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NHL Lockout Discussion: Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage

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Old
11-17-2012, 11:55 AM
  #1
TMI
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NHL Lockout Discussion: Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage

OK we are now allowing lockout talk on the NHL Talk forum. If you would like to voice your opinions of the negotiations and those involved you may do so here.

A few ground rules before we get started:
  • All site rules will still apply, obviously
  • You may post links to news stories, but we will not have a separate thread for that. If you only want news without the discussion there is a thread on the BoH
  • This will be the ONLY Lockout discussion thread on the NHL Talk forum. Do not post new threads for the purpose of discussing the lockout.
  • People are entitled to their opinions. If you have an issue with a post and you feel it breaks a rule, report it and let us handle it. Otherwise your options are to reply in a respectful manner to correct the perceived error, or simply ignore the user. Vigilante troll hunting will result in infractions.

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11-17-2012, 11:56 AM
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rojac
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
Y'know, I can't help to think that the NHL might've taken the NHLPA up on their "negotiate while playing under the old CBA offer" if the NHLPA's union head wasn't Don Fehr.
Why? It's not like Fehr was the first union leader to strike just before the playoffs. Bob Goodenow had the NHLPA go on strike on April 1, 1992.

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11-17-2012, 11:59 AM
  #3
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Really sucks that something so great, something that is loved by so many around the world, is led and dictated by such a small group. Crazy that even most of the owners of these teams are powerless in this mess.

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11-17-2012, 12:03 PM
  #4
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Originally Posted by colchar View Post
And Bettman isn't trying to make up for the mistakes he made the last time?

Yup there is a big difference between trying to fix problems and just being ********.


What gives you or anyone else the right to tell people what labour conditions/contract conditions they should accept?

Because every pro league even the ones with a salary cap the revenues go up the salaries go up the players are cutting off their nose to spite their faces can't help you if you can't see that.


But in your mind the players should give up millions in earnings for our entertainment just so a bunch of spoiled owners can make a few extra grand?

No I think the players should give up a few million so their industry is healthier and the people that take all the financial risk and fund the industry that pays them can break even.


I am disgusted by the greed, stupidity, and pettiness of the owners and am also disgusted by those 'fans' who cannot see what the owners are doing here.
I see exactly what the owners are doing here but I side with them because why should they lose money that they EARNED for our entertainment and to fund spoiled players.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:04 PM
  #5
colchar
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Playing hockey and working out is a lot easier than going to school, studying hard, working hard, and building a successful life or business completely on your own.
No, it is not. I have played hockey at a high level and I have a Master's degree. Both require work and commitment. Granted, the kind of work is different but that does not mean that playing hockey does not require work (I'm talking here about those who play at an elite and/or professional level).



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What's really not fair is most people spend their entire lives doing that stuff trying to become successful while hockey players can make millions easily, essentially because they hit the genetic lottery.
If you think it is easy then you haven't a clue about what it takes to play hockey, or any other sport, at an elite level. And they did not all hit the genetic lottery - there is an unbelievable amount of hard work that goes into being successful as an athlete and only a lucky few can get by primarily on genetics. There is hard work involved in being successful at anything and claiming that hockey players come by their success easily just demonstrates that you have no idea what it actually takes to make it to the NHL.




Quote:
And the things normal people do are a lot more beneficial to society than becoming a hockey player.

The things some normal people do might be, but to insinuate that what all normal people do is more beneficial to society is just plain silly.


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You're idolizing entertainers instead of entrepreneaurs and innovators, and equating fame to importance and intellect.
No, I don't think many people are actually doing that.



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People like Ron burkle who's grocery stores helped feed millions on the west coast
Are you so naive as to think he did that to be benevolent? Here is a news flash for you - he didn't 'feed' people, he sold them food for the purpose of making a profit. He didn't run a charity and give food away, he ran a business the purpose of which was to maximize profit.


Quote:
ed snider who brought vast amounts of info to the masses with his IT networks

Again, do you think he did that to be benevolent? He did it to make profits.


Quote:
Or terry pegula whose natural gas company employed thousands and helped make energy cheaper.
Once again, he ran that company in order to make profits, not to benefit mankind as you seem to suggest. And his company employed fracking, a practice which has been criticized for depleting drinking water resources in local communities and polluting the wells of people living near the operations of companies that employ this technique. Oh yeah, he is so benevolent he is downright saintly.


Last edited by colchar: 11-17-2012 at 12:48 PM. Reason: crap
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Old
11-17-2012, 12:05 PM
  #6
Ragamuffin Gunner
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It just boggles my mind that the players are willing to forfeit an entire year of their short playing careers and millions of dollars over a 7% reduction in HRR and some contract restrictions that only a few players took advantage of anyway (IIRC someone posted that under 100 players have contracts that are 6 years or longer).

This lockout will not only cost them millions of real dollars this year it will hurt HRR, which will cost them potential dollars down the road.

****ing idiots.

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11-17-2012, 12:05 PM
  #7
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At the end of the day, we the fan, have a voice but refuse to use it. Don't go to games when this train wreck comes back. I don't plan on watching games for the rest of the year or purchase any NHL merchandise. I also will NOT attend a NHL game until the owners grow a pair and get a new commish.

