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NHL Lockout Discussion: Despite All My Rage I Am Still Just A Rat In A Cage

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:30 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by fasterthanlight View Post
Relative geography for the win.
Denver and Phoenix aren't really the south, either.
I see the point about less successful markets, but geographical arguments aren't really going to get you anywhere here.

Can we drop the puck yet? urgh.
My original reponse was in relation to the statement that "Bettman was commish for what maybe 3 of the new expansions and even then he wasn't even commish for when the vote went through to allow them into the league" and really had nothing to do with the location of the franchises. While Bettman's been commissioner there's been 4 expansions and 5 relocations, including Atlanta to Winnipeg.

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11-18-2012, 04:30 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by Doakes View Post
NHL Lockout in NY,BOS,PHI,CHI,DET
Im curious how the lockout is being taken in a few large US markets.

NY, BOS, PHI, CHI, DET, and maybe StL. All but StL are large markets with teams in every sport. In DC the lockout gets some coverage but life goes on. In PIT it is missed being a mid market with no pro winter team.

But I'm curious in these large traditional markets that support hockey how it goes there. Is hockey missed by the masses? Has there been much coverage and attention? Or has baseball, football pro and college, and basketball made it not a big deal?
Depends on where you are in NY. Interest in hockey has grown plenty around in the city, LI and Westchester buy most of the suburbs could care less. I have plenty of friends and family who are diehard fans and really care and I also have others who couldn't give two *****. Media coverage has been minimal on most stations, they usually bring it up when their is a meeting or talks have broken off, but not with a great deal of detail.

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11-18-2012, 04:40 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Identity404 View Post
Your argument is pretty weak for Carolina if you are going to use those Forbes numbers. I think Bettman has a whole lot more to worry about in that case as all of these teams lost more money that year according to Forbes:

Winnipeg Jets -5.2
Buffalo Sabres -5.6
Minnesota Wild -5.9
New Jersey Devils -6.1
Florida Panthers -7
Nashville Predators -7.5
Washington Capitals -7.5
San Hose Sharks -7.8
New York Islanders -8.1
Anaheim Ducks -8.4
Tampa Bay Lightning -8.5
Columbus Blue Jackets -13.7
Phoenix Coyotes -24.4

I think it would only be fair to add the Winnipeg Jets, Minnesota Wild, Columbus Blue Jackets and Nashville Predatirs to failed teams added under Bettmans Watch
Who are these Predatirs about which you speak?

I think it's funny how people still want to write off teams as "failed" when they are clearly showing strides in the right direction.

Also, as someone pointed out, Minnesota isn't a failed team. Leipold might be a terrible businessman, but he hasn't destroyed that franchise. I'm hoping he doesn't.

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11-18-2012, 04:40 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by MacTruck View Post
Depends on where you are in NY. Interest in hockey has grown plenty around in the city, LI and Westchester buy most of the suburbs could care less. I have plenty of friends and family who are diehard fans and really care and I also have others who couldn't give two *****. Media coverage has been minimal on most stations, they usually bring it up when their is a meeting or talks have broken off, but not with a great deal of detail.
which again is why I feel there won't be massive fan loss, not at this early point of the lockout....

Hockey does not ramp up until christmas, then a little more after new years (thanks to the winter classic, and the beginning of the year), and then finally after the superbowl has occurred. THAT is when hockey's biggest market appears...

There are minimal losses, in my opinion, given most people are busy with other sports at this point... Right now, the situation is only affecting us die hard fans... and honestly, if you need hockey that bad, go get a girlfriend/wife, and if you have one, spend some more time with her.

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11-18-2012, 04:42 PM
  #430
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Every time there are reports of some players and ex players calling for an agreement there are a burst of stories from various friends of the PA about the owners group being about to fracture.

Latest from LarryBrooks:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...E93owdlNyiostL

You have to get a kick out of this:

according to one trustworthy individual who attended the negotiating session in New York on Nov. 9, Calgary owner Murray Edwards was at one point silenced by Bettman just a moment after Jacobs leaned over and whispered into the commissioner’s ear.

Hard to beat for silly hearsay gossip about-who knows what? What was the mysterious whisper about? What was the Calgary owner about to say? What a load of baloney. Its the same as Fehrs complaint earlier about something that someone said that Bettman said while he was out of the room-resembling nothing so much as high school gossip/hearsay.

