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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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Old
02-01-2013, 11:56 AM
  #276
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Oh ffs, dig you even watch the games or are you just trolling? Every one could see that the home team was nothing but a bunch of individuals, there was not even a semblance of team play. The fact that the coach was unable to contain the players speaks of his ineptitude. Different story in 2008 and last year when the big stars played for the team. Surely you don't suggest that Russia should play next year with only KHL players???

As for Finnish hockey journalist, they tend have a better understanding of Finnish hockey than Russian posters on internet message boards.

You seem to have a "slight" pro-Russia/KHL attitude towards your post which makes this discussion quite fruitless. No matter how much facts you're supplied with you refuse to change your stance.
In response to your allegations of trolling, I will make this my last post on the subject. You had said previously that Finland occasionally does well in international tournaments because of their players from the NHL. I argued that if your theory were correct, Russian performances in World Championships and the Olympic Games would have been far more successful between 1994-2004, when Russians occupied more than 90 NHL roster spots per season, than from 2005-2013, when Russians typically took up 25-35 positions in the NHL. If your theory held any water, my premise would be true. Except for a Silver Medal in the 1998 Olympics, Russian performance was consistently abysmal between 1994-2004. Conversely, Russia has been far more successful between 2005-13.

I asked you to delineate the coaching strategies and methods that prevented great Russian players from having minimal success in international tournaments during the early period, but you made no attempt to back up your argument that it was coaches who handcuffed the brilliant players. Instead, you asserted that the Russians didn't win because they didn't play well as a team. I suppose you could say that any time any team ever loses, it was because they didn't play as well as the other team. That's not a really insightful observation!

You were successful in detecting my pro-Russia/KHL bias. if that is disqualifying for a discussion, then I am out.

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02-01-2013, 01:11 PM
  #277
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More players in NHL does not help your domestic league and developing of hockey in your country. Only high quality of domestic league (and junior league) can help to your country. The best league in Europe is KHL, so yes, finnish KHL teams would help finnish hockey. Of course, you need to make step 2, 3 etc not only join KHL.

Debate should be about advetages - what is better for finnish/euro clubs? To got funny money for best players from NHL clubs? Or more moeny from NHL club for the same players? If someone does not get this agrument, I can say only one thing - pls, dont ruine your hockey.


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02-01-2013, 08:08 PM
  #278
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Take your arguing to PM. You aren't going to do it in the forums.

Thanks

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02-01-2013, 08:22 PM
  #279
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I was determined to cut this off, but then you had to come out with your flaming and trolling! Blowhard (sic) drivel! Fetisov, Yakushev and Bilyaletdinov were every bit as good as coaches as the group after 2006. As for Finnish players, they will happily flock to the KHL if they are lucky enough to be invited. There are too few Finnish players who are good enough to hold down jobs in the NHL. If they have a choice between the KHL and the almost beer-league in Finland, its a no-brainer, isn't it?
Well look who's trolling now... Well, Ilari Filppula and Ossi Väänänen certainly chose to SM-Liiga over KHL, by signing long term contracts with Jokerit, with no KHL clauses (to my knowledge). Of clourse players choose to paly where the money is, it's a no brainer. But for some Finnish players, those with families will choose SM-liiga over KHL.

Fetisov a good coach? Bilyaletdinov wasn't the head coach until last year(for what it's worth, I count him among the few Europeans that could be a head coach in NHL). If Yakushev was such a good coach, why did Russia finish out of the medals during his two year term? They also didn't have all their biggest NHL stars during that era available(apart from 2000 of course) as most of them were playing in the playoffs or injured/in contract negotiations.

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02-02-2013, 01:01 AM
  #280
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Not to mention, did you ever think it could be the players, and not where they play that's the problem, cause it's certainly not always where they are playing, it's that they aren't good enough to hack it in North America, it's where players come to get found out.

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02-02-2013, 05:17 AM
  #281
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Bilyaletdinov wasn't the head coach until last year(for what it's worth, I count him among the few Europeans that could be a head coach in NHL).
Bil coached at that exhibition tournament in 2004.

