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Blue Jays sign Melky Cabrera (2 years, 16 million)

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Old
11-18-2012, 09:08 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
Throw Petite up there as well.
How about other former Yankees like Jason Giambi and Roger Clemens.

Even David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez tested postive during their times with Boston.

So are people going to focus on the Blue Jays because they are the only Canadian team in the AL East and in MLB that is trying to improve their team and people want to forget or refuse to bring up how the Yankees and Red Sox all had players testing postive, even though back then they didn't have those 50 game suspensions.

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11-19-2012, 01:07 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
He's been relatively healthy 3 out of the last 4 years. No doubt that if he goes down it'll be tough to fill, but given that we got 2 big league pitchers and only gave up 1, everyone was bumped down the depth chart at least one spot.. I also wouldn't rule out signing another veteran for insurance. Happ is supposed to be the 5th starter and broke his leg last year, Romero had elbow surgery, Morrow missed time with injury and JJ hasn't exactly been an iron man. Buehrle is the only reliable guy we have now, and even he's aging so I don't know how willing I would be to bet on 200+ IP from him.

I would honestly be suprised if AA didn't sign a veteran 4-5 guy, or possibly a long reliever who can make spot starts if needed.
That would be a very smart move. The Jays struggled mightily last season when starters hit the DL.

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I can't even argue how bad Romero was last year, he was downright awful.. But I think with the added support around him, he'll rebound
I hope so. He's fun to watch when he has it all together.

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I think he moves pretty well for a big man, and he does have a good arm, just isn't accurate at times... He struggled at times getting off a quick throw and putting it on target from 3rd. I really like him at 1st base.
He has always had a good glove when he gets the ball. His problem has always been his throws. 1st is his best position to play in the field, but he won't be winning any gold gloves.

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If I'm not mistaken, he wasn't allowed to go past 6 after he returned from injury.. A few times he had gems going and was still pulled after 6.
That's not surprising. The key for him is keeping the pitchcount low so he can be the ace. He's a dominant as they come, but he sometimes throws too many balls and gets out of games too early.

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Theres no stamina issues with a healthy Brandon Morrow. I'd argue he's the staff ace, even with a healthy JJ and rebounded Ricky Romero.
It's definitely between him and Johnson.

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It is great though? The best, if not second best in baseball?
I believe it will be a very good division. But, we'll have to see how the games play out.

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They had the best pitching staff last year too, with Upton. Didn't they lose like 9 games 1-0 last year? They'll be hard pressed to score runs. Can a team with the best or near best ERA still be successful when they're one of the worst offensive teams? I guess we'll see.
That pitching staff will keep them in just about every game, though. Also, they lose Upton, but they hopefully get a full season out of Longoria.

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11-19-2012, 01:08 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
How about other former Yankees like Jason Giambi and Roger Clemens.

Even David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez tested postive during their times with Boston.

So are people going to focus on the Blue Jays because they are the only Canadian team in the AL East and in MLB that is trying to improve their team and people want to forget or refuse to bring up how the Yankees and Red Sox all had players testing postive, even though back then they didn't have those 50 game suspensions.
1 guy made that comment. One. No one here is focusing negatively on the Blue Jays because they signed Melky.

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11-19-2012, 03:11 AM
  #154
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Steroids do make a minor difference in some areas, but it is way overblown by most people. Furthermore when you're at a high level there is very little difference the added muscle mass will do for you (Eg Bautista. He doesn't hit bombs with his twig arms, he hits them with form.) I mean, if I ran a cycle of dianabol and hit the cages before and after it would probably be a huge difference in every way, but I don't have anywhere near the technique or ability they do.

Also, there is a really good chance that the guys cycling steroids are the hardest workers in the MLB. If you don't agree you're incredibly ignorant to what happens when you take steroids and don't eat and train your ass off.

I just thought I would clear that up. Carry on.

