Well it certainly isn't the problem in Sweden, their federation put in a lot effort and funding about 10 years ago to develop junior coaching when it comes to player development and they've been reaping the rewards lately. Money isn't that big of a problem in Finland but it's rather the federation's inefficiency to develop junior coaches.
As long as the federation has funding it works, what I'm saying is that it only sustains itself as long as the funding remains, where as the Canadian system, and what the Russians are trying to create is a system where junior hockey sustains itself
It would have been a great system, if most of the kids had remained in Czech system instead of leaving for NA
The North Americans are drying out the source by "stealing" all of their best talents and leave the Czech development leagues in weaker shape.
And about what Slavomir Lehner said,we have a similar point of view here in Norway, although in a much smaller scale according to number of players of course.
Norwegian coaches want Norwegian players to stay in Norway or Sweden until they are finish their development, at 20-23 years old, and ready for NHL action. Or else there is a big chance they become hybrid players.
Espen Knutsen, a former Blue Jackets player, agreed 100 % with Lehner here.
You make an excellent point! It reminds me that one of the biggest factors that killed Russian hockey in the 1990's and early 2000's, aside from the main reason of economic collapse, was the fact that the NHL just sucked all of the hockey assets out of Russia like a giant vacuum cleaner, until there was nothing left but the empty container! I don't blame the NHL for taking advantage of a great business opportunity. The transfer agreement they had in place back then was $250,000 per Russian player to transfer to the NHL! Are you kidding me? Players that they would later pay 5 million a year they got dirt cheap at 250k. And, in the bargain, they succeeded in wiping out (and almost extinguishing) the only realistic opposition the NHL had in the hockey world.
From the '90's and early 2000 era, while Russian pro players would be lucky if they got a peanuts paycheck every 2 or 3 months, NHL rosters had about 90 Russian players every year. Now, with the recovery of Russian hockey, Russian representation is in the high 20's. Its no accident. The sudden, drastic decline in the number of Russian players in the NHL has nothing to do with any miraculous loss of Russian hockey prowess, and everything to do with the fact that Russian players now have some bargaining power. But the move of Czech and other youth players to NA does more than possibly hurt the future careers of the young players - it also takes a huge toll on the resources of the losing country.
As long as the federation has funding it works, what I'm saying is that it only sustains itself as long as the funding remains, where as the Canadian system, and what the Russians are trying to create is a system where junior hockey sustains itself
I don't know if your characterization of the Russian junior system is correct. Right now, MHL A and B teams are primarily owned and operated by their corresponding KHL/VHL sponsoring teams. This is different, I believe, from the CHL, which is an independent entity. Certainly, they would like to develop fan interest to the point where the league became economically self-sustaining, but that will not happen in the next few years, and the sponsorship of parent teams is presumed to be needed for the foreseeable future. Junior hockey doesn't have the same kind of following in Russia as in Canada.
You make an excellent point! It reminds me that one of the biggest factors that killed Russian hockey in the 1990's and early 2000's, aside from the main reason of economic collapse, was the fact that the NHL just sucked all of the hockey assets out of Russia like a giant vacuum cleaner, until there was nothing left but the empty container! I don't blame the NHL for taking advantage of a great business opportunity. The transfer agreement they had in place back then was $250,000 per Russian player to transfer to the NHL! Are you kidding me? Players that they would later pay 5 million a year they got dirt cheap at 250k. And, in the bargain, they succeeded in wiping out (and almost extinguishing) the only realistic opposition the NHL had in the hockey world.
It was the same for every players in every other league as well and still is. And it's not going to change.
You make an excellent point! It reminds me that one of the biggest factors that killed Russian hockey in the 1990's and early 2000's, aside from the main reason of economic collapse, was the fact that the NHL just sucked all of the hockey assets out of Russia like a giant vacuum cleaner, until there was nothing left but the empty container! I don't blame the NHL for taking advantage of a great business opportunity. The transfer agreement they had in place back then was $250,000 per Russian player to transfer to the NHL! Are you kidding me? Players that they would later pay 5 million a year they got dirt cheap at 250k. And, in the bargain, they succeeded in wiping out (and almost extinguishing) the only realistic opposition the NHL had in the hockey world.
From the '90's and early 2000 era, while Russian pro players would be lucky if they got a peanuts paycheck every 2 or 3 months, NHL rosters had about 90 Russian players every year. Now, with the recovery of Russian hockey, Russian representation is in the high 20's. Its no accident. The sudden, drastic decline in the number of Russian players in the NHL has nothing to do with any miraculous loss of Russian hockey prowess, and everything to do with the fact that Russian players now have some bargaining power. But the move of Czech and other youth players to NA does more than possibly hurt the future careers of the young players - it also takes a huge toll on the resources of the losing country.