This is interesting as well. Fehr raising the possibility of desertification as an option which,since it was leaked to Brooks means that it is meant to be a warning to the owners.

But more revealing is the way the 3 options were termed:

We’re told Don and Steve Fehr outlined three options for the players in the face of the NHL’s ongoing militancy as follows, and in no particular order: 1) Decertification; 2) Capitulation; 3) Continued negotiations in an attempt to end the owners’ lockout.

Sources report that few players expressed interest in opening Doors 1 or 2. Rather, an overwhelming number of players on the call directed union leadership to continue on the path through Door No. 3.


I supposed that item 2-capitulation -was meant to silence anyone pushing for an agreement as soon as possible. Also notice the framing about "in the face of the NHL's"militancy". This goes a long way to confirm what the league has been saying about the Fehr's-not that they are bad communicaters or don't keep in touch with the players, but rather that they frame everything in such a negative way as to force the players to go along with them

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:51 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
Every time there are reports of some players and ex players calling for an agreement there are a burst of stories from various friends of the PA about the owners group being about to fracture.

Latest from LarryBrooks:

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_...E93owdlNyiostL

You have to get a kick out of this:

according to one trustworthy individual who attended the negotiating session in New York on Nov. 9, Calgary owner Murray Edwards was at one point silenced by Bettman just a moment after Jacobs leaned over and whispered into the commissioner’s ear.

Hard to beat for silly hearsay gossip about-who knows what? What was the mysterious whisper about? What was the Calgary owner about to say? What a load of baloney. Its the same as Fehrs complaint earlier about something that someone said that Bettman said while he was out of the room-resembling nothing so much as high school gossip/hearsay.

This is interesting as well. Fehr raising the possibility of desertification as an option which,since it was leaked to Brooks means that it is meant to be a warning to the owners.

But more revealing is the way the 3 options were termed:

We’re told Don and Steve Fehr outlined three options for the players in the face of the NHL’s ongoing militancy as follows, and in no particular order: 1) Decertification; 2) Capitulation; 3) Continued negotiations in an attempt to end the owners’ lockout.

Sources report that few players expressed interest in opening Doors 1 or 2. Rather, an overwhelming number of players on the call directed union leadership to continue on the path through Door No. 3.


I supposed that item 2-capitulation -was meant to silence anyone pushing for an agreement as soon as possible. Also notice the framing about "in the face of the NHL's"militancy". This goes a long way to confirm what the league has been saying about the Fehr's-not that they are bad communicaters or don't keep in touch with the players, but rather that they frame everything in such a negative way as to force the players to go along with them
It was Bettman interceding in the shouting match.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/sp...alks.html?_r=0
Quote:
Reports emerged Friday of a shouting match between players and owners at the end of that day’s meeting. But the delegate said the exchange was “extremely brief” and stood out only because of its rarity.

The exchange was between the free-agent defenseman Chris Campoli and Winnipeg defenseman Ron Hainsey on one side, and the owners Murray Edwards of Calgary and Craig Leipold of Minnesota on the other.

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:56 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by azaloum90 View Post
which again is why I feel there won't be massive fan loss, not at this early point of the lockout....

Hockey does not ramp up until christmas, then a little more after new years (thanks to the winter classic, and the beginning of the year), and then finally after the superbowl has occurred. THAT is when hockey's biggest market appears...

There are minimal losses, in my opinion, given most people are busy with other sports at this point... Right now, the situation is only affecting us die hard fans... and honestly, if you need hockey that bad, go get a girlfriend/wife, and if you have one, spend some more time with her.
Just crazy talk. We need hockey now, more than ever.

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:58 PM
  #433
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Saying owners lockout is a fact. If the players were to strike, it would be the players strike.

Facts are facts.
And what do you suppose happened had they not.

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Old
11-18-2012, 04:58 PM
  #434
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What does it matter what I want. I am only saying what I would do if I was Fehr.
And if you were Fehr, you would be laughed out of the room.

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11-18-2012, 05:01 PM
  #435
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Who are these Predatirs about which you speak?

I think it's funny how people still want to write off teams as "failed" when they are clearly showing strides in the right direction.