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11-19-2012, 03:27 AM
  #155
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honestly, as a jays fan and a physiology grad student, i'm more worried about the loss of the placebo effect than anything with cabrera.

from the studies i've read, after power (an area cabrera didnt really improve that much), the most significant effect of anabolic steroids (and therefore testosterone) is the placebo effect, or in other words the boost in confidence a player who is juicing gets from the knowledge that they are juicing.

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11-19-2012, 03:32 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by danishh View Post
honestly, as a jays fan and a physiology grad student, i'm more worried about the loss of the placebo effect than anything with cabrera.

from the studies i've read, after power (an area cabrera didnt really improve that much), the most significant effect of anabolic steroids (and therefore testosterone) is the placebo effect, or in other words the boost in confidence a player who is juicing gets from the knowledge that they are juicing.
Two important things to consider also:

- When you stop cycling you lose a fairly decent amount of strength gained while on steroids. There is an official number out there, but I think it was something in the range of 15%.

- That considered, it would be incredibly illogical to cycle anything serious (Serious meaning anything that could possibly yield any actual performance enhancement in regards to Baseball) during a Baseball season. You simply don't have enough time to train and eat enough (and to the extent) that you should while cycling. So I would be shocked if any players cycled seriously during a season...so aside from any muscle and strength gained during the offseason which steroids would only marginally increase during their offseason...there isn't a lot if any performance enhancing going on.

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11-19-2012, 06:07 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Which I disagree. The only team that has improved their roster so far is the Jays.
I'm saying you bring up the past 20 years because I mention Jays being in a tough spot right now due to the division

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11-19-2012, 06:20 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
Do you really think so? They're losing Swisher, maybe Kuroda and who knows what they'll get out of A-Rod. Jeter is coming off an injury, which will likely hinder him at a position he already has no range at. Pineda will miss another season and Soriano is likely gone. The Yanks have serious question marks at this time.

Why should he? He won't if he has another season of 1/1 SO/BB.

Dunn was injured and had issues with Guillen. 2 totally different scenarios involving 2 completely different players.

Maybe, but that's quite a bit to expect. Time will tell.

I simply can't call Romero a quality pitcher until he looks like the guy from 2010. There have been a lot of young pitchers with 2-3 good years to start a career who then flame out.

Happ is the definition of Average. He's nothing more than a long guy/filler.

That is true. Some more than others.
I hope you're right

Because he did the previous 2 seasons? Last season there was lots of pressure on him to pitch and go deep into games.

Maybe not a sub 3 but he has always had great stuff. Just was inconsistent with it. But if you think Romero will struggle due to last year, you must really like Morrow.

2011 he was just as good. Romeros numbers don't lie, he was terrible last year. Command was way off but my guess is he rebounds with the extra help. I'd kill for us to go after Greinke but its a big pipe dream. Our spending is likely done.

Happ as your 5th still is good. He isn't great, just saying its not bad as your number 5. Wouldn't mind adding Marcum or someone though

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11-19-2012, 10:17 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by mapes View Post
I hope you're right

Because he did the previous 2 seasons? Last season there was lots of pressure on him to pitch and go deep into games.

Maybe not a sub 3 but he has always had great stuff. Just was inconsistent with it. But if you think Romero will struggle due to last year, you must really like Morrow.

2011 he was just as good. Romeros numbers don't lie, he was terrible last year. Command was way off but my guess is he rebounds with the extra help. I'd kill for us to go after Greinke but its a big pipe dream. Our spending is likely done.

Happ as your 5th still is good. He isn't great, just saying its not bad as your number 5. Wouldn't mind adding Marcum or someone though
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Marcum come in and they can move Happ to the bullpen for long relief and spot starts as an insurance policy. The pitcher I'm actually most interested in seeing back in the line up in Santos. His first few outings last year were disappointing but he got inured so early on it was impossible to get a real read on him.

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11-19-2012, 10:42 AM
  #160
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I honestly forgot about Santos. Lincoln is interesting too. Both have swing and miss stuff

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11-19-2012, 12:53 PM
  #161
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Prove it? Are you serious?