Thank you Yakushev72, that's exactly what i believed I had read from IIHF and other articles, and it certainly goes for Russian players to.
The hockey world would be a lot healthier if Russia, Czechia and so on will stay as strong forces. We much better of with many big competitors, than just a few strong ones.
The 80's was so great with Krutov-Larionov-Makarov, and Ruzicka, Hrdina and Hasek, Gretzky and Yzerman.
Thank you Yakushev72, that's exactly what i believed I had read from IIHF and other articles, and it certainly goes for Russian players to.
The hockey world would be a lot healthier if Russia, Czechia and so on will stay as strong forces. We much better of with many big competitors, than just a few strong ones.
The 80's was so great with Krutov-Larionov-Makarov, and Ruzicka, Hrdina and Hasek, Gretzky and Yzerman.
not only Russia, Czech rep but Sweden, Switzerland and Finland as well. The last 3 countries are anti-european in hockey nowadays. They support NHL monopoly, just look at transfer agreement with NHL. Why did they accept it? It is not balanced agreement. All euro countries must support KHL´s attitude to NHL... no transfer agreement until conditions are equal. Believe me, if all euro federation would share this point of view, NHL would offer better deal. It is politics, it works like that.
Thank you Yakushev72, that's exactly what i believed I had read from IIHF and other articles, and it certainly goes for Russian players to.
The hockey world would be a lot healthier if Russia, Czechia and so on will stay as strong forces. We much better of with many big competitors, than just a few strong ones.
The 80's was so great with Krutov-Larionov-Makarov, and Ruzicka, Hrdina and Hasek, Gretzky and Yzerman.
While everyone else is not? These things tend to go in cycles, someone always has leaner years.
Thank you Yakushev72, that's exactly what i believed I had read from IIHF and other articles, and it certainly goes for Russian players to.
The hockey world would be a lot healthier if Russia, Czechia and so on will stay as strong forces. We much better of with many big competitors, than just a few strong ones.
The 80's was so great with Krutov-Larionov-Makarov, and Ruzicka, Hrdina and Hasek, Gretzky and Yzerman.
In whatever form, I believe that a powerful European counterpart to the NHL will exist in the not too distant future. There are too many great European hockey players to ship them overseas to NA for peanuts while the home federations fight bankruptcy. Eventually, the ever-growing interest of European fans will be tapped by a league capable of offering salaries and benefits equal to what they can get overseas.
Norway is a wonderful example of a country whose hockey program is beginning to soar, no doubt preparing for the day when you overtake your Swedish and Finnish neighbors. The most difficult victory for Russia in the 2012 WC was in the game against Norway. I couldn't believe how good the Norwegians have become!
It was the same for every players in every other league as well and still is. And it's not going to change.
What you are saying, I think, is that hockey federations such as in Finland are satisfied with the status quo of getting a few peanuts from the NHL to chew on in exchange for preventing the development of a Finnish hockey identity, while at the same time agreeing to keeping Finland from competing with the parent companies, Canada and the US, on the international hockey map. So far, Finland has succeeded in that quest, and a few Finnish officials have pocketed the small cash presented by the NHL.
While everyone else is not? These things tend to go in cycles, someone always has leaner years.
My weak english makes it hard to explain. I wrote "and so on" because I meant several other country's.
It would have bean great if we had 10-15 strong forces who all could win WC or the olympics, instead of the big 4-6 or something. Czech Republic clearly declining ,an that is sad.
I don't totally blame NA for this, but I believe /believed (not sure anymore)that it is a part of the problem.
In whatever form, I believe that a powerful European counterpart to the NHL will exist in the not too distant future. There are too many great European hockey players to ship them overseas to NA for peanuts while the home federations fight bankruptcy. Eventually, the ever-growing interest of European fans will be tapped by a league capable of offering salaries and benefits equal to what they can get overseas.
Norway is a wonderful example of a country whose hockey program is beginning to soar, no doubt preparing for the day when you overtake your Swedish and Finnish neighbors. The most difficult victory for Russia in the 2012 WC was in the game against Norway. I couldn't believe how good the Norwegians have become!