Don't want to get into the players/Fehr fault vs. the owners and Count Chocula. At the end of the day it's Bettman's job to run the league. Buck stops with him.

I know that its hard for the diehards to do this but this is the ONLY way our voice can be heard.

I am not a casual fan as I have been watching and playing the game since I have been 6. I am 44 now.

Hopefully something positive and CHANGE will come out of this after all is said and done.

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11-17-2012, 12:07 PM
  #8
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Originally Posted by Scoobs View Post
Y'know, I can't help to think that the NHL might've taken the NHLPA up on their "negotiate while playing under the old CBA offer" if the NHLPA's union head wasn't Don Fehr.
The NHLPA's offer to play while negotiating a new CBA would be more sincere had they been willing to do so last year. Apparently last year negotiating during the regular season was too much of a distraction though.

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11-17-2012, 12:12 PM
  #9
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NHLwiki ‏@NHLwiki
#NHL #CBA #NHLPA -- B.Daly tells Denver Post's Adrian Dater that NHL & PA have resumed informal talks. Believes neg. resume in early week.
This get posted already? Good news to me.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:13 PM
  #10
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What's the difference between this thread and the one in the Biz forum?

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11-17-2012, 12:15 PM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
It just boggles my mind that the players are willing to forfeit an entire year of their short playing careers and millions of dollars over a 7% reduction in HRR and some contract restrictions that only a few players took advantage of anyway (IIRC someone posted that under 100 players have contracts that are 6 years or longer).

This lockout will not only cost them millions of real dollars this year it will hurt HRR, which will cost them potential dollars down the road.

****ing idiots.
Going from 57% to 50% is a 12.3% reduction. It's not 7% out of 100 that they're cutting. It's 7% of 57. Just niggling.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:16 PM
  #12
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The one on the BoH is going to be closed. There is no difference except location.

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11-17-2012, 12:16 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by Potrzebie View Post
Well, they want to tell the league how much revenue sharing there should be and how it should be distributed, for one.
Because, again, they are the product. They are what the league is selling, promoting, marketing, etc. It's why we know the names Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Crosby, Ovechkin, etc. They are faces of the league, of hockey in general, and that makes them very, very important to the business model to help generate interest, storylines, and excitement. The players are partners, not subservient employees in the traditional sense. This is what the fans don't seem to understand.

And they are not "telling" the league anything. They are negotiating revenue sharing (among other things) which is something that is not limited to sports leagues. Other industries and companies do revenue sharing with their employees. And haven't the players already agreed to come down to a 50/50 split? Seems fair. The league wants a lot more though and the fans, more so than in 2004, are on the side of the owners even though they were lied to when they were assured by Bettman that this would be the CBA that "solve all the problems!" Now here we are again.

This lockout is about the owners deciding that they've given the employees too large of a slice of the pie, and they want it back.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:19 PM
  #14
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People saying that the NHLPA needs to offer its members an introductory course in economics have obviously never taken an introductory level course in economics. If they had, they'd have realized that early-level economics courses generally give you no practical knowledge at all. And I'm saying this as someone with a master's degree in economics.

A few basic finance courses, on the other hand, would probably be useful. But then again, the same thing would apparently be useful to a lot of posters here on both sides of the debate.


e: And as for the TV deal tripling thing - well, that's actually probably going to happen in the next few years. Both TSN and CBC are coming up for renewal, and they're both likely to pay at least double what they paid last time around. However, you have to keep in mind that the NHL is mostly a gate-driven league, and those national TV deals don't represent a significant portion of overall league revenue. Hell, in the context of TV deals, the individual deals with the teams themselves (think Sportsnet, MSG, RDS, TSN Jets, etc.), are probably worth at least as much, as a whole, as those national deals.
I said that and I am actually an Econ major at UCLA. The first course I took helped me to greatly understand more than just numbers - it gave me a new way of thinking. That is what I was talking about.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:20 PM
  #15
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Going from 57% to 50% is a 12.3% reduction. It's not 7% out of 100 that they're cutting. It's 7% of 57. Just niggling.
You even bolded that I said "in HRR". WTF?

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11-17-2012, 12:22 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Going from 57% to 50% is a 12.3% reduction. It's not 7% out of 100 that they're cutting. It's 7% of 57. Just niggling.
Argh... I've seen this argued both ways throughout this entire lockout, and it's really obnoxious. It's a case where the math is being manipulated to look as good/bad as the writer wants it to.

It's 7% reduction of the entirety of HRR.
It's a 12.3% reduction of what players are currently getting.

Both are equally accurate.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:22 PM
  #17
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Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post


I was thinking the exact same thing, it would be fascinating !! I also would love to see the actual numbers for last season. With Sniders age and his no care attitude towards money, it could become insane if he starts to go hard against Gary. As stated above, I truly believe the heat he is taking in Philly will force his hand.

Have you read the Bettman book, I hate the guy with a passion but friends have said it is a fantastic read and have highly recommended it.
Thanks!

