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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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01-24-2013, 01:47 PM
  #201
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There is ZERO thing the clubs or federations can do to stop it nor do they even have any desire to do so. That is a fact.
not true.

If all euro federations act like KHL/Russia .. making pressure on NHL/CHL, there would be more fair conditions for euro clubs. Yes, it would not stop luring talent to CHL/NHL, but money for euro clubs would be more fair. Finns/Swedes dont understand it.

I fully support Yakushev72

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01-24-2013, 03:58 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I don't know if your characterization of the Russian junior system is correct. Right now, MHL A and B teams are primarily owned and operated by their corresponding KHL/VHL sponsoring teams. This is different, I believe, from the CHL, which is an independent entity. Certainly, they would like to develop fan interest to the point where the league became economically self-sustaining, but that will not happen in the next few years, and the sponsorship of parent teams is presumed to be needed for the foreseeable future. Junior hockey doesn't have the same kind of following in Russia as in Canada.
I understand that for the foreseeable future the MHL system will not be self sustaining, just as the KHL is not currently self sustaining, but the MHL system seems to be an attempt to replicate the CHL in almost every aspect except for the old school style of these clubs already owning these players at that age, instead of a real draft.

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01-24-2013, 03:58 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I'm not talking at all about the mechanics of how the 250k is distibuted to the country of origination. I could care less about that. I'm talking about how the NHL pays nothing at all to the hockey apparatus that developed European talent - lets use Finland as an example - in exchange for exclusive property ownership rights for NA corporations. It no doubt cost the taxpayers and consumers of Finland a fair amount to provide the resources and facilities (rinks, coaches, etc) necessary to develop the Jari Kurris and Teemu Selannes. Look at the tens of millions of revenue these star players generate, and look at the pennies that the NHL sends back for the right to own them.

In so doing, the NHL accomplishes two things" (1) it locks up most of the world's valuable hockey talents, and (2), most importantly, it successfully suppresses the capability for the development of competitiors to vie for control of the world hockey market. No one is blaming the NHL for crushing all global competitors - thats just smart business. And maybe for a country like Finland, the status quo is the best they can ever hope for. Maybe its Jari Kurri and Teemu Selanne, and then the talent pool runs dry. But don't imply that existing transfer agreements are a good deal and worth preserving - that's ridiculous.
The NHL simply doesn't have the money to pay ridiculous transfer fees though, it is simply not there the way it is in the Premier League or Barcelona etc

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01-24-2013, 04:23 PM
  #204
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The NHL simply doesn't have the money to pay ridiculous transfer fees though, it is simply not there the way it is in the Premier League or Barcelona etc
you dont have money, you dont have best players. Simple. I have nothing against NHL as best league in planet. There must be best league of every sport, I dont care if it is russian, asian, american league. I have problem with NHL only due to UNFAIR transfer policy towards rest of world (Europe).It is sad that some euro nations dont try to change it.

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01-24-2013, 04:25 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
I understand that for the foreseeable future the MHL system will not be self sustaining, just as the KHL is not currently self sustaining, but the MHL system seems to be an attempt to replicate the CHL in almost every aspect except for the old school style of these clubs already owning these players at that age, instead of a real draft.
I totally agree that the MHL would like to replicate the structure that the CHL has of 60 high quality, highly competitive teams to form a talent pool from which the KHL and VHL could draw on. I think we are on the same page. I was just pointing out what you already know, which is the MHL is not ready to be financially viable on its own yet.

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01-24-2013, 04:34 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
The NHL simply doesn't have the money to pay ridiculous transfer fees though, it is simply not there the way it is in the Premier League or Barcelona etc
The fact is that the NHL is drowning in money, and is capable of paying vastly higher transfer fees for premium talents like Malkin or Ovechkin, who will generate hundreds of millions in revenues for the league. The reason that they don't pay other federations the true value of what has been developed at the expense of other nations is that they don't have to. They can get away with owning their valuable assets for a few pennies - why not? As I said before, its smart business, because it allows them to snuff out any other competitor enterprise before it can get going. That's why the longer the KHL survives, even in imperfect form, the greater the chance that the strangle hold will eventually be broken.