Thank you very much, I wish you where right. But I'm afraid we have some issues to solve with weak talent pool and lack of rinks and ice time. But lets wait and see. Maybe you are right
What you are saying, I think, is that hockey federations such as in Finland are satisfied with the status quo of getting a few peanuts from the NHL to chew on in exchange for preventing the development of a Finnish hockey identity, while at the same time agreeing to keeping Finland from competing with the parent companies, Canada and the US, on the international hockey map. So far, Finland has succeeded in that quest, and a few Finnish officials have pocketed the small cash presented by the NHL.
You have no idea how the transfer agreement works, do you? NHL pays the money to the IIHF who in turn give it to the national federations who in turn give to the team or teams who are entitled to he transfer money. There's no cut in between. There have been ZERO reports of teams not getting their transfer money.
Once again repeating points I've said numerous times before: that money is for every players, no matter what round they were drafted in. So even though one could say it's small for top 6 forward or top 4 dman but when it's the likes of Tommi Kivistö or Jussi Timonen whose absence went largely unnoticed (like I've said before, SaiPa were laughing all the way to the bank when Philly signed Jussi Timonen), it's beneficial to the teams. Second, when players goal is to play in the NHL, there is nothing the teams or federation can do to stop them from leaving nor do they have any intention to do so. Players always hold the card in this. The teams are better off getting that money (which is enough in Finnish hockey circles), than not getting it all.
Why is czech/slovak developing model on decline nowadays? Why was russian in past?
It is not fair to generalise, but there are thing which all these countries have in common.
1.Collapse of society due to fall of communism. Wild privatisation etc. So, no money for hockey=corruption
2.Everyone who was great (players/coaches) went abroad. No talent in slovak/czech/russian league. I mean coaches/players. How do you want to establish great developing enviroment if you dont have specialists (coaches/players)? Not possible.
Russia started to change the system by creating KHL-VHL-MHL model. Czech federation started the change last year I hope. Slovakia is doing nothing.
But there is NHL with its junior leagues (CHL) which still lure the best (or many of best) prospects. So, we are still in the same problem: How do you want to establish great developing enviroment if you dont have all best players/prospects?
Yes, it is not possible to keep all of them at home forever. On the other hand, it is not a need to play CHL. You have appropriate conditions at home, you have everything in your hands to be succesfull. Look at Orlov, Bobrovsky, Tarasenko - no CHL. Yes, Grigs/Yakupov can be used as opposition, but I am sure they would be the same good players if stayed. Where are Koko, Kabanov, Makarov, I cannot see them in NHL!
3.MHL will expand into central Europe to establish base for KHL. The same like CHL and Swedish/Finnish leagues are for NHL. What is different? CHL/NHL "steals" talent from europe, paying almost nothing for them. On the other hand, KHL/MHL will establish local teams in Slovakia,Hungary, Austria etc to support its development. What is better? Latter one for me. Only problem that national federations dont support this idea of MHL.
4.Swedes/Finns must realise that NHL is not fair to their clubs/federations. It is sad, they dont know it yet.
Just you to know, slovak clubs dont get any money from NHL for drafted player. Yes, we have transfer agreement with NHL, but dont have money.
Why is czech/slovak developing model on decline nowadays? Why was russian in past?
It is not fair to generalise, but there are thing which all these countries have in common.
1.Collapse of society due to fall of communism. Wild privatisation etc. So, no money for hockey=corruption
2.Everyone who was great (players/coaches) went abroad. No talent in slovak/czech/russian league. I mean coaches/players. How do you want to establish great developing enviroment if you dont have specialists (coaches/players)? Not possible.
Russia started to change the system by creating KHL-VHL-MHL model. Czech federation started the change last year I hope. Slovakia is doing nothing.
But there is NHL with its junior leagues (CHL) which still lure the best (or many of best) prospects. So, we are still in the same problem: How do you want to establish great developing enviroment if you dont have all best players/prospects?
Yes, it is not possible to keep all of them at home forever. On the other hand, it is not a need to play CHL. You have appropriate conditions at home, you have everything in your hands to be succesfull. Look at Orlov, Bobrovsky, Tarasenko - no CHL. Yes, Grigs/Yakupov can be used as opposition, but I am sure they would be the same good players if stayed. Where are Koko, Kabanov, Makarov, I cannot see them in NHL!
3.MHL will expand into central Europe to establish base for KHL. The same like CHL and Swedish/Finnish leagues are for NHL. What is different? CHL/NHL "steals" talent from europe, paying almost nothing for them. On the other hand, KHL/MHL will establish local teams in Slovakia,Hungary, Austria etc to support its development. What is better? Latter one for me. Only problem that national federations dont support this idea of MHL.
4.Swedes/Finns must realise that NHL is not fair to their clubs/federations. It is sad, they dont know it yet.