Also, as someone pointed out, Minnesota isn't a failed team. Leipold might be a terrible businessman, but he hasn't destroyed that franchise. I'm hoping he doesn't.
I dont think Nashville is a failure either. I am a STH for the Wild I cant speak for other teams, But the Wild have lost money for several years, this while selling out every game in Franchise history up until 2 years ago and at the time I believe the Wild were top 5 or 6 in avg ticket price that right there should show you they need to fix the economics of the league.

People also get on Leipold for crying poor then going out and signing Parise and Suter for nearly 200 million dollars, well if the Wild are losing money each year and the fans are becoming less interested and STH decline after 4 years of non playoffs, what choice did Leipold have? He had to sign Parise and Suter and he had to sign them for what he did. If he doesnt people are not interested in the Wild and he loses even more money this year because people arent showing up buying jerseys etc.

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Old
11-18-2012, 05:02 PM
  #436
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Are you referring to the Philadelphia Daily News article from yesterday? The one that states they've been kicking around the idea of hiring former President Clinton as a mediator? Because if you are, Snider has issued a statement disputing it.
Of course Snider is going to deny it.

But that doesn't mean it's wrong. I doubt a sports reporter is going to risk his career by making something up

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11-18-2012, 05:05 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Tra La La View Post
It was Bettman interceding in the shouting match.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/sp...alks.html?_r=0
Yes, you're right thats probably what it is. Yet it is stuck in the Brooks article without context as proof that Jacobs and Bettman are bullying other owners.

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11-18-2012, 05:08 PM
  #438
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And what do you suppose happened had they not.
I don't pretend to know.
Maybe the PA would have gone on strike. Or maybe they would have been perfectly happy with the exisiting agreement.

Not sure.

I know the BOH board accepts as fact the idea that Fehr would have forced a strike. But the BOH board is vehemently anti-player and, therefore, the echo chamber in there has allowed for pretty silly ideas to gain momentum.

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11-18-2012, 05:10 PM
  #439
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And if you were Fehr, you would be laughed out of the room.
Try to be civil.

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11-18-2012, 05:11 PM
  #440
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Of course Snider is going to deny it.

But that doesn't mean it's wrong. I doubt a sports reporter is going to risk his career by making something up
Well then, I guess then it comes down to if you chose to believe 'unnamed sources' or an official statement from them man himself. As far as risking his career ... really? He can always hide behind the fact that he didn't name them, or that they turned out to not be credible. Happens all the time. And in the meantime, it sells papers, generates hits ... that's why that caliber of journalism flourishes.

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11-18-2012, 05:11 PM
  #441
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Not really. I posted a poll on the BOH board back in September/October...
85 percent of the posters agreed....

it was something like: Should the owners accept a PA proposal that gradually brings the HRR to 50/50 if the owners guarantee a soft landing?

85 percent of people who voted supported the poll, even on the very pro-owner BOH board.

Since then, as the owners have become more militant, so too have the pro-owner supporters, and most probably wouldn't even admit they supported that idea... because it shows how shallow their opinion has become now.
I am very pro owner but I would support a soft-landing similar to what you hint at... sadly that has never, not even close, been proposed by the NHLPA....

EDIT:

I'd also like answers to Daly's questions to the PA:
Quote:
In an email to the Star Tribune, Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly said: "I find it incredible that the Union is suggesting that we are somehow "close" to a deal. They have utterly refused to negotiate for months. They have made essentially one proposal -- five times. They continue to request a "guaranteed" Players Share as part of the next agreement and we repeatedly tell them maybe they should get a reality check. And in the mean time, maybe they can make their position clear to us on 50-50, on the make-whole and on Player Contracting issues."
Because, thus far, the NHLPA has given nothing concrete on any of those issues.


Last edited by LickTheEnvelope: 11-18-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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11-18-2012, 05:16 PM
  #442
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I don't pretend to know.
Maybe the PA would have gone on strike. Or maybe they would have been perfectly happy with the exisiting agreement.

Not sure.

I know the BOH board accepts as fact the idea that Fehr would have forced a strike. But the BOH board is vehemently anti-player and, therefore, the echo chamber in there has allowed for pretty silly ideas to gain momentum.
It has been spelled out from the players side, "they would gladly play under the old CBA while this gets worked out."

