates dirty.

Pronger was criminally dirty.

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11-17-2012, 03:07 AM
  #38
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Stevens was amazing, but I think Pronger, especially post-lockout, put teams on his back in playoff runs. Philly and Edmonton had no business being where they were the years they made the Cup Finals.

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Old
11-17-2012, 04:35 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Stevens was elbow-you-in-the-face dirty. Pronger was step-on-your-legs-with-his-skates dirty.

Pronger was criminally dirty.
Is there that much of a difference? Id prefer a skate in the leg over an elbow in the head anyday IMO though

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11-17-2012, 07:37 AM
  #40
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Stevens got TWO elbowing penalties in his entire career.

The more you know.

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11-17-2012, 08:41 AM
  #41
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Loved them both

Loved Stevens more.
He was one of my favorite players to watch.

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11-17-2012, 08:46 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nowhereman View Post
Stevens was elbow-you-in-the-face dirty. Pronger was step-on-your-legs-with-his-skates dirty.

Pronger was criminally dirty.
More like shoulder to chest for Stevens. He simply did not take elbowing penalties. Only four in his entire 22 season career.

Pronger was dirty, and seemingly delighted in being called dirty.

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Originally Posted by MAB4Norris View Post
Stevens was amazing, but I think Pronger, especially post-lockout, put teams on his back in playoff runs. Philly and Edmonton had no business being where they were the years they made the Cup Finals.
Stevens has a well deserved Conn Smythe. Then there are his series changing hits, and an intangible intimidation factor that changed the behaviour of opposing forwards when he was on the ice. Nobody carried the puck across the blue line against Stevens, they meekly dumped it in the corner and went to change.

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Originally Posted by GM17 View Post
Stevens got TWO elbowing penalties in his entire career.

The more you know.
It's actually four, but still. Zach Parise, that noted dirtbag (), has more elbowing penalties in his career already.

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11-17-2012, 09:22 AM
  #43
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Personally, I always "liked" Stevens as a player waaay more than Pronger. Regardless, both are welcome to play on my Hypothetical Team anytime.

Also, and it pains me to say, I gotta vote Pronger here. I never saw Stevens (pretty much) single-handedly carry a team the way I saw Pronger do.

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11-17-2012, 10:59 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by GM17 View Post
Stevens got TWO elbowing penalties in his entire career.

The more you know.
He also spent the majority of his career in the DPE where you could grab a player from behind and drag him down on a breakaway and still not get a penalty. His elbows were always high he was just never called. I'm not going to get into an arguement about it because 1 I'm obviously biased because I'm a flyers fan, and 2 nothing you say can convince me that while watching a top 10 video of Stevens hits the majority of them are not elbows.

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11-17-2012, 11:00 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Stevens was never in contention for third behind Gretzky and Lemieux. His Hart finishes:

1992 (9th) Tied with Norris-winner Leetch, as well as Linden and Gilmour. Behind Lemieux, ahead of Gretzky.

1994 (7th) Gretzky and Lemieux both finished behind him.

2001 (15th) Gretzky is retired. Behind Lemieux. Also behind Brodeur and Elias.

As we can see, Gretzky and Lemieux cost Stevens a number of Hart trophies.
Since when is "he didn't have to beat out Gretz/Lemieux either." synonymous with "Gretzky and Lemieux cost Stevens a number of Hart trophies"

Pronger has a better Hart voting record, but it was also against weaker competition.

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So you're agreeing with the fact that his offense disappeared when he changed to a defensive style? Guess what; Pronger achieved that level of defense without losing the offense.
Pronger began outscoring Stevens by large margins once he got Duchesne's PP minutes, previous to that their point total were very similar. Personally I think Stevens was slightly better defensively but the difference is negligible at best.

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Now you're just BSing to fit your stated position. I really hate it when people do that.
Tell me, who are all the Washington players you thought out-played Stevens come playoff time? The only other guy that even seemed to give a **** half the time was Hunter.


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Bourque definitely above. MacInnis probably not; MacInnis played what many considered to be his best years on the same team as Pronger and was behind Pronger on the depth chart. Chelios and Coffey I would probably put in the same range as Pronger.
I think Chelios and Coffey were definitely better but fair enough.

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Pronger was a Whaler for all of 124 games. He was excellent from the start in St. Louis.
I didn't think he was excellent till the Olympic year.