I think everyone just needs a break, lock this thread until the end of the season or something, same arguments from everyone and everyone has their own agenda. It is actually becoming childish and turning into the NHL section of hfboards. This section (Jussi included) has such good posters who turn into other people when posting in this thread

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02-02-2013, 06:35 AM
  #282
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Bil coached at that exhibition tournament in 2004.

I think everyone just needs a break, lock this thread until the end of the season or something, same arguments from everyone and everyone has their own agenda. It is actually becoming childish and turning into the NHL section of hfboards. This section (Jussi included) has such good posters who turn into other people when posting in this thread
I only had a list of coaches for Worlds and Olympics. Though he messed up on the number of Russians in the NHL in the 90's. Average was about 50 players, with a peak of 69 in 2000 and not nearly every one was a star player.

Like I said, I was on topic until someone somehow turned this into a Finland-KHL debate which, though futile, belongs in a another thread. This thread probably should be locked up since people have a hard time understanding the fact KIDS choose to take different development routes by their own choice depending on their individual situation.

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02-02-2013, 02:21 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
In response to your allegations of trolling, I will make this my last post on the subject. You had said previously that Finland occasionally does well in international tournaments because of their players from the NHL. I argued that if your theory were correct, Russian performances in World Championships and the Olympic Games would have been far more successful between 1994-2004, when Russians occupied more than 90 NHL roster spots per season, than from 2005-2013, when Russians typically took up 25-35 positions in the NHL. If your theory held any water, my premise would be true. Except for a Silver Medal in the 1998 Olympics, Russian performance was consistently abysmal between 1994-2004. Conversely, Russia has been far more successful between 2005-13.
The problem is these "correlations" are incredibly loose. There are any number of variables that may have attributed to these results. Simply stating numbers of NHL players and looking at results and doing the same with the KHL is meaningless, because you have not attempted to understand this "correlation". Until you understand this, one cannot possibly think it is wise to structure an argument around it.

It isn't like the correlation between youngsters leaving early for the CHL/failing relative to those who stayed, because the fundamental evidence is much stronger and can be explained.

Those barren years can be attributed to many factors. Bad team player, specific players not caring, bad coaching, bad luck etc etc etc. Unless you're willing to do a deep study on the "correlation" it is useless.

I asked you to delineate the coaching strategies and methods that prevented great Russian players from having minimal success in international tournaments during the early period, but you made no attempt to back up your argument that it was coaches who handcuffed the brilliant players. Instead, you asserted that the Russians didn't win because they didn't play well as a team. I suppose you could say that any time any team ever loses, it was because they didn't play as well as the other team. That's not a really insightful observation!

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02-02-2013, 02:32 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
More players in NHL does not help your domestic league and developing of hockey in your country. Only high quality of domestic league (and junior league) can help to your country. The best league in Europe is KHL, so yes, finnish KHL teams would help finnish hockey. Of course, you need to make step 2, 3 etc not only join KHL.

Debate should be about advetages - what is better for finnish/euro clubs? To got funny money for best players from NHL clubs? Or more moeny from NHL club for the same players? If someone does not get this agrument, I can say only one thing - pls, dont ruine your hockey.
More players in the NHL implies that your development system is better than if don't have that many NHL players. Less so for Russia than other nations of course.

Secondly, prove that the KHL is good for Finnish hockey. Some of you are so blinded with expansionist dreams that you neglect reasoning and logic and simply think "How could these nations not propser with Russian help!".

The distribution of available talent is clearly dictated by the market. Where the money is, the better players are. The NHL thus is at the top of the market. Sweden and Finland will never be able to compete with domestic leagues. Not in any global sport. We can all agree on this. However, the notion that they therefore must cut their elite rich clubs from the rest and stick them in Russia is nonsense. Why would Swedish people like the KHL anymore than the NHL. It's the same principle, but this time the KHL is top dog rather than the NHL. Sweden still doesn't have a strong domestic league. And a couple of teams in the KHL won't appeal to all Swedes, and it will hinder development of youth in markets where KHL teams don't exist. You affectively convulute the feeder system even more.