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01-24-2013, 04:53 PM
  #207
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Not sure if you understand how Finnish hockey is built. The parents pay for the hockey up until C-junior level, where at least the SM-Liiga clubs pay for the equipment etc. Everyone pays for the license which is basically an insurance payment. Use of rinks isn't free, they are owned by cities, towns and municipals. They're often used for other purposes as well, not just for hockey.

The latter paragraph is almost too tinfoil hat stuff to comment on but do you actually think NHL thinks of other European leagues as competition? What are they competing on? Like I said, players always hold the cards, they want to play in the league which offers best competition and money. There is ZERO thing the clubs or federations can do to stop it nor do they even have any desire to do so. That is a fact.
I don't see what difference it makes as to whether its parents, cities, towns or municipalities that pay for the infrastructure of hockey in Finland. Bottom line, its Finns who pay! One way or another, all Finns. Whether Finland has any aspiration to go above the relatively low level of hockey entertainment they provide to the Finnish people now is up to the Finns to decide. What I am saying is that if Finns are convinced that they want to make sure that local pro hockey stays boring, dull, talent-less and not worth the effort to go out and watch, they are on the right track with the system currently in place.

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01-24-2013, 05:14 PM
  #208
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you dont have money, you dont have best players. Simple. I have nothing against NHL as best league in planet. There must be best league of every sport, I dont care if it is russian, asian, american league. I have problem with NHL only due to UNFAIR transfer policy towards rest of world (Europe).It is sad that some euro nations dont try to change it.
well this is where we create a slight problem. If the player is UFA he can go wherever he wants and everyone accepts this as true. The problem is that there is currently no regulation regarding RFA rights, so if a Russian player reaches the end of his entry deal at 20 or 21 like I think Tarasenko did, he could presumably just leave and the team gets no money because they do not hold the NA rights to him and as such he's not considered anything by the NHL, if the KHL can get the NHL to sign a deal with regards to RFA rights then perhaps it may work but that is extremely complicated and really unlikely to happen because there would be no benefit for the NHL.

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01-24-2013, 05:59 PM
  #209
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well this is where we create a slight problem. If the player is UFA he can go wherever he wants and everyone accepts this as true. The problem is that there is currently no regulation regarding RFA rights, so if a Russian player reaches the end of his entry deal at 20 or 21 like I think Tarasenko did, he could presumably just leave and the team gets no money because they do not hold the NA rights to him and as such he's not considered anything by the NHL, if the KHL can get the NHL to sign a deal with regards to RFA rights then perhaps it may work but that is extremely complicated and really unlikely to happen because there would be no benefit for the NHL.
The NHL has already made it clear that if the RHF wants a transfer agreement with them, they'll have to accept what is already in existence. Under no circumstances will the RHF accept the status quo, especially when the KHL is attempting to sink roots. It doesn't benefit the RHF or KHL to have the best Russian players heading off to the NHL. where they cannot entertain the Russian fans, in exchange for loose change that the NHL is offering. Luckily, there is no mood in Russia to accept the transfer agreement currently in place. Especially now that it is the KHL that is taking up the task of funding the development of youth hockey where the KHL exists. They are paying for it, and they will not give it away cheap anytime soon.

Hopefully, the day will never come when they have anything other than an agreement that benefits Russia equally with Canada and the US. The issue is not the petty cash that the NHL is offering. If Russians are going to pay for hockey development, then they deserve to reap the fruits of their investments.

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01-24-2013, 06:17 PM
  #210
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Why is there a rumour about MHL expanson to central Europe? Yes, KHL needs to establish a junior feeder league. Why in Europe? Why not only in Russia? IMO it is due to KHL expansion to Europe. Slovan/Lev and newcomers need junior team in GOOD jr. league. MHL european division is ideal solution. This can stop current situation when czech/slovak kids moving to CHL/Sweden. Everybody understands this, it is creation of hockey system for KHL.