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:20 AM
  #46
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There's a guy named Lidstrom.. 7 Norrises.. You heard of him? Or how about Bourque the 90pt scoring defensive monster with 5 Norrises to his name.

Don't exist in your world?
Yeah Lidstrom the most overrated Hockey player of all time.

I think of Bourque as an 80s player not in the same generation as Stevens, Pronger and Lidstrom

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11-18-2012, 12:21 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
nothing you say can convince me that while watching a top 10 video of Stevens hits the majority of them are not elbows.
This is a common accusation. Look at the videos again. His arm always starts tucked into his side, he hits with the shoulder and then his arm comes out in order to follow through on the hit and launch the opponent. He's not actually leading with the elbow, which is the definition of elbowing.

It's the same concept as when a player appears to leave his skates when making a hit, but really it was contact of the hit that caused him to leave the ice. That's never called charging, and correctly so.

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11-18-2012, 01:47 AM
  #48
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Before I make my point, let me say that I'm actually voting Stevens.

But I would just like to say that the idea that low-scoring Devils teams deflated his offense is a myth.

In 1999, 2000, and 2001, the Devils were 2nd, 2nd, and 1st in the NHL in goals scored respectively. The idea that the Devils dynasty was a whole bunch of low-scoring trap teams is a total myth. They were the most dangerous offense in the league.

That being said, I'm taking Stevens for his ability to adapt to drastically changing roles mid-career, and his animalistic hitting ability, the likes of which may never be seen again. Pronger was dirty, cheap, mean, and a criminal, and like that, but Stevens could kill a man with his shoulder.

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11-18-2012, 02:43 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
But I would just like to say that the idea that low-scoring Devils teams deflated his offense is a myth.

In 1999, 2000, and 2001, the Devils were 2nd, 2nd, and 1st in the NHL in goals scored respectively. The idea that the Devils dynasty was a whole bunch of low-scoring trap teams is a total myth. They were the most dangerous offense in the league.
Love this part of your post. This is a myth that is shared by the vast majority of members on this site, and I don't blame them. The Devils are widely remembered as a team coached by Jacques Lemaire who introduced the trap to the game of hockey. They are noted for their generational goaltender Martin Brodeur, Hall of Fame defenseman Scott Stevens and Scott Niedermayer, as well as longtime defensive defenseman Ken Daneyko. The Devils are almost never noted for their offensive ability or balance offensive attack that greatly assisted in winning their 3 Stanley Cups.

Real great post, keep it up.

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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Yeah Lidstrom the most overrated Hockey player of all time.

I think of Bourque as an 80s player not in the same generation as Stevens, Pronger and Lidstrom
Dude Ray Bourque won the Stanley Cup and retired after the turn of the century. He recorded like 5 80pt+ seasons, 3 Norrises and 6 1st Team All Star berths throughout the 90s. Bourque is undoubtedly an 80s and 90s player having played 22 seasons starting in 79-80 and ending in 00-01. Scott Steven's career span follows a similar trajectory beginning in 82-83 and ending in 03-04.

Regardless, all 4 of Bourque, Stevens, Lidstrom and Pronger's careers considerably overlapped -- making them a part of the same generation.

I'm not even going to address your opinion on Lidstrom, his embarrassingly decorated rťsumť speaks for itself.

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Old
11-18-2012, 02:59 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
This is a common accusation. Look at the videos again. His arm always starts tucked into his side, he hits with the shoulder and then his arm comes out in order to follow through on the hit and launch the opponent. He's not actually leading with the elbow, which is the definition of elbowing.

It's the same concept as when a player appears to leave his skates when making a hit, but really it was contact of the hit that caused him to leave the ice. That's never called charging, and correctly so.
Scott Stevens is 6'2 explain to me how in almost every one of these clips his "tucked" elbow is the main point of contact on almost every one besides the first 2. Or how its just convenient that he has it up after a huge hit in almost all of these once it is clearly visible. I can't ***** and whine about it. He hit well within the rules of the game back then but trying to make him out as a saint and some perfectly clean hitter who never elbows anyone is ridiculous. That's like me trying to tell you Lindros never left his feet on any hits because he was never called for a charging penalty. Dirty is dirty whether it is my team or your team.


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