Just you to know, slovak clubs dont get any money from NHL for drafted player. Yes, we have transfer agreement with NHL, but dont have money.
I agree that there is nothing being done systematically, but lately there has been a number of cases of older (or retired) players starting their own youth programs with very decent quality. Cíger in Bratislava comes to my mind (his one is special since it's free), Sekeráš in Dubnica, Bartečko and a couple of other players in Poprad, Gáborík in Trenčín...
Why is czech/slovak developing model on decline nowadays? Why was russian in past?
It is not fair to generalise, but there are thing which all these countries have in common.
1.Collapse of society due to fall of communism. Wild privatisation etc. So, no money for hockey=corruption
2.Everyone who was great (players/coaches) went abroad. No talent in slovak/czech/russian league. I mean coaches/players. How do you want to establish great developing enviroment if you dont have specialists (coaches/players)? Not possible.
Russia started to change the system by creating KHL-VHL-MHL model. Czech federation started the change last year I hope. Slovakia is doing nothing.
But there is NHL with its junior leagues (CHL) which still lure the best (or many of best) prospects. So, we are still in the same problem: How do you want to establish great developing enviroment if you dont have all best players/prospects?
Yes, it is not possible to keep all of them at home forever. On the other hand, it is not a need to play CHL. You have appropriate conditions at home, you have everything in your hands to be succesfull. Look at Orlov, Bobrovsky, Tarasenko - no CHL. Yes, Grigs/Yakupov can be used as opposition, but I am sure they would be the same good players if stayed. Where are Koko, Kabanov, Makarov, I cannot see them in NHL!
3.MHL will expand into central Europe to establish base for KHL. The same like CHL and Swedish/Finnish leagues are for NHL. What is different? CHL/NHL "steals" talent from europe, paying almost nothing for them. On the other hand, KHL/MHL will establish local teams in Slovakia,Hungary, Austria etc to support its development. What is better? Latter one for me. Only problem that national federations dont support this idea of MHL.
4.Swedes/Finns must realise that NHL is not fair to their clubs/federations. It is sad, they dont know it yet.
Just you to know, slovak clubs dont get any money from NHL for drafted player. Yes, we have transfer agreement with NHL, but dont have money.
Totally agree. I think the money problems same here. I'm not sure to be honest, but everybody knows about Mrazek, Stransky etc.
The bold part - I think it was started maybe 5 years ago or so.
Yeah and new Pouzar stadium in České Budějovice for economically poor families (kids) same as it was Kučera brothers stadium in Letňany (Prague) a years ago (Jakub Vrana is the best product since these times)
I agree that there is nothing being done systematically, but lately there has been a number of cases of older (or retired) players starting their own youth programs with very decent quality. Cíger in Bratislava comes to my mind (his one is special since it's free), Sekeráš in Dubnica, Bartečko and a couple of other players in Poprad, Gáborík in Trenčín...
Do you mean that former/current players to invest own money into training camps/rinks/academies? Yes, it is great they do that. But, is it enough? What has been SZLH doing? I can not see anything.
On the other hand, CSLH invests into academies, rules that every academy must play international games etc. You have reports from NT games/camps, support MHL project in KV. You can claim that we had Tatranski Vlci in past. Yes, we had, so why did not SZLH save them last summer? Because of Slovan´s plans to join MHL later? Yes, can be, I support the idea, I dont case if it is Slovan or SZLH jr team. The sad thing is that other slovak clubs (Dukla, Kosice) are not interesting (or SZLH is against)
Russia is investing into juniors from public budget (via KHL), not from player´s resources. You to know, in Russia state-owned companies have "social projects", developing of sport is part of it. Rosneft invested cca 570 milions euro in such projects in 2012. How much money do slovak firms invest into sport? State-owned or not.
Totally agree. I think the money problems same here. I'm not sure to be honest, but everybody knows about Mrazek, Stransky etc.
???
Quote:
The bold part - I think it was started maybe 5 years ago or so.
Ok, I am not sure, dont follow it so close. I am not sure if 5, I could agree with 3. The proces started when Lener came back to be head it the project.
Do you mean that former/current players to invest own money into training camps/rinks/academies? Yes, it is great they do that. But, is it enough? What has been SZLH doing? I can not see anything.