Mind you, you still need to know how to hit for it to make a difference, I can't take roids and suddenly know how to hit. But before Bonds took roids, he was still a great hitter. Roids just made him hit the ball further. Sosa, Big Mac. These guys knew how to hit. But if borderline MLB'ers take roids, nobody will notice. It's why I laugh at people who suggest Bautista takes steroids because he went from a career high of 16 home runs to 54. That's not how steroids work. They aren't magic.
Well, has it ever been proven what role overall strength plays in hitting a home run? How much of a role does swinging at the right pitch and your timing play?

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11-19-2012, 10:10 PM
  #162
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all of your power comes from your lower body. muscling up your arms and torso would really only hinder you mechanically because there's more to get through the zone.

but i'm sure bonds and others only took "lower body" steroids and not ones that would effect his upper half and interfere with his swing.

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11-19-2012, 10:57 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
all of your power comes from your lower body. muscling up your arms and torso would really only hinder you mechanically because there's more to get through the zone.

but i'm sure bonds and others only took "lower body" steroids and not ones that would effect his upper half and interfere with his swing.
Yes, that is why armless players are so abundant in this league...

We know quick hips and strong legs are the fundamentals for a good swing but it's not like you can have the upper body of a fetus and expects results.

Yes, steroids generally target the upper body but it's not like it completely ignores the lower half, especially if you isolate those muscles in workouts. I don't think it's worth getting into because it's a dead end.

Steroids and PEDs effect the body, plain and simple. From there who knows what the chain reaction is leading to on field performance. We know they aren't magic pills that turn singles into home runs, but it effects your athletic ability and the athlete that you are and that just can't be quantified in numbers since you can't take the same player on PEDs and off PEDs and put them in the same situation with the same factors. Sports isn't like that.


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11-19-2012, 11:08 PM
  #164
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I actually didn't know that steroids are used mostly for upper body development. I figured it would help build muscle mass in your entire body. Why does it only (or mostly) apply to just the upper body?

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11-19-2012, 11:44 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by The New Originals View Post
I actually didn't know that steroids are used mostly for upper body development. I figured it would help build muscle mass in your entire body. Why does it only (or mostly) apply to just the upper body?

Because you have to exercise when on roids (you can just get on the cycle and expect results) and people only build up top half. You wont see someone get on roids and then do squats, lunges and deadlifts.

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11-20-2012, 04:03 AM
  #166
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o rly?

That retort would have been perfect if i did not despise the yanks . But i get where you are going with the pic. Toronto always wanting to be like New York, even when it comes to juice heads.;]

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11-20-2012, 09:37 AM
  #167
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Because you have to exercise when on roids (you can just get on the cycle and expect results) and people only build up top half. You wont see someone get on roids and then do squats, lunges and deadlifts.
I'm not saying you're wrong but I'd love to know how you know that. Do you not think players are a lot more informed about steroids and how they work then we are. They likely know how to get the best results out of the juice.

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11-20-2012, 09:41 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
all of your power comes from your lower body. muscling up your arms and torso would really only hinder you mechanically because there's more to get through the zone.

but i'm sure bonds and others only took "lower body" steroids and not ones that would effect his upper half and interfere with his swing.
I've seen you argue on here many times that steroids aren't performence enhancing, so I have one simple question for you. If steroids don't help improve your game then why do players take them? They know they're illegal and if they don't help why take them?

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11-20-2012, 11:20 AM
  #169
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Ok, Toronto, you got your mega-press conference. Happy?

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11-20-2012, 12:00 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
I've seen you argue on here many times that steroids aren't performence enhancing, so I have one simple question for you. If steroids don't help improve your game then why do players take them? They know they're illegal and if they don't help why take them?
It's been repeatedly proven that corking your bat doesn't improve your power, yet players still do it. The simple answer here is that professional athletes aren't all that bright.