BUT, the most important thing is influence in IIHF. Look, the most powerfull person is slovak hockey is still president of Slovan. Slovan wants to join MHL within 2 years. Do you think that president of Slovan wants the best slovak kids to move to CHL? No, he wants to play for his MHL team in Bratislava. So, why should slovak hockey federation sign new IIHF-NHL transfer agreement if the opinion of most powerfull person is againt it? The same can happen in every country where KHL/MHL is/will be.

And dont forget, Fasel is not NHL puppet anymore

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01-24-2013, 07:20 PM
  #211
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NHL is a myth, well advocated for, very well advertised. Everybody wants to be a part of that myth and NHL doesn't need to pay anything at all or hardly anything to its European feeder leagues, which provide them with world class all-stars generating millions and millions dollars profit.

Something seems a bit unfair? I think so.

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01-24-2013, 07:22 PM
  #212
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NHL is a myth, well advocated for, very well advertised. Everybody wants to be a part of that myth and NHL doesn't need to pay anything at all or hardly anything to its European feeder leagues, which provide them with world class all-stars generating millions and millions dollars profit.

Something seems a bit unfair? I think so.
It is not that the NHL is the myth, it's that hockey beyond the wall collapsed with the wall. It is better now but it is still no NHL and the developmental system is still no where near what the CHL can offer.

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01-24-2013, 07:30 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
It is not that the NHL is the myth, it's that hockey beyond the wall collapsed with the wall. It is better now but it is still no NHL and the developmental system is still no where near what the CHL can offer.
by the wall u mean former USSR? well NHL played a major roll in the collapse, taking all the best for pennies, players of historical caliber. By myth i mean a well advertised product, beyond what it really is, seemingly available for everyone, while it's not - a myth for the most it is.

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01-24-2013, 07:32 PM
  #214
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It is not that the NHL is the myth, it's that hockey beyond the wall collapsed with the wall. It is better now but it is still no NHL and the developmental system is still no where near what the CHL can offer.
Kidding, right?

This developing system is capable to raise WORLD superstars. No need for Swedes/Finns/Russian to play CHL anymore. They play CHL due to PR/agents/russian factor as was written earlier.

Yes, czechs/germans/slovaks are another story.

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01-24-2013, 07:48 PM
  #215
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by the wall u mean former USSR? well NHL played a major roll in the collapse, taking all the best for pennies, players of historical caliber. By myth i mean a well advertised product, beyond what it really is, seemingly available for everyone, while it's not - a myth for the most it is.
Russian players had wanted to play in the NHL for years before that. Tretiak tried to get permission to play for the Canadiens near the end of his career, I think around 1985 or so. At the time the pay was far better in the NHL then anywhere else in the world.

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01-24-2013, 07:51 PM
  #216
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I don't see what difference it makes as to whether its parents, cities, towns or municipalities that pay for the infrastructure of hockey in Finland. Bottom line, its Finns who pay! One way or another, all Finns. Whether Finland has any aspiration to go above the relatively low level of hockey entertainment they provide to the Finnish people now is up to the Finns to decide. What I am saying is that if Finns are convinced that they want to make sure that local pro hockey stays boring, dull, talent-less and not worth the effort to go out and watch, they are on the right track with the system currently in place.
There's plenty of talent in SM-Liiga for the resources the teams have at their disposal. You have this delusional idea that there's something Finns could do to limit the players movement without getting into a fight with the SM-Liiga PA, Finnish/EU labor laws not to mention the players desire to seek better pay and competition, feel free to list such actions.

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01-24-2013, 07:53 PM
  #217
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Kidding, right?

This developing system is capable to raise WORLD superstars. No need for Swedes/Finns/Russian to play CHL anymore. They play CHL due to PR/agents/russian factor as was written earlier.