On the other hand, CSLH invests into academies, rules that every academy must play international games etc. You have reports from NT games/camps, support MHL project in KV. You can claim that we had Tatranski Vlci in past. Yes, we had, so why did not SZLH save them last summer? Because of Slovan´s plans to join MHL later? Yes, can be, I support the idea, I dont case if it is Slovan or SZLH jr team. The sad thing is that other slovak clubs (Dukla, Kosice) are not interesting (or SZLH is against)
Russia is investing into juniors from public budget (via KHL), not from player´s resources. You to know, in Russia state-owned companies have "social projects", developing of sport is part of it. Rosneft invested cca 570 milions euro in such projects in 2012. How much money do slovak firms invest into sport? State-owned or not.
I know, I fully agree with you, I was just saying that something is being done. Not enough, better than nothing.
I mean no money for Vitkovice for these kids. Or why they obstruct them for international tournaments ???
ok, now I see. I remember Tatar case. Now it is a joke because his agent was called Neveriš (in english "you dont believe something" or so). So, if you are GM of slovak club, dont believe a guy called like this
Interesting to note that 3 of the last 4 CHL player of the week (quite a high honour) have been awarded to Russian guys (Zlobin, Zykov, and this week Gogolev).
You have no idea how the transfer agreement works, do you? NHL pays the money to the IIHF who in turn give it to the national federations who in turn give to the team or teams who are entitled to he transfer money. There's no cut in between. There have been ZERO reports of teams not getting their transfer money.
Once again repeating points I've said numerous times before: that money is for every players, no matter what round they were drafted in. So even though one could say it's small for top 6 forward or top 4 dman but when it's the likes of Tommi Kivistö or Jussi Timonen whose absence went largely unnoticed (like I've said before, SaiPa were laughing all the way to the bank when Philly signed Jussi Timonen), it's beneficial to the teams. Second, when players goal is to play in the NHL, there is nothing the teams or federation can do to stop them from leaving nor do they have any intention to do so. Players always hold the card in this. The teams are better off getting that money (which is enough in Finnish hockey circles), than not getting it all.
I'm not talking at all about the mechanics of how the 250k is distibuted to the country of origination. I could care less about that. I'm talking about how the NHL pays nothing at all to the hockey apparatus that developed European talent - lets use Finland as an example - in exchange for exclusive property ownership rights for NA corporations. It no doubt cost the taxpayers and consumers of Finland a fair amount to provide the resources and facilities (rinks, coaches, etc) necessary to develop the Jari Kurris and Teemu Selannes. Look at the tens of millions of revenue these star players generate, and look at the pennies that the NHL sends back for the right to own them.
In so doing, the NHL accomplishes two things" (1) it locks up most of the world's valuable hockey talents, and (2), most importantly, it successfully suppresses the capability for the development of competitiors to vie for control of the world hockey market. No one is blaming the NHL for crushing all global competitors - thats just smart business. And maybe for a country like Finland, the status quo is the best they can ever hope for. Maybe its Jari Kurri and Teemu Selanne, and then the talent pool runs dry. But don't imply that existing transfer agreements are a good deal and worth preserving - that's ridiculous.
I'm not talking at all about the mechanics of how the 250k is distibuted to the country of origination. I could care less about that. I'm talking about how the NHL pays nothing at all to the hockey apparatus that developed European talent - lets use Finland as an example - in exchange for exclusive property ownership rights for NA corporations. It no doubt cost the taxpayers and consumers of Finland a fair amount to provide the resources and facilities (rinks, coaches, etc) necessary to develop the Jari Kurris and Teemu Selannes. Look at the tens of millions of revenue these star players generate, and look at the pennies that the NHL sends back for the right to own them.
In so doing, the NHL accomplishes two things" (1) it locks up most of the world's valuable hockey talents, and (2), most importantly, it successfully suppresses the capability for the development of competitiors to vie for control of the world hockey market. No one is blaming the NHL for crushing all global competitors - thats just smart business. And maybe for a country like Finland, the status quo is the best they can ever hope for. Maybe its Jari Kurri and Teemu Selanne, and then the talent pool runs dry. But don't imply that existing transfer agreements are a good deal and worth preserving - that's ridiculous.
Not sure if you understand how Finnish hockey is built. The parents pay for the hockey up until C-junior level, where at least the SM-Liiga clubs pay for the equipment etc. Everyone pays for the license which is basically an insurance payment. Use of rinks isn't free, they are owned by cities, towns and municipals. They're often used for other purposes as well, not just for hockey.
The latter paragraph is almost too tinfoil hat stuff to comment on but do you actually think NHL thinks of other European leagues as competition? What are they competing on? Like I said, players always hold the cards, they want to play in the league which offers best competition and money. There is ZERO thing the clubs or federations can do to stop it nor do they even have any desire to do so. That is a fact.