They would still be getting 57% of the revenue share, 'what's their motivation to get it done?'

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11-18-2012, 05:21 PM
  #443
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Well then, I guess then it comes down to if you chose to believe 'unnamed sources' or an official statement from them man himself. As far as risking his career ... really? He can always hide behind the fact that he didn't name them, or that they turned out to not be credible. Happens all the time. And in the meantime, it sells papers, generates hits ... that's why that caliber of journalism flourishes.
I don't BELIEVE one thing or the other.

I accept that since it was reported, the possibility exists. I also accept, since Snider denied it, it could be erroneous.
I also accept that, because Snider doesn't want to get fined, he might publicly deny it.

I take it since you framed it that I must believe one or the other, that you believe Snider?

What makes you CERTAIN? Other than the side you support?

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11-18-2012, 05:27 PM
  #444
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It has been spelled out from the players side, "they would gladly play under the old CBA while this gets worked out."

They would still be getting 57% of the revenue share, 'what's their motivation to get it done?'
They might say that. But maybe Fehr would advise them to strike in April... fearing an owners' lockout the next year, and realizing that's when the players' have most clout.

It's my opinion that the players are being genuine when they say they wouldn't strike and would play under the existing CBA. But who knows?

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11-18-2012, 05:28 PM
  #445
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I don't BELIEVE one thing or the other.

I accept that since it was reported, the possibility exists. I also accept, since Snider denied it, it could be erroneous.
I also accept that, because Snider doesn't want to get fined, he might publicly deny it.

I take it since you framed it that I must believe one or the other, that you believe Snider?

What makes you CERTAIN? Other than the side you support?
Just to touch on the bolded part, I believe fines are handed out when comments are made directly by any NHL member. I could be wrong but the fines I've heard of were due to direct comments. I've read a number of articles that single out owners and used unidentified sources to suggest where an owner stands on these negotiations and I haven't heard about fines because of those.

I do agree with the sentiment that the existence of the article means that there can be some merit to it, the denial by Snider might mean that there is no merit to it. Snider's denial may just be for show, however, either way, I don't think Snider would be fined given how this information was released.

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11-18-2012, 05:32 PM
  #446
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I am very pro owner but I would support a soft-landing similar to what you hint at... sadly that has never, not even close, been proposed by the NHLPA....
No. But it was something I think the PA would have agreed to IF the owners wouldn't have started with their ridiculous offer.

What if the Owners started at 50-50.

Before a single game was lost, we could have seen a deal like 56-54-52-50-50 ... with some provisions in there that the phase in might be slower if revenue didn't rise by a certain percentage, or something.

It's clear to me that what Fehr was moving to 50-50, but that he wouldn't accept less money, aggregate, than the players currently receive.

And it's clear to me that the owners are not in favor of any deal that does not immediately reduce costs.

So a soft landing was not in the cards, due to owners' demands.

Once games were removed from the schedule, it became harder to come to an agreement without delinking.

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11-18-2012, 05:38 PM
  #447
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They might say that. But maybe Fehr would advise them to strike in April... fearing an owners' lockout the next year, and realizing that's when the players' have most clout.

It's my opinion that the players are being genuine when they say they wouldn't strike and would play under the existing CBA. But who knows?


It doesnt matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether they are being genuine or not. Sure they may not strike, but they wont' negotiate. There's no incentive they would be playing under the CBA they currently want.


It's really not hard to understand that this 'we just wanna play crap' is just a bunch of bull ****.

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11-18-2012, 05:39 PM
  #448
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Of course Snider is going to deny it.

But that doesn't mean it's wrong. I doubt a sports reporter is going to risk his career by making something up
Ever heard of Al Strachan? It was getting to the point that the panel on the hotstove was laughing and smirking when he would have a "lead"

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11-18-2012, 05:40 PM
  #449
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... the vast majority of fans are pro owner ...
What is this based on?

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11-18-2012, 05:41 PM
  #450
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It doesnt matter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether they are being genuine or not. Sure they may not strike, but they wont' negotiate. There's no incentive they would be playing under the CBA they currently want.


It's really not hard to understand that this 'we just wanna play crap' is just a bunch of bull ****.
They've done their share of negotiating by offering a path to 50 percent. But they're not giving up anything in the near term. That's where they draw the line.

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