Yes, czechs/germans/slovaks are another story.
Oh it is definitely capable of it, Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, the Sedin's, Sundin etc. There is definitely the Russian factor that is still a major concern for a lot of NHL teams and then there is the question of whether the playstyle that they have used will work in the NHL and for some guys it simply doesn't. The other big reasons that NHL teams prefer CHL players is the longer season and the physicality of the league compared to European leagues. Also if you're a borderline 2nd-3rd liner in the NHL you probably have a better shot through the CHL if that is your dream rather than sticking it out in Europe until you're 25-26 as at that point they basically know what they are getting

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01-24-2013, 08:07 PM
  #218
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I like this canadian/NHL propaganda. So funny.

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01-24-2013, 08:27 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Coramoor View Post
Russian players had wanted to play in the NHL for years before that. Tretiak tried to get permission to play for the Canadiens near the end of his career, I think around 1985 or so. At the time the pay was far better in the NHL then anywhere else in the world.
Clearly NHL is the best league out there - infrastructure, pr, accommodations, and the myth, the Russians then, were as fooled as the Russians now, but for different reasons. Then they'd be happy to make a buck and not practice for 330 days a year with someone watching over every move, today they are fooled by other means.

The thing that hasn't changed - Russia now and USSR then produce exellent players that NHL is dreaming to get their hands on, because the generate revenue, they are original, they are not the robocops the Canadians usually are.

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01-24-2013, 10:08 PM
  #220
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Clearly NHL is the best league out there - infrastructure, pr, accommodations, and the myth, the Russians then, were as fooled as the Russians now, but for different reasons. Then they'd be happy to make a buck and not practice for 330 days a year with someone watching over every move, today they are fooled by other means.

The thing that hasn't changed - Russia now and USSR then produce exellent players that NHL is dreaming to get their hands on, because the generate revenue, they are original, they are not the robocops the Canadians usually are.
Robocops you say? Please tell me more !

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01-24-2013, 10:09 PM
  #221
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The thing that hasn't changed - Russia now and USSR then produce exellent players that NHL is dreaming to get their hands on, because the generate revenue, they are original, they are not the robocops the Canadians usually are.
lol

Not so many robocops as it was past the walls and myth times.

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01-24-2013, 10:10 PM
  #222
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Russian players had wanted to play in the NHL for years before that. Tretiak tried to get permission to play for the Canadiens near the end of his career, I think around 1985 or so. At the time the pay was far better in the NHL then anywhere else in the world.
That is just Canadian NHL drivel! What do you mean that Tretiak "tried to get permission" to play for the Montreal Canadiens? What efforts can you demonstrate that he made? Tretiak retired from hockey after the 1984 Olympics, so what "efforts" did he make in 1985 to join the Canadiens? You are just accepting in blind faith that the Canadian media outlets that you pay attention to are feeding you the right propaganda. How could someone who retired from the sport, with a host of official delegation appointments and duties to bask in, want to launch a new career with the Canadiens?

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01-24-2013, 10:18 PM
  #223
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Honestly, why do Europeans/Russian wants to play NHL? Due to Stanley Cup and mighty league or money/paychecks? Money is answer, today are money in NHL, but will it be forever?

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01-24-2013, 10:22 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
That is just Canadian NHL drivel! What do you mean that Tretiak "tried to get permission" to play for the Montreal Canadiens? What efforts can you demonstrate that he made? Tretiak retired from hockey after the 1984 Olympics, so what "efforts" did he make in 1985 to join the Canadiens? You are just accepting in blind faith that the Canadian media outlets that you pay attention to are feeding you the right propaganda. How could someone who retired from the sport, with a host of official delegation appointments and duties to bask in, want to launch a new career with the Canadiens?
Agree. He was not trying to get permission. That was the only way how it worked in these times. Ufff common memories...


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01-24-2013, 11:01 PM
  #225
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Honestly, why do Europeans/Russian wants to play NHL? Due to Stanley Cup and mighty league or money/paychecks? Money is answer, today are money in NHL, but will it be forever?
So as long as the economy stays strong, obviously.. Who knows what will happen years from now but I don't expect it to just collapse suddenly.

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