Sweden is showing currently that you don't need a dominant domestic league to produce world class talent. So if the current situation is working incredibly well for Sweden, where is the motive to destroy all that, and feed the KHL rather than the NHL? Please tell me Vorky, rather than the usual inane rhetoric, because you never give actual answers. Rhetoric. All it is.

Think one mistake Finland made was removing relegation. A tiered system promotes iniative and development at lowers levels because incentive is there. Available mobility is important. That combined with bad decisions at the youth level has hurt them alot. The NHL isn't really the problem. A"NHL" will always be there for Finland. There will always be a more powerful richer structure that will lure their players away. It is inevitable, thus rather than trying to solve that situation, concentrate on improving your own attainable problems.

And the notion that Finland can simply say to the NHL "2 million for this player" is hysterical. Finland can't dictate the market.

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02-02-2013, 03:06 PM
  #285
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I dont usually react to BS statement,I dont care about swedish club in KHL.

you did not anwer this
Quote:
Debate should be about advetages - what is better for finnish/euro clubs? To got funny money for best players from NHL clubs? Or more moeny from NHL club for the same players? If someone does not get this agrument, I can say only one thing - pls, dont ruine your hockey.


Last edited by vorky: 02-02-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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02-02-2013, 04:15 PM
  #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
J17 Vs Proclamation
Debate should be about advetages - what is better for finnish/euro clubs? To got funny money for best players from NHL clubs? Or more moeny from NHL club for the same players? If someone does not get this agrument, I can say only one thing - pls, dont ruine your hockey.
Unfortunately, my nation cannot ruin it's hockey.

It's a very romantic idea, but the NHL is the one who dictates that. The transfer agreement has been stopped in protest and didn't work. The NHL isn't going to pay 2 Million. Unless you can think of why a reason why they will?

Finland and Sweden will always have second tier domestic leagues. The market dictates this. If hockey ever does gain global development traction, those leagues will actually become worse. The quality of their leagues is entirely dependant on the quality of the depth talent they produce via their development systems.

The ironic thing is, the very thing you moan about the NHL is the very thing you wish the KHL to do. Dilute their domesitc leagues and turn it into a feeder league primarily for you, whilst you take the select elite teams and have them play in the KHL. It's no different to what the NHL does now, simply, it is formatted and wrapped up in a slightly different context. Hypocrisy itself is fine, but if you aren't aware of the hypocrisy, that is a different matter ...

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02-02-2013, 04:25 PM
  #287
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The transfer agreement has been stopped in protest and didn't work.
stopped for how many years? 2, 3 or 4? It is not enough, even 10 years is not enough to make results as you want to achieve.
Btw,when was it? Before KHL strated its innaugural season? If the answer is yes, I say you this - now is another situation, now has europe (KHL) more power to achieve better conditions with NHL. But, Swedes/Finns etc must cooperate with KHL.

Quote:
It's no different to what the NHL does now
If I get it, I say NO - there is a different - if your nation has KHL team, the KHL becomes league of your nation as well. It does not work with NHL and never will.

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02-02-2013, 04:48 PM
  #288
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stopped for how many years? 2, 3 or 4? It is not enough, even 10 years is not enough to make results as you want to achieve.

Btw,when was it? Before KHL strated its innaugural season? If the answer is yes, I say you this - now is another situation, now has europe (KHL) more power to achieve better conditions with NHL. But, Swedes/Finns etc must cooperate with KHL.
You have failed to explain why the NHL would significantly increase the transfer price. 10 years of nothing is alot worse than a few years of something. The KHL is in a position to ignore an agreement ; other nations are not.