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Originally Posted by danishh
honestly, as a jays fan and a physiology grad student, i'm more worried about the loss of the placebo effect than anything with cabrera.

from the studies i've read, after power (an area cabrera didnt really improve that much), the most significant effect of anabolic steroids (and therefore testosterone) is the placebo effect, or in other words the boost in confidence a player who is juicing gets from the knowledge that they are juicing.
Ironically, getting busted may end up helping Cabrera by keeping him motivated. Going all the way back to New York, you can draw a startlingly clear line between Melky's performance and what kind of shape he's in. One would think that he'd be hyper-motivated to prove himself this season, which bodes well for Toronto.

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11-20-2012, 04:47 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
I've seen you argue on here many times that steroids aren't performence enhancing, so I have one simple question for you. If steroids don't help improve your game then why do players take them? They know they're illegal and if they don't help why take them?
We shouldn't assume perfect rationality from any group of people, let alone professional athletes.

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11-20-2012, 05:53 PM
  #172
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It's been repeatedly proven that corking your bat doesn't improve your power, yet players still do it. The simple answer here is that professional athletes aren't all that bright.
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We shouldn't assume perfect rationality from any group of people, let alone professional athletes.
You guys have a good point and I'm sure lots if not most athletes aren't that bright. I just would've thought that with so much on the line they'd get informed properly about what they're doing. In Melky's case, I really hope steroids did have very little effect on his game and he puts up the same numbers this year.

BTW - Awesome handle and avatar. Slim's one of the best tv characters of all time.

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11-20-2012, 06:20 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by llb9977 View Post
That retort would have been perfect if i did not despise the yanks . But i get where you are going with the pic. Toronto always wanting to be like New York, even when it comes to juice heads.;]
Do you even watch baseball?

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11-20-2012, 10:07 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by DaaaaB's View Post
I've seen you argue on here many times that steroids aren't performence enhancing, so I have one simple question for you. If steroids don't help improve your game then why do players take them? They know they're illegal and if they don't help why take them?
my issue is two-fold:

1- if steroids work as you and others seem to think; that merely ingesting these drugs makes you stronger and thus a better baseball player, how does one explain the list of bad baseball players who have admitted to being on the gas? at the end of the day, talent is what matters. most professional athletes take supplements, anything to allow them to jump higher, run faster, etc. if they believe that steroids work as they think they do...they're going to do them.

http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

i've linked to this website before, as have others, and it goes widely ignored. i just have a hard time believing that a player takes a drug and is magically transformed into an outstanding player. look at the names on the mitchell report, if you want to waste some time someday, or even look at the admitted users. tom house? paxton crawford? oh sure, sheffield admitted that he was using. gary sheffield was a great player. what did they do for jeremy giambi and shane monahan?

2- i have a hard time blaming the players for not only believing in the effects of steroids but also their willingness to take them. the average mlb career is about five years. let's say you're a borderline player as it is. you might make the league minimum, maybe a little more, let's say 700k for five years. that's before taxes, expenses, etc...so that's 2 million you have for you and your family to live the rest of your life with? or, you could take this pill and work out more and maybe make a million a year? 2 million a year? i think steroids have a bit of a placebo effect in both players and in fans. players are mostly stupid. they're sold on making more money for the reasons i just mentioned and would like to possibly turn that 700k x 5 years into 1m x 7 years (or more!) and see an opportunity. look at the guys busted this year: guillermo mota; freddy galvas; marlon byrd; melky cabrera; bartolo colon; yasmani grandal. a murderer's row! it's mota's second bust, as he's 39 and trying to stay in the league. galvas? .617 ops in 58 games. byrd? .488 ops in 47 games for two teams. grandal? small sample but he looks like he hit well. steroids in action?! he hit well on the road and not at home...i thought steroids made balls go farther (.392 slg at home).

my ultimate point is that fans and newspaper writers and bloggers, even players...we don't really know what's going on with these drugs. we know that players are forbidden from taking them. as i said above (and others in the thread before me) players are stupid. they cork bats. they slide into first base. they take drugs that have not shown a cumulative effect on their usage v. the player's abilities.

and apologies if my ramblings are a bit off, i have been drinking. fair warning.

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11-20-2012, 10:42 PM
  #175
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Usually the warning goes at the beginning, RT.

Good post.

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