Our kids and grandkids are going to be asking us about it and won't believe us when we try to explain how a lockout can happen over nothing. We'll need evidence and can hand them the book.

The Gatehouse book is a great read and should be required reading for everyone participating in this thread. That Ian White should have a look at it as well.


Last edited by Mike Jones: 11-17-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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Old
11-17-2012, 12:23 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by thinicer View Post
Because, again, they are the product. They are what the league is selling, promoting, marketing, etc. It's why we know the names Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Crosby, Ovechkin, etc. They are faces of the league, of hockey in general, and that makes them very, very important to the business model to help generate interest, storylines, and excitement. The players are partners, not subservient employees in the traditional sense. This is what the fans don't seem to understand.

And they are not "telling" the league anything. They are negotiating revenue sharing (among other things) which is something that is not limited to sports leagues. Other industries and companies do revenue sharing with their employees. And haven't the players already agreed to come down to a 50/50 split? Seems fair. The league wants a lot more though and the fans, more so than in 2004, are on the side of the owners even though they were lied to when they were assured by Bettman that this would be the CBA that "solve all the problems!" Now here we are again.

This lockout is about the owners deciding that they've given the employees too large of a slice of the pie, and they want it back.
The players are a product that costs more to produce that what it can be sold for.

If a product costs more to produce that what it can be sold for, the owner will either cut the cost of production or fold.

it's that simple.

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11-17-2012, 12:23 PM
  #19
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Why are they going to negotiate next week if both sides have nothing new to offer...

This is such a circus.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:24 PM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Going from 57% to 50% is a 12.3% reduction. It's not 7% out of 100 that they're cutting. It's 7% of 57. Just niggling.
But the actual drop in this years dollars would have been around 7.89% given 5% growth. That ship has sailed now.

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11-17-2012, 12:26 PM
  #21
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Originally Posted by rpontbriand View Post
At the end of the day, we the fan, have a voice but refuse to use it. Don't go to games when this train wreck comes back. I don't plan on watching games for the rest of the year or purchase any NHL merchandise. I also will NOT attend a NHL game until the owners grow a pair and get a new commish.

Don't want to get into the players/Fehr fault vs. the owners and Count Chocula. At the end of the day it's Bettman's job to run the league. Buck stops with him.

I know that its hard for the diehards to do this but this is the ONLY way our voice can be heard.
That seems to be a bit contradictory.


HLwiki ‏@NHLwiki
#NHL #CBA #NHLPA -- B.Daly tells Denver Post's Adrian Dater that NHL & PA have resumed informal talks. Believes neg. resume in early week.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashville View Post
This get posted already? Good news to me.
Great news.it seems like the threatened 2 week moratorium on talks concentrated some minds and got things moving.

Don't get our hopes up for nothing this time, please. No more late to meetings , long breaks for drinks etc. Some real negotiating this time..

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:28 PM
  #22
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Argh... I've seen this argued both ways throughout this entire lockout, and it's really obnoxious. It's a case where the math is being manipulated to look as good/bad as the writer wants it to.

It's 7% reduction of the entirety of HRR.
It's a 12.3% reduction of what players are currently getting.

Both are equally accurate.
12.3% is misleading because it's using last years numbers. Had the players agreed to 50/50 in the summer and there was no lockout for fans to be pissed about, there would have been growth to HRR that would make the pay cut much less than 12.3%.

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11-17-2012, 12:29 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
The players are a product that costs more to produce that what it can be sold for.

If a product costs more to produce that what it can be sold for, the owner will either cut the cost of production or fold.

it's that simple.
This is not true for some teams, and I think the books would look very, very different if all TRUE hockey related income and expenses were included in the owners' computations, but they are not because our tax law allows for them not to. I find the claims of the owners that they are losing all this money very dubious for this reason: there is no way any of them would own a hockey "business" for such a long period of time if they were losing money hand over fist. If this were truly the case and over such a long period of time, then all of these owners would be OUT of business because they are dumb, pure and simple.

Like all billionaires, the hockey team is part of a much larger portfolio of assets, and none of these owners would be owning hockey teams if it was not beneficial to it.

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Old
11-17-2012, 12:30 PM
  #24
Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post

HLwiki ‏@NHLwiki
#NHL #CBA #NHLPA -- B.Daly tells Denver Post's Adrian Dater that NHL & PA have resumed informal talks. Believes neg. resume in early week.

Yeah - I'd say Mission O'complished. Well, for now it's a small accomplish but anything can feed the hopefulness right? Bettman threw something out there and the other side bit. Both had good reasons to do so and maybe now they can reach a deal.


Last edited by Mike Jones: 11-17-2012 at 12:36 PM.
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Old
11-17-2012, 12:31 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
12.3% is misleading because it's using last years numbers. Had the players agreed to 50/50 in the summer and there was no lockout for fans to be pissed about, there would have been growth to HRR that would make the pay cut much less than 12.3%.
Can't argue that. However, I think that's going further into the economics than the vast majority of fans and discussions on the topic are (sadly enough).

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