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If I get it, I say NO - there is a different - if your nation has KHL team, the KHL becomes league of your nation as well. It does not work with NHL and never will.
The KHL remains a Russian league with a few teams from your nation in it. The majority won't have any real affliation with it, given their teams won't be in it. The fundamental issue however, is what is the impact on those left behind? What happens with teams such as Brynas or Assat? It is somewhat impossible to know, but personally i believe the impact would be negative.

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02-02-2013, 05:03 PM
  #289
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NHL wants best Euros, so if euro leagues insisted on increasing the transfer price, NHL would agree. Dont worry, it works like this.

Quote:
The KHL is in a position to ignore an agreement ; other nations are not.
I dont agree with bold part.

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02-02-2013, 06:22 PM
  #290
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NHL wants best Euros, so if euro leagues insisted on increasing the transfer price, NHL would agree. Dont worry, it works like this.


I dont agree with bold part.
you've yet to make any argument for why the NHL has to respect anything. Finnish or Swedish superstar comes along, has no contract in SEL or SM Liga, he flies to NA and signs, what stops him?

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02-02-2013, 06:53 PM
  #291
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you've yet to make any argument for why the NHL has to respect anything. Finnish or Swedish superstar comes along, has no contract in SEL or SM Liga, he flies to NA and signs, what stops him?
sign multiyear deal with finnish club at the age of 17 without out clause. If he wants to leave to NHL, finnish club will ask for milion USD or so.

Just one solution of course

Yes, it is not real today when swedes/finns gave up and are under NHL control. Thats the problem. Finnish and swedish federation dont protect interests of finnish/swedish clubs.

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02-02-2013, 07:38 PM
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sign multiyear deal with finnish club at the age of 17 without out clause. If he wants to leave to NHL, finnish club will ask for milion USD or so.

Just one solution of course

Yes, it is not real today when swedes/finns gave up and are under NHL control. Thats the problem. Finnish and swedish federation dont protect interests of finnish/swedish clubs.
why would they sign those deals though? I understand the Russian strategy but I don't see how that actually is beneficial for a league as financially limited as the SM Liga

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02-02-2013, 07:45 PM
  #293
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why would they sign those deals though? I understand the Russian strategy but I don't see how that actually is beneficial for a league as financially limited as the SM Liga
if euro clubs/leagues (SM-League, Elitserien) wants more money from NHL clubs, they must make pressure on NHL. Therefore must act like KHL (no transfer deal with NHL, deal only if NHL offers more money) and yes, it hurts clubs/league. On the other hand, it is only way how to get more money from NHL.

If finns have KHL team, it means cca 30 players under KHL protection. If they join MHL, it means another kids.

Lev Prague, KHL club, paid to czech clubs for czech players who was with and without contract with czech clubs. If they are with, paycheck is bigger. Nice, finnish KHL club can do the same - more money in SM-Liiga.


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02-02-2013, 10:11 PM
  #294
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you've yet to make any argument for why the NHL has to respect anything. Finnish or Swedish superstar comes along, has no contract in SEL or SM Liga, he flies to NA and signs, what stops him?
I think vorky's too young to remember but the European federations tried to negotiate that price higher years ago, possibly already in the 90's but the current price was as much they could get. The owners felt they could simply wait for the players contracts to run out and sign them for free BUT they also felt the European clubs need to compensated in some way. I vividly remember Finnish hockey fed boss and IIHF vice...something Kalervo Kummola saying this during an intermission interview at some World Championships. Also his claim of "pressuring the NHL " are laughworthy. Pressure with what? Europeans don't have anything to pressure with, it's like I've said a million times, the players hold the cards.

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why would they sign those deals though? I understand the Russian strategy but I don't see how that actually is beneficial for a league as financially limited as the SM Liga
Such a deal would also be impossible in Finland due to the power of the agents, the SM-Liiga players association (which is much more powerful than the neutered KHL one), not to mention the clubs reluctance to do so (in fear of player signing elsewhere). The clubs are "content" with the money receive, they accept the realism of the situation and also don't want to anger the player should he someday return to Finland.

One more thing, a Finnish junior team in the MHL would be impossible because the Finnish junior leagues work in collaboration with schools. The league schedules are designed to interfere the least as possible with schools schedules. Such would be impossible with MHL due to the intensive travel. Not to mention that costs would go through the roof compared to previous arrangement.


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02-02-2013, 10:20 PM
  #295
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you wrote about 90's , irrelevant today.

it is problem of Finland if agents have more power than clubs.

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02-02-2013, 10:38 PM
  #296
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I believe the Swedish PA is also not "stupid" to allow any measures to prevent player movement. In the Nordic countries we also have national and EU labor laws which the clubs will have to abide with. Players under 18 can't be signed to long term contracts in Finland purely on that IIRC.

Edit: long term contracts are rare in Finland anyway. Players want to sign short term 1-3 year contracts. Filppula's and Väänänen's contracts are the exceptions and neither player has expressed desire in playing in the KH which is why they don't have KHL clauses. Clubs are unwilling to sign junior players to long term contracts even if the player wanted to.


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02-02-2013, 11:09 PM
  #297
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not true

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02-03-2013, 04:30 AM
  #298
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Vorky, Sweden has already tried to stop it's players going to the CHL via similar tactics. All it threatened to do is push more young players to the CHL.

The NHL is the dream for nearly all young players. Thus, they will make decisions that help them chieve that goal, rightly or wrongly.

European clubs are simply in no position to force the NHL to increase compensation. If they were, it would have happened by now.

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02-03-2013, 10:00 AM
  #299
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In case it also hasn't been mentioned yet or people have forgotten it, the new CBA allows teams to hold on to their draft picks rights for 4 years which means they are no longer in a rush to sign the and can let them develop without rushing them. The Finnish and Swedish clubs especially liked that one.

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02-03-2013, 11:03 AM
  #300
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The problem is these "correlations" are incredibly loose. There are any number of variables that may have attributed to these results. Simply stating numbers of NHL players and looking at results and doing the same with the KHL is meaningless, because you have not attempted to understand this "correlation". Until you understand this, one cannot possibly think it is wise to structure an argument around it.

It isn't like the correlation between youngsters leaving early for the CHL/failing relative to those who stayed, because the fundamental evidence is much stronger and can be explained.

Those barren years can be attributed to many factors. Bad team player, specific players not caring, bad coaching, bad luck etc etc etc. Unless you're willing to do a deep study on the "correlation" it is useless.

I asked you to delineate the coaching strategies and methods that prevented great Russian players from having minimal success in international tournaments during the early period, but you made no attempt to back up your argument that it was coaches who handcuffed the brilliant players. Instead, you asserted that the Russians didn't win because they didn't play well as a team. I suppose you could say that any time any team ever loses, it was because they didn't play as well as the other team. That's not a really insightful observation!
Deep and intensive study and analysis wasn't required. I wasn't trying to establish a correlation, but instead debunk an alleged correlation between the number of NHL players on a national team and the quality of the team. From 1994 to 2004, Russia fielded national teams that were about 95% NHL regulars, many of them stars, with dismal results, except in Nagano. I used the 2000 WC in St. Petersburg as a case in point. With an NHL all-star lineup in front of a home crowd, Russia finished 11th. From roughly 2006 to the present, Russia has fielded teams that included substantial numbers of RSL and later KHL players, with far greater relative success. Could other factors have impacted on those results? Of course. Nothing in life seems to be a simple matter of raw numbers.

I don't share the view that everybody who holds a job in the NHL is an outstanding player. All told, the NHL has about 750 jobs to fill in. There are probably about 10 to 12 players in the NHL who could genuinely be described as superstars, with maybe another 40 who are legitimate stars. The remaining 700 are highly replaceable when a real talent comes along. They are just filling in the lineup for as long as they can hang on to their job. I also believe that playing in the NHL offers a relatively limited opportunity to really develop and build on skills. There's no time because of the excessive number of games, and there is limited opportunity because of the dearth of anything other than "skatearound" practices. I don't give excessive stature to someone who is skating on a 3rd or 4th line in the NHL.

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